you are so clear (not).
you said that it doesn't matter what religion before or that religion is not required.
now you say that christ is needed.
do you mean honoring and living the moral teachings of christ?
Whose God Is Responsible????
- Thread starter quantumdarkness19
- Start date
you are so clear (not).
you said that it doesn't matter what religion before or that religion is not required.
now you say that christ is needed.
do you mean honoring and living the moral teachings of christ?
the reeks of human perspective..god is god..it is when we as humans try to describe him to others that differences creep in and the terms 'my/your' becomes attached to god.
i believe god doesn't care about religions..he cares what is in your heart..
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
And it is precisely that attitude that makes Christians so hateful. (The Muslim attitude is identical, only the details differ, so I don't mean to single out Christianity.)
If one sincerely believes that life is not temporary, that an invisible, illogical supernatural universe exists in which dead people will somehow continue oxymoronically to "live," and one also believes that people who don't share one's religion will spend that post-death eternity in abject misery, then the next step is very easy to take. Anyone with a sense of compassion will feel that it is absolutely mandatory to save those poor people from the results of their own errant ways.
It's like watching a child preparing to ride a skateboard down an embankment when you know there is a twelve-lane freeway on the other side. How can you not rush in and save him from his own stupidity?
The difference of course is that we are adults. But the jargon of Christianity makes it easy to ignore that important difference, since Christians are taught to think of themselves, and all adults, as "God's children." (I'm not familiar with the rhetoric of Islam so I'll leave it out of this paragraph.)
The evangelical imperative of Christianity (and of Islam) requires its followers to intercede in the way other people lead their lives. They are under a mandate to show everyone the error of their ways and to bring them into the Christian (or Muslim) community, where they will finally be safe from their own folly and will spend eternity "living" in peace and harmony with God, instead of rotting in the stinking heat of Hell.
This is the fundamental problem with the evangelical monotheistic religions of Abraham. They have constructed an alternative reality in which only the Christians (or Muslims) understand how the universe works, and in which they are required to save everyone else from making mistakes that will, literally, damn them to Hell.
If we're basically good people, honest, hard-working, caring for our children and our community, how could a good Christian (or Muslim) not feel compelled to save such basically good people from, in effect, riding our skateboards into twelve lanes of freeway traffic?
This is our problem! They regard us as inferior, as something lower than children (since they regard themselves as children), so the whole idea of "freedom" is irrelevant to them. Children have no right to freedom since they aren't mature enough to use it to make wise decisions.
This is what Christians (and Muslims) think of us. And this is why they should all go fuck themselves!
That is problamatic... to sesually stimulate ones self is somptin that Lori an other good Christans dont thank is moraly proper... hell... even i (a atheist) quit the masturbaton habit at 12 years old.!!!
that's part of it but i think it's also due to the fact they don't value morality as much as it appears.
why would membership in a club mean more than what a person actually does or is?
that totally defeats the purpose or essence of even jesus's teachings.
the bible also states that many will say that they did works in his/god's name etc (basically religious or view christ as a literal savior when what he was offering as a way for salvation was through the lesson/message) but it will tell them it never knew them and get out of my sight. owning god or owning jesus in one's mind is missing the point, it is the message.
this metaphor is a lesson on truth. anyone that would willingly accept rituals or a religious premise over what is actually true or valuable is not someone that is of any true ethics or substance. that was even symbolized by his run-ins with the pharisees. the problem with the bible is it's wording which is not understood except literally by most. when it says to be saved through christ, it means to understand and follow what he stood for. this is the problem with just the shallow ritual of accepting jesus christ into your heart with prayer and it's a done deal and jesus's spirit will magically inhabit yours and now you are saved because you sincerely believe. believe in what? they are seeing jesus/god as a way to absorb or be. in a way it's kind of using him, not actually respecting him. they are all taking it literally. it was all about moral lessons and he illustrated and used many examples to encourage people to consider beyond the surface, consider their conscience etc
you will often hear of religionists state that even a good person will go to hell just because they are not a christian. that's a very loaded statement and belief and reveals a hell of a lot about the source.
someone who truly understands the moral lessons of what christ was or lives it, would be more true than someone who just are joining christianity to save themselves from hell or they think it will. that is why they have so many bs doctrines like 'once saved, always saved' etc.
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I thank God-people tend to adjust ther beleifs to match the lifestyle they prefer... thats why thers so many contradictory beleifs which suposedly com from the sam God... makin "beleifs" little mor than a mish-mash of bs.!!!
"Beleifs are a dime a dozen an twice as cheep on Sunday."
~Auther Un-known.!!!
Hey fraggle, don't ride your skateboard down that embankment, there's 12 lanes of traffic on the other side.
Now you argue with me about the traffic. Tell me its not dangerous. Tell me its a hallucination. Tell me I'm crazy because I believe in traffic, and then bitch me out for telling you what to do.
Oh hell nevermind, go fuck yourself.
No I mean the actual christ. Christ isn't a religion, he's a man named jesus.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
It's not just "membership in a club." You're confusing Christianity with Judaism, at least the Reform movement: "It doesn't matter what you believe so long as you follow the rules." In Christianity, the most important rules are: 1) You must believe in God, and 2) You must believe that Jesus was and is his son.
