And the ''eli'' part is obviously Elohim, ''god''. Helios in Greek doesn't look all that important enough to say there is a link with Elohim. And it's certainly not who Jesus was calling for. In a strict sense, Jesus -- who may have been another form of God -- was still but a man. So our God was his God. This is why he called out the name of God.
Who was Jesus talking to when he said...
- Thread starter Medicine*Woman
- Start date
Alan A Keeling
Registered Member
He was calling to Elijah, no doubt in my mind at all, as the One who will 'restore all things' (Matt 17:11).
Was Matthew there ?
Alan A Keeling
Registered Member
Well, it's generally assumed he was one of the 12 Apostles, so he could have witnessed Jesus' cries.
Many have tried to figure it out, and I've given this a lot of thought over the years.
Elijah is the Man...
I believe the apostles, with the exception of Peter, fled.
Alan A Keeling
Registered Member
Yes of course, you're right, but the apostles got together again immediately after the resurrection, and presumably Jesus' words on the cross were a hot topic of discussion among them from the start.
So they were basing their testimony on reported speech as opposed to first-hand testimony ?
Alan A Keeling
Registered Member
Yes...but both Peter and Mary would have heard the words spoken and could confirm each other's testimony. Peter didn't write a gospel himself but is considered a major source for the synoptics.
I agree but hearsay written long after the event doesn't impress, knowing how things become distorted with the telling. I think we can only treat what Matthew says as hearsay and, therefore , open to doubt.
Alan A Keeling
Registered Member
As is true of all ancient historical documents, I think. But my instinct tells me it's true in this case, because of the confusion that surrounded it.
I think we shall have to agree to differ. I find it odd, however, that you find confusion in some sense conducive to truth. I'm sure you'll agree that instinct is no basis for belief.
Alan A Keeling
Registered Member
No, I disagree. God cannot be found through logic...you are then left with instinct and intuition, imo.
Wht do you think God is beyond reason/logic ?
OMG..........
The last words from Jesus , were a quote from psalm 22:
in hebrew : " eli, eli , lama azaftani "
or in aramaic (which was the main language in Palestine in first century AD):
" eloi, eloi , metoel mah sabachthani "
The bible simply got it mixed up ...............
Psalm 22 starts with an exclamation of despair but ends with the trust in god .......
Jesus was simply quoting psalm 22 to comfort himself .............
Dear Dr Mabuse ,
Thank you for quoting my post , but I do disagree ..........NO prophecy of any crucifiction ....
http://www.messiahtruth.com/psa22.html
As you can see the KJV is (as usual) full of translation errors - though sometimes, I think some of the translation errors are intentionally.....
Please notice the discussion about psalm 22:17[16] ........
Medicine Woman, you are 100% WRONG! It appears that you have never been right, about anyone or anything. The hot air you have been preaching was intended only as inflammation, not information.
"Father, why have you forsaken me?" means JUST THAT! For Jesus to complete His work of redemption, He had to be as forsaken as any other completely lost sinner, and face the same torment that Judas or Hitler would face. The answer is simple:
"It is to complete your destiny, Son."
Jesus then descended to hell (Helios, the sun) the "lake of fire that never goes out." Those disobedient misrepresenters of God who suffered there rightly were not out of chances, after all! Jesus died for them, as much as for Medicine Woman as for you and me.
The thing is, the amnesty program called life is to test us, to see if we would rebel from God, as we did before we came here to this earth. We all followed bad advice, and those among us determined worthy to get a second chance come to life (on this and an infinity more planets) to see how much nastier things can be if we listen to bad counsel, and how great life can be if we listen to God -- in that still small voice that we call a conscience.
"Father, why have you forsaken me?" means JUST THAT! For Jesus to complete His work of redemption, He had to be as forsaken as any other completely lost sinner, and face the same torment that Judas or Hitler would face. The answer is simple:
"It is to complete your destiny, Son."
Jesus then descended to hell (Helios, the sun) the "lake of fire that never goes out." Those disobedient misrepresenters of God who suffered there rightly were not out of chances, after all! Jesus died for them, as much as for Medicine Woman as for you and me.
The thing is, the amnesty program called life is to test us, to see if we would rebel from God, as we did before we came here to this earth. We all followed bad advice, and those among us determined worthy to get a second chance come to life (on this and an infinity more planets) to see how much nastier things can be if we listen to bad counsel, and how great life can be if we listen to God -- in that still small voice that we call a conscience.
Hearsay? "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness . . .." 1 Tim. 2:2.
The Four Evangelists of the Gospels had full divine inspiration to jog their memories about all that took place. Much has been lost over the last two millennia, but the record is clear enough.
Debate small points of doctrine all you want, but __PREACHING DELETED by mod__
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Jesus on the cross
First, don't believe everything you read, even in the Bible. Much easier to believe is Gary Renard's The Disappearance of the Universe, which offers an alternative cosmology (we call it the "Cause-mology") in line with A Course in Miracles.
Incredibly, all of the "new" sciences--quantum physics, chaos theory, cybernetics, etc--easily fit into this paradigm. And you can read all about it starting now on my new web site, quintessentialqueries.com and accompanying blog, Promising Perspectives. (Excuse me if this is too much of a shameless self-promotion. I was advised, as an author and publisher, to join forums...but I'm not clear what else I'm supposed to say!)
