"You might say this [modern cosmological discoveries] would make [scientists] more inclined to accept religious views on the origin of the world. But their materialism is so deeply imbued in them - and I would count myself also as affected by this feeling - that the general response has been simply to avoid considering the implications." -- Robert Jastrow
Why Did God Create Us?
- Thread starter Mrhero54
- Start date
Please don't quote unless you actually have a point. People have gone over on this site many and many times as to the differences between the scientist and theist view of 'creation'. Science is looking for 'how' and religion is more towards the 'why'.
The problem is that there are billions of people with religious views different then yours, and no convincing way to choice between them. Hell, there isn't any reason to choose at all because they may all be wrong. We examine the idea of the supernatural to see if perhaps there is any truth. The problem comes from those who assume their opinions are correct, without reviewing them fully from a new perspective, and lending equal creedance to other views.
The problem is that there are billions of people with religious views different then yours, and no convincing way to choice between them. Hell, there isn't any reason to choose at all because they may all be wrong. We examine the idea of the supernatural to see if perhaps there is any truth. The problem comes from those who assume their opinions are correct, without reviewing them fully from a new perspective, and lending equal creedance to other views.
Alas, tis always the way.....
You Gomer are right- completely undeniably correct- 100% without doubt perfectly accurate. The rest of us are complete fucking turkeys. Amen man, you're a fucking hero. Can i get your autograph?
The problems i find are that for a man with absolute knowledge of the facts your proving of such is non existant, your show of evidence is meager and based upon the writing of others- people you don't know and never will, and your attitude at the end is 'sour' to say the least. You haven't answered any relevant question on here in order to give us 'wrong people' further insight. Instead you label us all as givers of fairy tales and run away into the night.
Most would explain this as your fear of asking new questions and finding new answers. I'll explain it as your lack of compassion for the 'wrong people'. If i had the power of being completely and totally undeniably correct i sure wouldn't rely on the word of dead shepherds and i wouldn't resort to telling people they speak fairy tales. If i actually did know the undeniable facts, like you do, i wouldn't even be on this forum debating the issue and saying 'i believe' every other sentence.
In fact i am wholly surprised by your comments on this thread. For a guy who knows the absolute truth and deems all our suggestions as mere fairy tales i ponder this:
Why ask how? YOU know how. Why ask the fucking questions when you obviously know the answer. Why come on this forum and ask blatant simpletons like us for answers? Bizarre...
You found your answer:
"And god said it was so, and it was so.."
That's good enough for you because George the goat farmer said so 2000 years ago. That to you is absolute proof and so be it... Your search is over, you have found the truth all you now need to do is sit down and wait to die so you can live all over again- but this time with a purpose.
Congratulations.
P.S Thanks for not having the courage or conviction of your words to answer one single question put forth in this thread. If they are too much for you to answer then fair enough, we're all just pathetic little humans. If however you didn't answer by choice you must ask yourself if there's doubt to your own claims in your heart. Denying that which really hides within yourself is a shame. It should be allowed the right to opinion.
You Gomer are right- completely undeniably correct- 100% without doubt perfectly accurate. The rest of us are complete fucking turkeys. Amen man, you're a fucking hero. Can i get your autograph?
The problems i find are that for a man with absolute knowledge of the facts your proving of such is non existant, your show of evidence is meager and based upon the writing of others- people you don't know and never will, and your attitude at the end is 'sour' to say the least. You haven't answered any relevant question on here in order to give us 'wrong people' further insight. Instead you label us all as givers of fairy tales and run away into the night.
Most would explain this as your fear of asking new questions and finding new answers. I'll explain it as your lack of compassion for the 'wrong people'. If i had the power of being completely and totally undeniably correct i sure wouldn't rely on the word of dead shepherds and i wouldn't resort to telling people they speak fairy tales. If i actually did know the undeniable facts, like you do, i wouldn't even be on this forum debating the issue and saying 'i believe' every other sentence.
In fact i am wholly surprised by your comments on this thread. For a guy who knows the absolute truth and deems all our suggestions as mere fairy tales i ponder this:
Why ask how? YOU know how. Why ask the fucking questions when you obviously know the answer. Why come on this forum and ask blatant simpletons like us for answers? Bizarre...
You found your answer:
"And god said it was so, and it was so.."
That's good enough for you because George the goat farmer said so 2000 years ago. That to you is absolute proof and so be it... Your search is over, you have found the truth all you now need to do is sit down and wait to die so you can live all over again- but this time with a purpose.
Congratulations.
