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M*W: My point exactly.
Who was Jesus talking to when he said...
- Thread starter Medicine*Woman
- Start date
M*W: My point exactly.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
Elias is not the romanization of Greek helios. It is the romanization of Hebrew Eliyah, which is also romanized as Elijah, with J as the semivowel Y, not the modern English J phoneme. Latin had the H sound, although it has disappeared in all the Romance languages. (The Romanian letter H is pronounced KH.) So the Romans would have had no reason to remove the H from the beginning of a Greek or Hebrew word. Jesus spoke Aramaic, which has the phoneme H, and since he was a rabbi he was surely reasonably fluent in Hebrew, which also has the H. So he would have no reason to remove the H from a Greek word either, like a Cockney.
In the heavily annotated Jewish edition of the Old Testament, which I recently had an opportunity to review during a bar mitzvah, the word elohim, which literally means "gods" in pre-Judaic Hebrew, the plural of eloh, which is cognate with Arabic allah, is explained as meaning "spirits." It always takes a verb in the singular conjugation (which of course is lost in English translation) and therefore is analyzed to mean God speaking of himself as a collection of spirits.
It's generally acknowledged that the Gospels were written in the first century CE, which means they were recorded by (alleged) eyewitnesses, or at the very least by people who had (allegedly) interviewed the (alleged) eyewitnesses.
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M*W: Because I feel some kind of affinity toward you, maybe it's because your username is BlueRidge, I will try to honestly answer your questions, but I feel I have already explained my lifelong religous experiences to you.
My hard shell Baptist grandmother from East Tennessee taught me to pray. Everynight we prayed the Lord's Prayer and the 23-rd Psalm together.
Moving on... The RCC is explicit in its teaching of Jesus's crucifixion, his death and resurrection. and consequently, the be all-end all of salvation. I have no quarrels with the RCC in their undying effort in perpetuating the myth. That's what they do, and they do it well. Even though I'm an atheist, please be clear when I say that the RCC was thorough and enduring in their steadfast approach to providing a solid christian eduction, I am not trying to imply that I have any sorrow or guilt for the RCC. That's what they do. (Please don't bring up the problem of the catholic pedophiles right now. I know what they've done, but right now, we're talking about who teaches the the true gospel of Jesus.).
Now, my point was about my experience in Sunday School: I was just a child. I hadn't even reached the "age of reason." I felt no guilt, and still feel no guilt, about what I said as a child. I was innocent. That happened when I was very young, when I believed in Jesus, and what my beloved grandmother, and the Baptist church, told me what to believe. I just couldn't see how Jesus would let that happen to me!
I found true christainity as an adult. I was never much of a sinner, but I will concede to comitting the reasonable and customary sins of a basically decent young mother of that day.
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M*W: You made me laugh! I've never quite heard it put that way! But, I have to say you're right. I was just pissing in the wind, wasn't I? In a nutshell, all religious belief is just pissing in the wind!!!
Been there, done that, read the scriptures. Studied the scriptures. Believed in the scriptures. Argued the scriptures. Scorched the earth with the scriptures. Got caught up in the circular saw of irrational belief.
I had to delete most of your post, because it was preaching. That's something that's not allowed on this forum. If you want to preach, you need to go to a christian forum and preach til your guts fall out.
Sorry, I don't believe a word of the scriptures. I have studied them in depth. They were written as drama, poetry, comedy and tragedy, but not truth. You can cherry pick some events in history there were written about in the bible, but that doesn't make the bible true. The gospels were written after the alleged time of Jesus by people (yeah, right) who never knew Jesus if he had existed. Everything written in the OT and NT is a myth. Read my tagline: "Jesus: Mythstory---Not History!"
When I said "god let go of me...," I meant that there was no god out there to hold onto me. Like you said, I was just "pissing in the wind" believing there was a god.