This isn't "membership," this is who you are. Are you a person who can do that, and if so are you going to do it? If not then you will be in the wrong column on God's Naughty-Or-Nice List forever, and since after you die you will still be alive, forever really means forever.
Remember that we're talking about a god with such a big, fragile ego, that the most horrible thing imaginable to him is that somewhere on this planet there walks a human being who does not believe in him. Civilization, art, music, strong family values, nations coming together in peace, curing of disease... none of that matters if we are doing that instead of convincing all the unbelievers to be believers.
This is, arguably, the most important theme in Abrahamist mythology. It goes all the way back to the Jews, and that story is so powerful that every Abrahamist sect that has arisen since then has been solidly evangelical. Ever since the God of Abraham made himself known, his primary concern is to get humans to acknowledge his existence. Obviously we're also supposed to pledge our allegiance to him as an extra little boost to his fragile ego, but once we become aware of him we'll realize that he is so infinitely powerful (and so easily angered) that we will be lining up to pledge our allegiance.
God has always wanted his children to evangelize their faith to the rest of humanity. When the Jews were in bondage in Egypt (an event upon whose veracity, BTW, a great deal of doubt was cast just recently: apparently they were just migrant laborers who found good jobs), God made a deal with them: "I will free you from bondage, if you promise to evangelize the One True Faith, i.e. faith in Yours Truly, to the ends of the earth and convince every human being to be good Jews like you guys."
Of course the Jews nodded their heads vigorously, or whatever ritual was required, and made the promise. (This agreement is known as "The Covenant.")
Well we all know what didn't happen. Judaism is, in fact the only non-evangelical Abrahamic religion! Even the Rastafarians make an attempt at converting you when they're not busy getting high, and you don't even have to ask about the Mormons! (Whom I list separately because many Christians insist that Mormons aren't really Christians.)
The Jews broke the Covenant! I don't know if they originally intended to be evangelical and then gave up when they found out that just about everybody hated them and wasn't going to listen to their sermons, or if they had their fingers crossed when they made the promise. But they broke the dadgum thing.
And just look at how God responded to this affront. The history of the Jews has been a long list of "Really Awful Things That Can Happen To You." War, the destruction of the Temple (twice), occupation by various non-Jewish nations, the Diaspora, the thousand years of antisemitism that virtually defines European Christendom, the Holocaust, assimilation in friendly host countries becoming the biggest risk to the survival of the Jews as a community, and, finally, the British giving them a homeland without looking first to see if somebody was already living there.
God is really pissed off at the Jews and he's making an example of them so that no one will ever be as insolent as they were.
And the only thing he's pissed off about is that the Jews don't try to convince other people to believe in him! That's the most important thing to him in the universe.
So "membership in a club" has nothing to do with this. It is far more fundamental and far more dire. You have to believe in God or you will spend eternity in Hell standing on your head in warm shit. And if you do believe in God, you have to devote a considerable amount of time and effort tracking down people who don't and teaching them the error of their ways. Otherwise, well you might not go to Hell, but you won't get a window seat in Heaven and you'll be next to somebody who forgot that he's in Heaven and is still trying to convert you.
Oh yeah, I almost forgot, the Jews blew it for everybody so God raised the stakes. Now you don't have to just believe in God. You have to believe in Jesus too.
But they twist this around. It is not a test of ethics. It is a test of faith. Yes indeed believing in the fundamental tenets of Christianity requires taking leave of your senses. Are you willing to do this? In this sense it does become the "membership in a club" thing you brought up. It's like joining a street gang: you have to do something humiliating, debasing. Making that kind of a sacrifice proves your loyalty. Well sacrificing your rationality is proof of your loyalty to God and Jesus.
I must say that I hear just the opposite so often that it gives me hope. Several people have told Mrs. Fraggle and me, "You are more Christian than we are. You do the things that God wants us to do but we are too weak to follow through. You're not prejudiced, you loudly object to war, you are honest, you help the poor, you teach. I don't care what my preacher says. God will let you into Heaven because if you don't deserve to go then I certainly don't either."
^but i see that as more a result of their own particular psychology (as well as why they are attracted to a particular religion vs another) or want to have everyone believe in god or image of god, jesus christ and whatever doctrines that go with it they think are critical, for whatever reason.
you don't know why jesus is critical? it's because there's something wrong with us that we can't fix ourselves. obviously. and wouldn't we surely have done it by now?
good job clueless.
oh and btw, it's not that i give a shit whether it's "morally proper", i just think it's pathetic. a symptom of our condition. what i'm really trying to say is good job getting a wife.
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...good job clueless.
Ah shucks... thanks... it was about the 3rd (an last) time i had tryed to quit... an it realy wasnt all that dificult... well... until about the 6th day when i started bak up agan.!!!