P.S Thanks for not having the courage or conviction of your words to answer one single question put forth in this thread. If they are too much for you to answer then fair enough, we're all just pathetic little humans. If however you didn't answer by choice you must ask yourself if there's doubt to your own claims in your heart. Denying that which really hides within yourself is a shame. It should be allowed the right to opinion.
"Why did God create us?" according to Paul
Acts 17
24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.
26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.
27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.
Please note, I'm not trying to show a "right" or "wong" about this, so Snakelord: no need to repost. The post takes as a premise that God created us, and asks 'why'? The debate here is not which option suits whom the most. The question might stretch as far as 'which possibility is more probable', but since we are talking about 'God', we can only say what we have learned. Gomer can quote Jastrow, you can quote Hawking, Cris can talk about abiogenesis, and I may quote the Bible. In the end, we all ended up on earth one way or the other.
We are also not here to debate whose conviction is the strongest. Like Gomer, I am also convinced that God has created more than just drones of people, He created relationships. I can also be convinced that He created other parallel universes and that this one "evolved" from them - I just don't believe it was spontanious in a natural sense.
It was not necessary for God to create people, just as it is not necessary for a couple to have children. Why do people have children? One of God's "labels" is 'Father', and not for no reason.
Acts 17
24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.
26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live.
27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.
Please note, I'm not trying to show a "right" or "wong" about this, so Snakelord: no need to repost. The post takes as a premise that God created us, and asks 'why'? The debate here is not which option suits whom the most. The question might stretch as far as 'which possibility is more probable', but since we are talking about 'God', we can only say what we have learned. Gomer can quote Jastrow, you can quote Hawking, Cris can talk about abiogenesis, and I may quote the Bible. In the end, we all ended up on earth one way or the other.
We are also not here to debate whose conviction is the strongest. Like Gomer, I am also convinced that God has created more than just drones of people, He created relationships. I can also be convinced that He created other parallel universes and that this one "evolved" from them - I just don't believe it was spontanious in a natural sense.
It was not necessary for God to create people, just as it is not necessary for a couple to have children. Why do people have children? One of God's "labels" is 'Father', and not for no reason.
Okay, Let's talk all-knowing and what it implies.
Jenyar, you reasoned that people have children, but don't have to. But, the reasons people have children are all explainable, wanted to pass on their genes, bible says to be fruitful, Oops.. condom broke
, i want a child to love...etc. What gets me, is that God knows what it feels like to have humans running around worshipping him....even if we didn't exist he'd know what it feels like because he's God and all knowing.
And for that matter, he knows what everything feels like so why would he desire anything? If you know what every ice cream ever conceived taste like and had it a million times, why would you open an ice cream palor?
What motivates God to do anything? Humans are motivated by a number of things...hungar, love, curosity, etc. but none of the things that motivate humans can be applied to god.
So what moves a being that should be content...by his very definition, to do anything?
Jenyar, you reasoned that people have children, but don't have to. But, the reasons people have children are all explainable, wanted to pass on their genes, bible says to be fruitful, Oops.. condom broke
, i want a child to love...etc. What gets me, is that God knows what it feels like to have humans running around worshipping him....even if we didn't exist he'd know what it feels like because he's God and all knowing. And for that matter, he knows what everything feels like so why would he desire anything? If you know what every ice cream ever conceived taste like and had it a million times, why would you open an ice cream palor?
What motivates God to do anything? Humans are motivated by a number of things...hungar, love, curosity, etc. but none of the things that motivate humans can be applied to god.
So what moves a being that should be content...by his very definition, to do anything?
Jenyar,
In acts 17:27, when it says "God did this" I thought that the 'this' refered to why he setup the world the way he did. However, I see how it can just as easily be interpreted for 'this' to be 'created man'.
27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him
Assuming that this is refereing to the reasons for (not the methods of) creation, it sounds like God created man so that he wouldn't know everything. The key word is 'perhaps'. This argees with the free will opinion, and seems to make sense. To me, it says that God created us so that he may be surprised.
I am also convinced that God has created more than just drones of people, He created relationships.
Depending on what you mean by this I wil have to disagree. I seriously doubt that a God would need to tinker with his creation in order to create realationships. If we are designed creatures though, then He would have 'created relationships' indirectly by making his creations seek out relations.
I can also be convinced that He created other parallel universes and that this one "evolved" from them - I just don't believe it was spontanious in a natural sense.
Interesting, but why? I like the idea of 'God the tinkerer', but tinkering isn't compatable with all-knowing.
It was not necessary for God to create people, just as it is not necessary for a couple to have children. Why do people have children?