If a god existed, she would have smote that fucking Baptist Sunday School teacher down! Well, I'm sure that old wicked witch is dead by now. I'm just hiding and watching the rest of christianity go down. Catch your local news... The RCC is headed fast in that direction.
Thank you, but no, I will remain an atheist. Christianity needed me more than I needed it. Christianity lost one of it's true crusaders when it lost me. Now my crusade is to destroy christianity. When that is done, my goal is to destroy all religion to prove to there is no god.
M*W..
sorry to hear about your personal experiances..i suppose it wouldn't help to say that it seems to me your faith was in the men who was preaching to you..that is why i have an attitude towards the 'do as your told' christianity..
it sounds like god is still in your life whether you want to acknowledge him or not..
i also have an attitude toward the RCC..99% of exchristians were RCC..they must be doing something wrong..personally i think god hates organized religion, they have done far too much harm to god..look at your story..
you don't have to be a part of a church to be a believer..(personally i think it helps..specially if it is the right church..) but church is not for everyone and not just any church will do you right..
sorry to hear about your personal experiances..i suppose it wouldn't help to say that it seems to me your faith was in the men who was preaching to you..that is why i have an attitude towards the 'do as your told' christianity..
it sounds like god is still in your life whether you want to acknowledge him or not..
i also have an attitude toward the RCC..99% of exchristians were RCC..they must be doing something wrong..personally i think god hates organized religion, they have done far too much harm to god..look at your story..
you don't have to be a part of a church to be a believer..(personally i think it helps..specially if it is the right church..) but church is not for everyone and not just any church will do you right..
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M*W: Thanks for your reponse. No, I really believed there was a god! It wasn't the "men" who preached to me. I didn't really need any man to come between me and the god I believed in. That was then. This is now. There are no men who come between me and my god (me). I despise all of christianity, everything it stands for, and consequently, the people who are deluded enough to believe in that crap. I try to separate myself from despising the human being who has been misled by the lies of christianity. Sometimes that is hard to do. People who have been innoculated with the vius of rabid religion make themselves want to believe in it. And then they have their unholy babble that confirms their delusional beliefs!
No more religion for me. It ain't got me, babe.
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Steven Genieus
Registered Member
jesus is going against the bible by worshiping an idol.
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
How will destroying religion prove that there is no god?
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M*W: Well, Fraggle, that is my hope.
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M*W: The bible wasn't around when Jesus (cough) was, so assuming he existed, how did he go against some books that hadn't been written yet. I don't want to hear, "well, that's Jesus for ya" bullshit.
This is what is produced when you cross theology with pseudoscience...
...in any case, that there are correlations between different religions doesn't mean that either is false so why would christianity be false just because it can be correlated to sun-worshipping/early astrology?
Fraggle Rocker
Staff member
I understand that. I just don't follow your logic. Stamping out belief in an assertion does not make the assertion false, any more than indoctrinating billions of people to believe it makes it true.
Isn't it the Torah, the Old Testament, that tells us:
- Yahweh is the only god,
- All other gods are false, and
- We must not worship the false gods?
You seem really bitter about this Sunday school incident. I'm sure the old bat got what was coming to her. It's odd to me, if you don't mind me saying. I've had hundreds of moments like that incident in your life. It only made me a stronger believer, and I have no bitterness about any of it. As soon as I let go, it all changed for me. I only wish I knew what it was that you sought from the beginning that went unanswered, that led you to feel the way you do. Seems like a waste to me. So many promises of of a good life, if you just... I just sit and wonder, what switch got thrown, by what instance in life?
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M*W: Thanks for your response, BlueRidge, but I've had many moments in my life that could have made me a bitter person. That was just one of them. I'm sure the old bat got what she deserved. Interestingly, she couldn't have children of her own, and I remember as a child, she and her husband struggled to adopt a child, which never came to pass. Good thing for some unsuspecting orphan!