As to Jesus being in pain--no way! "Anyone who understands the Truth of these sayings will not taste death," he says, I think in the Gospel of Thomas. Identification with the body is an illusion--there is really no body, hence no pain. Then why does it seem otherwise? All based on an Illusion (Heisenberg demonstrated this 90 years ago and we're still in denial! maybe the earth is really flat, too!) devised as a means of escaping the Primal Guilt of the Original Separation of Ego from God/Source. Every moment of choice is a holographic opportunity to reverse that choice for Separation.
This is not merely theoretical, but overwhelmingly practical. I just did a deep Primal Forgiveness healing ("primal" as in Arthur Janov's work) the other day and pulled the rug out from under my substance addictions, fear of poverty ("ahhhhh! I'm going to disappear if I don't get more $$!"), certain emotional dependencies, and major muscle spasm that went from neck to ankle...all in just a few minutes.
Jesus was the first individual (on this planet?) to thoroughly pierce the Illusion and hold the door open for the rest of us to follow to the eventual Atonement. I think the sciences in general and Biblical archaeology in particular will soon be showing us the facts of the matter, so that we can concentrate in confidence on doing our spiritual inner work.
First, don't believe everything you read, even in the Bible. Much easier to believe is Gary Renard's The Disappearance of the Universe, which offers an alternative cosmology (we call it the "Cause-mology") in line with A Course in Miracles.
Incredibly, all of the "new" sciences--quantum physics, chaos theory, cybernetics, etc--easily fit into this paradigm. And you can read all about it starting now on my new web site, quintessentialqueries.com and accompanying blog, Promising Perspectives. (Excuse me if this is too much of a shameless self-promotion. I was advised, as an author and publisher, to join forums...but I'm not clear what else I'm supposed to say!)
As to Jesus being in pain--no way! "Anyone who understands the Truth of these sayings will not taste death," he says, I think in the Gospel of Thomas. Identification with the body is an illusion--there is really no body, hence no pain. Then why does it seem otherwise? All based on an Illusion (Heisenberg demonstrated this 90 years ago and we're still in denial! maybe the earth is really flat, too!) devised as a means of escaping the Primal Guilt of the Original Separation of Ego from God/Source. Every moment of choice is a holographic opportunity to reverse that choice for Separation.
This is not merely theoretical, but overwhelmingly practical. I just did a deep Primal Forgiveness healing ("primal" as in Arthur Janov's work) the other day and pulled the rug out from under my substance addictions, fear of poverty ("ahhhhh! I'm going to disappear if I don't get more $$!"), certain emotional dependencies, and major muscle spasm that went from neck to ankle...all in just a few minutes.
Jesus was the first individual (on this planet?) to thoroughly pierce the Illusion and hold the door open for the rest of us to follow to the eventual Atonement. I think the sciences in general and Biblical archaeology in particular will soon be showing us the facts of the matter, so that we can concentrate in confidence on doing our spiritual inner work.
*************
M*W: Hmmm... truth is surrounded by confusion... hmmm?
This was recently a discussion at my church.
Back in Jesus' day, there were not many written things, if any. Instead, teachings like that of the bible were done vocally. The Psalms were frequently sung. In order to determine what Psalm to sing, the first lines were said. Basically, The opening words were the name of the song. These are the opening words to Psalm 22. By saying those words, it would have instantly brought to mind that Psalm to any Jewish person in attendance. Read the Psalm, and tell me how you would feel if the man you were watching die shouted those words and brought that to mind? It would have quite an impact I would think.
Another interpetation is that God cannot look upon sin. when Jesus was dying he took all the sin of the world into himself, and God had to turn away, thus for the first time ever, Jesus was without God.
Back in Jesus' day, there were not many written things, if any. Instead, teachings like that of the bible were done vocally. The Psalms were frequently sung. In order to determine what Psalm to sing, the first lines were said. Basically, The opening words were the name of the song. These are the opening words to Psalm 22. By saying those words, it would have instantly brought to mind that Psalm to any Jewish person in attendance. Read the Psalm, and tell me how you would feel if the man you were watching die shouted those words and brought that to mind? It would have quite an impact I would think.
Another interpetation is that God cannot look upon sin. when Jesus was dying he took all the sin of the world into himself, and God had to turn away, thus for the first time ever, Jesus was without God.
Well, lets be clear that all that is recorded that Jesus said was not written about until 30-40 or 100s of years after it happened and so is subject to many alterations, edits and subjective interpretation.
Its the spirit he left behind and the lessons of profound love that I feel are more important that trying to exactly interpret the inexact translations and interpretations that the Bible recorded.
Also to note, the "Bible " was created, controlled and copied within the realms of the vatican for 100+ years . If you look at this link showing , through Biblical prophecy that the Pope/Vatican is the antichrist, then you really must wonder what is not in the Bible that Jesus also taught.
Here is a site that explains more.. www( dot) remnantofgod (dot) com... I have no affilation with that site ..I just post it so people can see how 666 and the Pope are associated and very powerfully and incontrovertibly so.
Its the spirit he left behind and the lessons of profound love that I feel are more important that trying to exactly interpret the inexact translations and interpretations that the Bible recorded.
Also to note, the "Bible " was created, controlled and copied within the realms of the vatican for 100+ years . If you look at this link showing , through Biblical prophecy that the Pope/Vatican is the antichrist, then you really must wonder what is not in the Bible that Jesus also taught.
Here is a site that explains more.. www( dot) remnantofgod (dot) com... I have no affilation with that site ..I just post it so people can see how 666 and the Pope are associated and very powerfully and incontrovertibly so.