As MrHero pointed out, humans are motivated for fairly obvious reasons. I don't see how these motivations are applied to God.
In acts 17:27, when it says "God did this" I thought that the 'this' refered to why he setup the world the way he did. However, I see how it can just as easily be interpreted for 'this' to be 'created man'.
27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him
Assuming that this is refereing to the reasons for (not the methods of) creation, it sounds like God created man so that he wouldn't know everything. The key word is 'perhaps'. This argees with the free will opinion, and seems to make sense. To me, it says that God created us so that he may be surprised.
I am also convinced that God has created more than just drones of people, He created relationships.
Depending on what you mean by this I wil have to disagree. I seriously doubt that a God would need to tinker with his creation in order to create realationships. If we are designed creatures though, then He would have 'created relationships' indirectly by making his creations seek out relations.
I can also be convinced that He created other parallel universes and that this one "evolved" from them - I just don't believe it was spontanious in a natural sense.
Interesting, but why? I like the idea of 'God the tinkerer', but tinkering isn't compatable with all-knowing.
It was not necessary for God to create people, just as it is not necessary for a couple to have children. Why do people have children?
As MrHero pointed out, humans are motivated for fairly obvious reasons. I don't see how these motivations are applied to God.
Love
I can only just speculate, and I can't propose to defend God's motives for doing anything because it would be extremely presumptuous if I said I understood them fully. But my experience has given me a few insights that I hope are valuable.
MRHero: You're right that God would know what love and relationships are like even if we did not exist. Otherwise it would mean He created something He had no knowledge about. We see this in "God the Father and God the Son" (who we know as Jesus). It's is a mystery to us how a singularity can experience duality (or trinity in this case), so we use human concepts such as Son, Father, King, Shepherd etc. to describe God's characteristics - possible because God revealed Himself to us as such, and because we have constructs like body, mind and soul to make sense of such abstract relationships.
The Bible says Jesus was the first 'man', because we were created in his image. That would mean that even though God has "all He needed" in terms of love and relationships (as we understand it), He decided that a dead universe wouldn't do, and created life as we know it. Like a gardener who sees a dead patch and decides to cultivate it - there is no logical reason except "love which acts" - which is, incidentally, the whole intention of God's law. 1.Love God with everything you possess and 2.love your neigbour as yourself. A gardner wouldn't have that 'urge' if he didn't have the knowledge and confidence of his craft, or felt the need (love?) to give that dead patch the gift of life.
Persol: I can't see God as a tinkerer, for the same reason I don't see my parents as "tinkerers". They would have been if they didn't love each oher and I was a "mistake". Which is why God rejects such relationships - it does not reflect His character (again, in which He created us). It is quite possible to live "according to God's will", but it takes some effort for us (we are tempted by lust, desire, revenge, hate... sins). As with Adam and Eve, the only difference between someone living as God intended them to, and someone who doesn't, is giving in to temptation and "disobedience".
I put disobedience in quotes, because we tend to rebel automatically against anything that demand "obedience" or assumes authority. But in God's case, He is our author and deserves our respect. Once again, what is the the fifth commandment? Honor your parents...
Yes, God is an artist (the very term "creativity" comes from "creating"). We are manifestations of His creativeness, but also of His love. The degree to which we hold to His example or deviate from it - according to our freedom and individuality - determine how much we are defective (as in "to defect, to AWOL") and "miss our function/calling" (the etymology of the word 'sin'). You can see that I'm describing a "path" - "the Way" as early Christians called it. At this point things start to become "cult-like", because every religion supposes "They have found the only Way" so I'll leave it there. I just want to show it in perspective by "reverse engineering" our creation by the Creator.
I realize I've said more than seems neccessary for providing "God's motives", but it's because I don't think it's possible to undertand them in isolation without examining what He created us as.
I can only just speculate, and I can't propose to defend God's motives for doing anything because it would be extremely presumptuous if I said I understood them fully. But my experience has given me a few insights that I hope are valuable.
MRHero: You're right that God would know what love and relationships are like even if we did not exist. Otherwise it would mean He created something He had no knowledge about. We see this in "God the Father and God the Son" (who we know as Jesus). It's is a mystery to us how a singularity can experience duality (or trinity in this case), so we use human concepts such as Son, Father, King, Shepherd etc. to describe God's characteristics - possible because God revealed Himself to us as such, and because we have constructs like body, mind and soul to make sense of such abstract relationships.