That Sunday School incident and losing my religion made me a stronger person. Christianity, to me, seems like such a waste. BlueRidge, I've had a good life. I've had a lot of happiness in my life along with all the struggles. I'm a tough old bird. I've survived a plane crash, a car crash, an extremely difficult childbirth, a brutal and abusive husband who turned out to be gay in the end. I put myself through college and raised my kids alone. Even at that time, I still believed. Now, I look back, and for what? Where was god when I needed him? I can tell you right now, no god ever stepped foot through my door!
The fact that I quit believing in a god had nothing to do with the struggles in my life. I faced those struggles all by myself. I overcame them all by myself. I looked forward to the future all by myself. My life has not been based on the bitterness of one little incident when I was a child. If that had been the case, I wouldn't have accomplished the things I did. I've been luckier than eveyone I know. I don't even like to be around other people's bitterness. They pray to their gods, but if you take a look at their lives, they sure don't live like godly people. I'm talking about christians here. I've been surrounded all my life by christians, including my immediate family, who waste their time trying to save my sole. They sure as hell ain't gonna save my soul! It wasn't lost in the first place.
I won't ever be denying atheism. To embrace atheism means that all the crap that has held you down all your life is suddenly off your shoulders. Your guilt subsides and your fear flies away the day your christianity dies.
I have made it a point on this forum to remain as neutral as possible when it comes to lauding the advantages of atheism. My goal, rather, has been to present the evils of christianity than to promote atheism. I want readers to make their own decisions, but I think it is now time to present how, through understanding atheism, the truth about christianity and all the other man-made religions will be exposed. I want readers to understand how and why I escaped the vise grip of christianity. Why I became anti-theist, and why atheism cracks the nutshell of religion.
It seems that the strongest christians are the ones who turn to atheism. Many of them have told their stories right here on this forum. I'm sure there are some christians that read Sciforums who turn to atheism or who at least are heading in that direction. SouthStar and jayleew, just to name two of them. They amaze me. They, too, broke through christianity's vise grip. The other christians on this forum aren't as lucky--Adstar and Lori7 to name two. Christianity really has its teeth deep into them. But they refuse to acknowledge their pain. I've been there. I've done that. I was saved from this false ideology.
Medicine*Woman says, "Believing in delusions makes one delusional."
haereticum135
Registered Member
What? Jesus was a Heretic?! But he's my favorite fictional character! Talk about a plot twist!
yeah..im not on that list..
btw..i also give christians their fair share of lip..i do believe in god but i do not believe it in the way they teach it..(some of it..but not much)
a person shouldn't have to jump through hoops to believe..if jesus died for our sins and god has forgiven us, why can't christians treat others the same way? aren't we supposed to be like christ? did he ever make ppl feel guilty for being themselves? did he ever put anyone down? i think not..
I feel for you. I've been through the ringer, and really shouldn't be alive at all. But I don't feel it's any reason to denounce God. He never once promised a perfect life. He forewarned us the world could be a big giant crap sandwich, and we'd often have to accept it. That life would have seasons of receiving and seasons of losing. Our lives and their purpose, in it's rather short time(vs eternity), was to make a decision about accepting a completely free gift. When Jesus sought disciples he told them up front. This is hard work, you're gonna be stoned, beaten, jailed, persecuted, scorned, hated etc.. this ain't no place for a wuss.
When you say "the strongest christians are the ones who turn to atheism". And likewise some of the most outspoken and publicly recognized atheist are now Christians and or preachers.
You can tell me God isn't real, because you didn't get what you want. Based on what expectations? God uses patience we can't comprehend. All he asked was that you do the same, even if it meant waiting 30 years or more.
As far belief. I'd like to see all the books written by the Pharisees or Pontius Pilate himself, that ever disputed or disproved a single act of Christ. They don't exist. The only question was the authority of Christ. Christianity swept through Europe for a reason. It isn't everyday someone walks by in front of thousands and brings the dead back to life. And not one single book of the times, to this day, ever disputes it.
I could go on forever, but it sounds to me like you didn't get what you want so God doesn't exist and religion has to be destroyed. Pretty selfish.