Bwaahahahahaha<-----------
A-Man.TTT
birch (and fraggle you can listen in),
you're on my ass for scripture as if when i post it you'll say "oh, well now i believe you! what you've said must be true!" do you think i was born yesterday? i've had this conversation a million times. you want to read the bible? then read the fucking bible!
god told me to get my bible and read the book of revelations one night. and after i dusted it off, i did. and in the middle of it god told me that i was the woman in the story in ch 12, and the chosen lady in 2 john, and the tree of life later in the book, all in the middle of some whacked out spiritual experience that would have put most people in the hospital, so fuck you.
you want evidence and i'm telling you, that what happened to people in the bible happened to me! just the way it said it would, and for the same reasons, and by the same means, and it resulted in the same thing!
and i didn't ask for it that way for the same reasons you wouldn't but that's way it came, and i would die for that.
so don't fucking judge me. you might as well be religious!
you know when you'd really be fucked? if you had to live with me. and then you'd know me.
you're on my ass for scripture as if when i post it you'll say "oh, well now i believe you! what you've said must be true!" do you think i was born yesterday? i've had this conversation a million times. you want to read the bible? then read the fucking bible!
god told me to get my bible and read the book of revelations one night. and after i dusted it off, i did. and in the middle of it god told me that i was the woman in the story in ch 12, and the chosen lady in 2 john, and the tree of life later in the book, all in the middle of some whacked out spiritual experience that would have put most people in the hospital, so fuck you.
you want evidence and i'm telling you, that what happened to people in the bible happened to me! just the way it said it would, and for the same reasons, and by the same means, and it resulted in the same thing!
and i didn't ask for it that way for the same reasons you wouldn't but that's way it came, and i would die for that.
so don't fucking judge me. you might as well be religious!
you know when you'd really be fucked? if you had to live with me. and then you'd know me.
the point is everyone judges whether they realize it or not, in some way. you being of particular religion vs another automatically means there are beliefs which would render the other wrong or incorrect whether you tell that to their face or not. you said people are doomed without jesus christ.
the point is it's a farce for people of a religious persuasion to pretend they are not judgemental, biased or not fixated on their own views/beliefs. like you said, you keep mentioning jesus christ as your role model, even if there are others. there is a reason for that and why it appealed to you, chose it specifically instead of another philosophy or faith.
the rest of your post is i think more excuses. it's one thing to say you had an experience but you also claim it is confirmed by the bible as well a you are a christian but you get upset when people ask you for scripture for what you say related to your beliefs. it's because you make that claim, you will be held to it. you act like a victim when someone asks you for further clarification and you do a poor job of it. as a matter of fact, it seems you are not interested at all if another can understand but that you just spout your beliefs.
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this is an attempt to convince me that you're trying to understand? the bible? or me? are you in some third world country, or remote island, or backwoods place, where you have no resources? you're on the internet right now, and i know that i could read the entire bible online, plus have access to an overwhelming number of testimonies, opinions, and interpretations about it. so, you're sincerely trying to understand the bible? am i judging you, or am i asking you a legitimate and a relevant question?
you came out here speaking for me. telling me and everyone else exactly what i think, what i'm all about, what jesus is all about, and you don't know either one of us.
and what preposterous things have i told you? that law exists, and consequences according to it, some more desirable than others, depending on what you desire? that i have a personal relationship with god through christ? you know, the whole point of the bible? account after account after account after account of some of the many people who have heard the voice of god, had it change them and had it change their lives. the whole purpose of jesus is to have communion with god. what i have attested to is bible 101...a cover to cover summation that could easily be titled "the bible for dummies". and you've responded defensively, demanding scripture to back up what i'm saying...when it's the entire bible! pick a scripture! or better yet, read the whole thing and sincerely put it to the test like i did. may be difficult to do when you tend to bring up things like "what a psychologist may have to say about it" and "mental illness" in regards to my testimony. wouldn't it?
you still don't take responsiblity for representing your religion even though you claim it. evidently you don't have as much faith in it or you don't take it seriously.
it's so simple but you just refuse to get it. you think i've been speaking for everyone but i've just gone but what you've written but you speak for the entire concept of god in relation to christianity. and you keep thinking this is not in any way biased. you state that many have heard the voice of god or it changed their lives, and you mention christ. christianity is not the only religion. you don't own god but your religion thinks it does.
don't preach to me about tolerance. your arguments are like a jigsaw puzzle that's been flung around the room. none of your premises have any sense of order or your arguments are rather arbitrary.
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"representing my religion"? I LIVE BY FAITH IN A GOD I KNOW. i take god seriously.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
I judge you Christians only because you judge me and that judgment motivates you to regard me as a child who must be protected from the results of my own decisions. You have a campaign to turn everybody in the world into a Christian for our own good, whether we want it or not, because this figment of your imagination called "God" told you to do it.
You do not respect our rights. That makes you evil.
stereotyping.
there is way too much in that post that does not apply to ALL christians.
AND it also applies to the concept of projection..IE it is you who are doing this more than them.
you are fighting your own preconceived notion of what a christian is..and will not listen when a specific christian says they are not like that. and when you do, you will accuse them of not being very good christian.. so again who is passing the judgements out?
you are judging yourself and blaming the christians for doing it..