The Bible says Jesus was the first 'man', because we were created in his image. That would mean that even though God has "all He needed" in terms of love and relationships (as we understand it), He decided that a dead universe wouldn't do, and created life as we know it. Like a gardener who sees a dead patch and decides to cultivate it - there is no logical reason except "love which acts" - which is, incidentally, the whole intention of God's law. 1.Love God with everything you possess and 2.love your neigbour as yourself. A gardner wouldn't have that 'urge' if he didn't have the knowledge and confidence of his craft, or felt the need (love?) to give that dead patch the gift of life.
Persol: I can't see God as a tinkerer, for the same reason I don't see my parents as "tinkerers". They would have been if they didn't love each oher and I was a "mistake". Which is why God rejects such relationships - it does not reflect His character (again, in which He created us). It is quite possible to live "according to God's will", but it takes some effort for us (we are tempted by lust, desire, revenge, hate... sins). As with Adam and Eve, the only difference between someone living as God intended them to, and someone who doesn't, is giving in to temptation and "disobedience".
I put disobedience in quotes, because we tend to rebel automatically against anything that demand "obedience" or assumes authority. But in God's case, He is our author and deserves our respect. Once again, what is the the fifth commandment? Honor your parents...
Yes, God is an artist (the very term "creativity" comes from "creating"). We are manifestations of His creativeness, but also of His love. The degree to which we hold to His example or deviate from it - according to our freedom and individuality - determine how much we are defective (as in "to defect, to AWOL") and "miss our function/calling" (the etymology of the word 'sin'). You can see that I'm describing a "path" - "the Way" as early Christians called it. At this point things start to become "cult-like", because every religion supposes "They have found the only Way" so I'll leave it there. I just want to show it in perspective by "reverse engineering" our creation by the Creator.
I realize I've said more than seems neccessary for providing "God's motives", but it's because I don't think it's possible to undertand them in isolation without examining what He created us as.
Last edited:
Well it would seem to me god originally planned for us not to think. If you took the story of Genesis literally, (which there's no point not to if you do the same with the rest of the bible- i don't understand how anyone can just pick and choose what's literal and what isn't), then it was only down to Adam and Eve's eating from the apple of knowledge that humans ever became more than drones. God got royally pissed off with it and kicked man out of his garden for becoming a man of knowledge.
I suppose it's possible God knew we'd end up like we are today- some believers, some not etc and couldn't handle the prospect of that so he refused Adam and Eve the right to knowledge.
Of course though.... he should have already known they'd eat the apple and imo it was daft putting the tree there in the first place. Why take any chances? So it would further seem he did want them to eat the apple and kicked them out the garden of eden for doing something he wanted them to do anyway.
I suppose it's possible God knew we'd end up like we are today- some believers, some not etc and couldn't handle the prospect of that so he refused Adam and Eve the right to knowledge.
Of course though.... he should have already known they'd eat the apple and imo it was daft putting the tree there in the first place. Why take any chances? So it would further seem he did want them to eat the apple and kicked them out the garden of eden for doing something he wanted them to do anyway.
Have you ever taken a poem literally? The reading depends on what type of material you are reading. "The rest of the Bible" as you put it, is a collection of different types of material such as laws, genealogies, letters and poems.
Anyway, whether you read Genesis literally or metaphorically, the implications remain the same. The fruit (nowhere does it say 'apple') didn't magically give Adam and Eve the ability to think (They were naming animals longs before they ate from the tree of 'knowledge of good and evil'). But they realized two things: their disobedience, and the nakedness.
God didn't put us in a world where reality wasn't possible. The reality of paradise was that it depended on us being able to make choices. Even Adam and Eve weren't able to choose between good and evil, they would have been drones living in a dream world, and so would we. It was their free choice to disobey God and succumb to temptation. That choice had consequences. Just like our choices today have consequences.
If you read further in Genesis, you see that the other tree, "of the knowledge of life and death", is still out there. Guess what God wants us to choose? Compared to eternal death, we are still living in paradise.
Anyway, whether you read Genesis literally or metaphorically, the implications remain the same. The fruit (nowhere does it say 'apple') didn't magically give Adam and Eve the ability to think (They were naming animals longs before they ate from the tree of 'knowledge of good and evil'). But they realized two things: their disobedience, and the nakedness.
God didn't put us in a world where reality wasn't possible. The reality of paradise was that it depended on us being able to make choices. Even Adam and Eve weren't able to choose between good and evil, they would have been drones living in a dream world, and so would we. It was their free choice to disobey God and succumb to temptation. That choice had consequences. Just like our choices today have consequences.
If you read further in Genesis, you see that the other tree, "of the knowledge of life and death", is still out there. Guess what God wants us to choose? Compared to eternal death, we are still living in paradise.