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M*W: I don't understand why you "feel" for me. I've had a great life. I've been very successful. I have a family that loves me and each other. My children and grandchildren are all successful. I enjoy each day of my life. I don't understand why you pity me. Thanks, but no thanks. I had to work hard for what I got out of life, but that's something I'm proud of. Not many women have seen what I've seen and done what I've done. In fact, not many men could hold a candle to my life. Life can be joyful and fruitful without a god.
However, the myth of Jesus is misunderstood by many christians. There are so many discrepancies in the gospels. No one who is written about in the gospels (disciples) ever knew Jesus. In fact, if you study Paul, you would know that the Epistles were written before the gospels were. I've been to the actual site and touched it and believed in it where Peter and Paul met their deaths (Rome). Now I look back and realize the real meanings of Paul's "beheading" and "Peter's crucifixion upside down." There is also symbolism of "stoning," "Peter, the Rock," and "upon this rock I will build my church." I don't want to get into astro-theology with you now, because you are at a stage where you refuse to understand the symbolism of the new testament. You believe in the literal interpretation, because that is what was taught to you. The NT has many symbolic meanings and metaphors that have nothing to do with superhuman beings, a dying demigod savior, nor anything to do with a man allegedly named Jesus. When I went to all these religious sites, I was a believer. Now I look back and realize I was delusional like all the other believers.
That aside... my eternity is what I have lived. When it's over, it's over. No regrets.
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M*W: I frequent bookstores a lot, and I read a lot about religion, especially christianity. I want to know everything about the doctrine that held my mind hostage... the prison that made me afraid to escape, even though it said many times, "There's the door, don't let it deprive you of salvation." I stayed, because I was afraid to leave and have to bear eternal damnation.
Back to your point about "some of the most outspoken and publicly recognized atheists are now christians and or preachers." I've seen only one book about this, but I can't remember his name. He was an atheist, and then he went back to christianity. As I recall, he was a christian to begin with, tried to make a living as an atheist, but found out that preaching christianity was more financially beneficial. That's really not impressive, because that tells me he never escaped the mind control of christianity. There are other authors who were or still are christian that I read like Dominic Crossan, Thomas Merton, Karen Armstrong, to name a few. There is no point in reading christian fiction (like the one author you mentioned). I'd like to see a bibliography of these atheist-turned-christian authors. I'll check them out. Reading what they write isn't a sin for me, like it was to read anything other than christian material when I was a christian! Mind control. Simple, basic, hypnotic, addictive, possessive, mind control.
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M*W: What in the world makes you think I didn't get what I wanted? I got everything I wanted, and nothing was the result of any god! I was so patient when I believed in god. I never asked for anything, except when one of my children were sick, or when I was far away from my family in the military putting shredded bodies back together. I prayed to god then.
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M*W: You're right about the Pharisees and Pontius Pilate not writing any books. They haven't been found anywhere. The Romans kept impeccable records of their crucifixions. Nowhere in those records is Pontius Pilate or Jesus mentioned. By going on "the authority of Christ," that's make believe! If Jesus didn't exist, there was no savior, and no salvation. There as no "authority of Christ." That's where the mind control comes in! I don't know where you're getting the idea that "not one single book of the times, to this day, ever disputes it." Show me that book! I've read lots of books, and I look for antique books which are undoubtedly more truthful that today's pulp fiction. People write books today to make money. The ancients who wrote books were closer to the truth. However, that's NOT to say that everything the ancient scribes wrote was the truth. The Book of Job, for instance, was a play, a tragedy. It's the oldest book of the bible. It is strictly a book of literature, not truth, myth. It was written to entertain people as were other books of the bible.
In first century Rome, there was a trend to write about dying demigod saviors. There were at least 16 of these gods who were born of virgins in mangers and caves, who worked miracles, who promised salvation, who died and were resurrected, who ascended into heaven, blah blah blah. Jesus wasn't the only savior of myth. He had a lot of competition in those days. So just because the Romans were really into this dying demigod savior myth. That doesn't make it true.