If it is just a collection of letters, poems etc why do people feel the need to use it as proof of god? Instead what i find is people claiming one part as truly literal in meaning when it suits their belief and metaphorical when it comes under questioning from atheists, non believers etc.
Apple, banana, mango, cocoa bean, mince pie with onions don't really matter in basis of the discussion. As for naming animals..... Which? Diplodocus, T-rex, Velociraptor?
God said not to eat the fruit... They ate the fruit and realised nakedness and disobedience? As such they wouldn't have known they were being disobedient until after they'd already been disobedient thus can hardly be blamed for eating the 'fruit'. Surely god would be smart enough to know you cannot stop someone eating something if you tell them not to if they have no understanding of what being obedient is?
So because they simply didnt understand until it was too late the serpent suffers 'above all the livestock and wild animals', (even though it can hardly be called deception if Adam and Eve knew no better), the woman must suffer greatly with child birth and because of Adam: 'cursed is the ground etc etc'.
It's actually quite silly.. God commands someone not do something without realising they dont understand a word he's saying.
Well according to you, and the bible, it couldn't have been their choice to disobey because until they had disobeyed they didnt understand what disobeying was. Thus they weren't choosing to disobey anything. The only choice would come after they ate the apple, (banana, peach, plum, gooseberry, whatever), and learned what disobeying was, and that would be too late. God would do his holy judgment nonsense, curse the humans and send them packing.
Well i hope he's learnt since his last experiment. Let's say he wants us to choose something we have absolutely no knowledge of. How would we know we were right or wrong until it's too late?
You weren't thinking now. So you have to break a law before you can know whether it's right or wrong? I'm sure your local authorities would be interested in to know this.
The concept here is guilt. They weren't guilty of disobeying God until they disobeyed Him. Knowledge of good and evil implies *knowing* both. But they didn't have to do evil to know it's wrong.
The Bible isn't proof of God. Nowhere in the Bible do you find anything that sets out to "prove God's existence". It's a premise. It's just like what I'm saying is useless if you can't suspend your disbelief for an instant.
Do you hear me claiming different things, whether my basis for them is metaphorical or literal? You can learn from Cinderella if you wanted to, but you'd learn what people said. From the Bible you learn what God said and what Jesus said.
Finally, you do know life - you're alive aren't you? You see it all around you. But God told us we don't have to die if we listen to Him (yet again). But people still don't believe Him! You don't know death, but you know you could live without it (pun intended).
Do you have to die - bite the dust, kick the bucket, eat the apple - before you can find out you'd rather live wherever God intended you to live?
The concept here is guilt. They weren't guilty of disobeying God until they disobeyed Him. Knowledge of good and evil implies *knowing* both. But they didn't have to do evil to know it's wrong.
The Bible isn't proof of God. Nowhere in the Bible do you find anything that sets out to "prove God's existence". It's a premise. It's just like what I'm saying is useless if you can't suspend your disbelief for an instant.
Do you hear me claiming different things, whether my basis for them is metaphorical or literal? You can learn from Cinderella if you wanted to, but you'd learn what people said. From the Bible you learn what God said and what Jesus said.
Finally, you do know life - you're alive aren't you? You see it all around you. But God told us we don't have to die if we listen to Him (yet again). But people still don't believe Him! You don't know death, but you know you could live without it (pun intended).
Do you have to die - bite the dust, kick the bucket, eat the apple - before you can find out you'd rather live wherever God intended you to live?
Does that even have relevence? Why talk about my local police station in reference to the very beginnings of mankind? Big difference i think. However for the sake of argument... Someone who has never been taught certain 'wrong' things will remain unaware of the consequences until such a time where it's too late to do anything about it.
I suppose it's like a kid who touches an electricity pylon. he doesn't see the 'wrong' in doing so until he's been fried. Adam and Eve were blisfully unaware of any wrong doing merely because they knew nothing else. Someone says "Don't eat that fruit" but it's inconsequential if you have no knowledge of what obedience/disobedience are. Ok they were told not to but what difference would that make if they saw no wrong in doing the opposite of what they were told? (Disobeying a command without having any knowledge as to what disobeying actually is).
Why would they feel guilty? Guilt comes from disobeying an order. If someone says "dont eat that fruit" and you intend to disobey you will feel guilty, unless you have no idea that disobeying is wrong. Why do we even think they knew good from evil? You yourself said: (They were naming animals longs before they ate from the tree of 'knowledge of good and evil').
So.... The "tree of knowledge of good and evil". As such they wouldn't have understood the difference before they ate from the tree and were given the answer. All of a sudden they know what disobeying is, they know what good/evil and nakedness is but oops they're already in the doghouse.
Countless times i've seen on this forum alone people using the bible as proof of god. You may say it isn't, and i agree with you, but many people see otherwise. Without the bible as a great reference guide to the truth you probably wouldn't even know who jesus was or that god exists- yet because of that book you do... that is many peoples acceptance as proof. As for suspending my disbelief..... I don't disbelieve anything. I like to ask questions and seek answers, i see nothing wrong with that. I do not subscribe to any one thing simply because there's a lack of any fact for me to do so.
From the bible you learn what god said and what jesus said? Sure of that? Maybe you learn what a shepherd thought when he was tripping on melanin. That was my point above. You see i can't regard text in a book as proof of anything. As far as is possible jesus didnt say anything and neither did god. Words written by man. People are quite distinct when they say "God said this and did this.." Because a book says so. As such i concur many people regard the book as proof of..
Last time i checked.
God certainly didn't tell me anything. A book tells me god said.... but that doesnt mean he did.
Why believe something to such extent without proof? Show me the proof and i'll join you in church next sunday. Usually people start quoting bible text right about now...
Well it seems people fear dying. As long as i enjoy my life while im here i'm happy either way. If im unlucky and die before i consider my time as being 'up' all i can say is "oops". Ok sure i f****** hate the fact im gonna die....... Pisses me off to such extent i could go mad
I dont wanna die and never get to see how our planet progresses, all the things mankind accomplishes etc.... BUT I do not need to dream of eternal life. I do not need to dream about things after im gone from this place. I deal with it, accept it and put up with it.Maybe there isn't a god who doesn't want you to live anywhere because he doesn't exist. If this comes down to "do you have to die, bite the dust, ..." i will simply restate it is a bitch but such is life. Maybe there is a god who wants us to live elsewhere after we die but without actual fact of that would any sane person just throw all their eggs into that one basket? I deeply understand the fear of mortality we all suffer from but faith isn't the way i can do things no matter how much it settles the pain. Give me the proof- trust me i'd praise the lord as much as the next guy- he'd certainly be a saviour. proof please.....
Let me rephrase your question:
Prove to me that killing a human being is wrong.
Or for that matter, that killing a person is right. Instead of saying that I'm twisting your words, just give me a methodology of proving the above.
Don't you see? Adam and Eve certainly knew that God existed. He spoke to them saying "don't eat from that tree, or you will certainly die". But they did not believe Him. They didn't take God seriously, just as you aren't taking Him seriously right now. That's the issue. Through their disbelief, sin entered the picture and divided us from God.
The Bible (through people who experienced the events first hand) tells us how God sent Jesus to reconcile us with him. You studied Sumerian culture, and you can take it seriously even if it's older and less substantiated than the gospels. God raised Jesus - not even the Sumerian god Tammuz could raise itself. Only the God who gave life and give life. It is an Act of Will ... yet you would rather accept death because you dismiss the meaning of what happened?
The only sign - proof - you will get is the resurrection of Jesus. You already believe it happened. Why not ask what it meant?
Prove to me that killing a human being is wrong.
Or for that matter, that killing a person is right. Instead of saying that I'm twisting your words, just give me a methodology of proving the above.
Don't you see? Adam and Eve certainly knew that God existed. He spoke to them saying "don't eat from that tree, or you will certainly die". But they did not believe Him. They didn't take God seriously, just as you aren't taking Him seriously right now. That's the issue. Through their disbelief, sin entered the picture and divided us from God.
The Bible (through people who experienced the events first hand) tells us how God sent Jesus to reconcile us with him. You studied Sumerian culture, and you can take it seriously even if it's older and less substantiated than the gospels. God raised Jesus - not even the Sumerian god Tammuz could raise itself. Only the God who gave life and give life. It is an Act of Will ... yet you would rather accept death because you dismiss the meaning of what happened?
The only sign - proof - you will get is the resurrection of Jesus. You already believe it happened. Why not ask what it meant?
Ok individually i would see no specific right or wrong with either. If someone kills your child for example i would fully support someone who went and killed them. (that would determine both wrong and right but it's an individual perspective). God might disagree, that's his choice. Society on the other hand works completely differently. Killing a human being, no matter what the reason is undoubtedly wrong. We have grown up in that society and see no different. Adam and Eve had no society to learn from. There was a snake and god. One said one thing, one said the other. Without knowledge of which one actually determined right or wrong Adam and Eve were left with just the base curiosity.
I heard a story when i was younger about a man who condemned Adam and Eve for their betrayal to mankind. He spoke to his friend during supper who left the table and said "dont lift up the plate". Obviously curiosity is powerful and the man did. A mouse ran out etc etc etc yada yada...
In this context the man knew what he should or should not do. he has the understanding of obedience, has the knowledge of right and wrong and literally chose otherwise- you could say he was tempted by evil and fell for it.
However Adam had no knowledge of right from wrong, and didn't realise the inherent evil that comes with burning curiosity. As such he is free from blame for his actions, as is Eve. If god had have given Adam knowledge of good/evil, knowledge of obedience etc then Adam would be purely at fault. Unfortunately God put that knowledge in a fruit he said "do not eat". If we, as you said, have no understanding of death what understanding of it do you think Adam would have? So how is it consequential to say "you'll surely die"?
Either they had all this knowledge to begin with, did as they chose anyway and paid the price, or...
They didn't even understand the basics of godly/society morals and were punished for nothing. The simple fact they didn't know good from evil, right from wrong, obedience from disobedience before eating the fruit shows this to be more likely.
I take everything seriously. However just because leprechauns might exist doesn't mean i should put my entire life, soul and love into it. If you regard that as 'not taking him seriously' then fair enough, i agree. As such i ponder why you don't take other Gods seriously, i ponder why you don't take Loch ness monster seriously and so on.
(through people who might have or might not have experienced etc etc).
The bible is a book, it's not proof of fact. I've said this 5 times now but feel you don't see my point. I can't just 'accept' god sent jesus yada yada because a book says so or because anyone else says so. I'm sorry, but i require absolute proof.
Well i do like Sumerian writings and history but it in no way shows any of it to be fact. I use that info here specifically as a rebuttal to bible claims. Merely because the Sumerian writing is older and is shown to have been the basis of many religious texts thereafter it's as good an argument as any.
Just as an example:
If you were to say: Adam was real
I could say: But in Sumerian Adama means earth, dust as shown in Genesis, blood/red= Adom. Thus isn't it possible the translation took 'Adam' as a name instead of a meaning for the earth/dust that is spoken about in Genesis?
Doesn't tesify anything written is fact, merely serves as a question, a debate, and a possible comeback to claims. I thought that helped us progress and learn? You see....... none of this is fact- the bible, jesus being gods son or god existing. Without seeking, asking and debating i can't just sit down and accept. Thus i use any evidence or material to show a possible different reality. Doesn't mean it is reality- just a 'might or might not'. Once you understand that we're working on mights and might nots we 'might' progress further faster.
Damuzi, (Tammuz), failed yes, but there were many who succeeded. The story is of mortal alien beings who had some powers-Ok, Damuzi f***** up. The relevance is that Jesus is not the only story in history of beings being able to ressurrect from the dead. Why do we not just worship them like we worship Jesus? They all appear in ancient written text so why is one the son of god and the others are mere fiction stories? In Christian faith there's none other, save Jesus, who performed this miracle. That is widely accepted, and some people here say the whole religion rests on that very occurence. So... why do all the other stories of ressurrections remain fairy tale? This is the problem- 1,000,000 religions, each assuming their own beliefs to be the correct ones.
Comments such as "You must want to hear/see god", "You must search to truly find god.." etc are commonplace. That really isn't an answer to anything. People from all over the world say the same thing but all with different beliefs. With that way of thinking i could just as easily believe in leprechauns and say you must want to see them before you ever do. Can you see why that is not an answer?
I dont dismiss anything.... it's more a case of you just accepting. I can't jump into faith as readily as you do, my apologies i just require more than the average person.
You see... you miss the very concept of what i speak. Ressurrection or not is proof of nothing. By that basis i must accept Sumerian belief as total proof because they too mention ressurrections? If you answer 'no' why would i have to accept Jesus as proof?
As for asking what it means....... thats exactly what i am doing. You on the other hand just accept your version of the truth. If you can't see that within your own writing fair enough... i'm not here in order to open your eyes, im merely here to ask my own questions and find the absolute truth.
why did god create us
to torture us for eternity,obviously,since we are all sinners b/c A&E ate a fng aple,
seriously though,God as described by your religions doesnt/cannot exist,,
all I see is the infinite/eternal Universe that has always existed,in one form/shape or another,10 dimensional maybe,if you can imagine that,its all a chemical reaction,all these elements,atoms,quirks quarks,neutrinos,and who knows how many bazilons of other yet unknown forces make the whole chemical soup work,
saying that some super being made all this,begs the question :who made that being.
since all religions describe their God differently,means they are all just imaginary fairy tales.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
since no one can prove the existence of god,isn't that proof enough it doesn't exist?
to torture us for eternity,obviously,since we are all sinners b/c A&E ate a fng aple,
seriously though,God as described by your religions doesnt/cannot exist,,
all I see is the infinite/eternal Universe that has always existed,in one form/shape or another,10 dimensional maybe,if you can imagine that,its all a chemical reaction,all these elements,atoms,quirks quarks,neutrinos,and who knows how many bazilons of other yet unknown forces make the whole chemical soup work,
saying that some super being made all this,begs the question :who made that being.
since all religions describe their God differently,means they are all just imaginary fairy tales.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
since no one can prove the existence of god,isn't that proof enough it doesn't exist?
Re: why did god create us
Well this is a false statement. The improvment of Human technicality has made him think he has discovered everything in the world. Human being is still not sure whether there is another planet like Earth in the universe, whether there is live on this universe or not. Can u prove to me the nonexistent of live in this universe?
Can you safely say this statement?
" since no one can prove the existence of " live " in this universe, isn't that proof enough it doesn't exist?
Originally posted by Q25
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
since no one can prove the existence of god,isn't that proof enough it doesn't exist?
Well this is a false statement. The improvment of Human technicality has made him think he has discovered everything in the world. Human being is still not sure whether there is another planet like Earth in the universe, whether there is live on this universe or not. Can u prove to me the nonexistent of live in this universe?
Can you safely say this statement?
" since no one can prove the existence of " live " in this universe, isn't that proof enough it doesn't exist?
Answer to the original post
Mrhero54,
You kinda missed the point of loving...
Are you a father (or mother)? If you are, before having a kid, didn't you wonder how he/she would be? Didn't you love him/her before she was even born? The same with God. God Loves us since before we even existed. He imagined all of us and Love all of us even before we were born. He is our Father. He wants to Love and to be Loved. He IS Love. This is His nature, His personality.
He created us so that we could BE. He created us in order for us to enjoy life, not to kill each other. That's why He doesn't want us to sin in the first place, because when we sin, we hurt ourselves and/or others, and that makes our lives pretty bad. He has pretty good intentions with us. He want us to live in abundance. He wants us to live eternally. He wants everything that is good and perfect for us because He is our Father. He Love us unconditionally. If we do a mistake, He doesn't condemn us, instead He Loves us and cares about us. He stands His hand and reach towards us and help us back, like a father does with his child when he/she is walking his/her first steps.
God is our Father.
That's why He created us. He does want us to glorify Him, not for His sake, but for our own sake. Because the only way you can glorify Him is by living the Love life, the life of Loving one another. And by living this life, He is able to bless us in every way, because we become a pure vessel of His Spirit, and ultimatly, we become like Him. That's the other reason why He created us and that's also the greatest gift He can ever give to us.
So, God is our Father. He Loves us. Everything He does for us is for our best, even if we think that it is not. If you have any questions about how God act towards us, just remember that He is our Father, and you will probably be able to answer it.
Mrhero54,
You kinda missed the point of loving...
Are you a father (or mother)? If you are, before having a kid, didn't you wonder how he/she would be? Didn't you love him/her before she was even born? The same with God. God Loves us since before we even existed. He imagined all of us and Love all of us even before we were born. He is our Father. He wants to Love and to be Loved. He IS Love. This is His nature, His personality.
He created us so that we could BE. He created us in order for us to enjoy life, not to kill each other. That's why He doesn't want us to sin in the first place, because when we sin, we hurt ourselves and/or others, and that makes our lives pretty bad. He has pretty good intentions with us. He want us to live in abundance. He wants us to live eternally. He wants everything that is good and perfect for us because He is our Father. He Love us unconditionally. If we do a mistake, He doesn't condemn us, instead He Loves us and cares about us. He stands His hand and reach towards us and help us back, like a father does with his child when he/she is walking his/her first steps.
God is our Father.
That's why He created us. He does want us to glorify Him, not for His sake, but for our own sake. Because the only way you can glorify Him is by living the Love life, the life of Loving one another. And by living this life, He is able to bless us in every way, because we become a pure vessel of His Spirit, and ultimatly, we become like Him. That's the other reason why He created us and that's also the greatest gift He can ever give to us.
So, God is our Father. He Loves us. Everything He does for us is for our best, even if we think that it is not. If you have any questions about how God act towards us, just remember that He is our Father, and you will probably be able to answer it.