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M*W: You don't know me, yet you're judging me. Typical christian hypocrite. I have never, in the short time you've been here, tried to convince you to be an atheist. That is not something that atheists do. We already know that embracing atheism is a personal journey, and it takes years, sometimes a lifetime, because people are just too afraid to let go of their religious indoctrination. If you're happy with your religious brainwashing, far be it from me to try to stop you. Be happy. Believe in what you want to believe. You're no worse for the wear. What's it gonna hurt to believe that Jesus saves? You're gonna live your life believing in something that gives you the hope that there is an afterlife.
The human animal has needed that hope for some 50,000 years, when the first Neanderthal acquired the intelligence to comprehend the death of one of his tribemates. He was the first to bury their bodies instead of leaving their carcasses on the savanna to be eaten by wild animals. Humans are no different today, except more are coming to realize the myth of it all, and accepting the truth that there is no god other than the one man has created. If this is the belief you hold onto, then it is apparently something you need to believe... just like the Neanderthal first needed to believe. But, just because you believe it, that doesn't make it real, and it doesn't make it true.
This also tells me that you blindly believe in something you have not researched , other than what your parents, the bible, and your church have told you. You have not read nor studied, questioned nor confirmed independent sources, nor sought dialog with others who have been there and done what you're afraid to do, simply because you need that security blanket of salvation that really isn't there. Like the Emperor's new clothes. You don't know the difference between myth and reality, and it's nobody's fault but your own.
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You're absolutely correct. I would not want somebody like you teaching me about Christianity.
As it stands, you can't backpedal out of your previous statements. Your life sucked to one degree or another. So God doesn't exist, and all religion has to be destroyed. It couldn't possibly be a benefit to anyone, because you say so.
Here's a little starting point for your rather one sided view, or ignorance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_former_atheists_and_agnostics
My all time favorite is this guy.
Anthony Flew
http://www.existence-of-god.com/flew-abandons-atheism.html
George Muller, is either the luckiest man ever born, or he learned exactly how to pray. Rare find in the modern age.
I had skewed views for 4 decades, I admit it. The pastor of my church is the first human ever to illustrate every critical mistake made in Christianity. Sadly he doesn't have your education in this, he only has masters degrees, doctorates, seminary, and 40 years of service under his belt. Boy I regret finding that guy. Very unfortunately for me, I have little if anything to worry about anymore. Stupidest thing really. I just pray and ask. I get. Sad sad life indeed. It's misery, I'll tell ya. I never learned a darn thing about how to live and conduct my life for success. Stupid religion. I have no idea why all those inmates turn it over to God when they could grasp atheism! Of course!! I never thought of it until today. The bum in street can go to the atheist church that doesn't exist and get the free atheist food that doesn't exist and wear the free atheist clothes that weren't donated! Man, what a revelation!! I've got to donate heavily to all the selfless artiest missionary's that don't go overseas and help no one. Such warm and inviting people. How have I missed this all these years????? I've got to tell my church to stop giving all that money to the poor! We'll just keep it for ourselves! No more collections, and no more transparency of the books either. Damn religion. Does nothing for no one. Horrible. Stupid faith based charity, handling 80% of the worlds humanitarian problems while their atheist governement stands by idol, doing nothing. All those stupid poor people. Lets kill them off and keep these assets for ourselves.
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M*W: It's a well-known fact that atheists research more and are, therefore, more knowledgeable about christianity than christians. Yet, we do not force ourselves on you, and we do not infiltrate your churches to teach you unsuspecting fools about the evils of your religion. We do, however, join atheistic organizations and Internet science fora to express ourselves to a more educated and like-minded group of individuals.
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M*W: "The degree to which one's life sucks is directly related to number of blow jobs one gets." ~ Medicine*Woman
(That's another subject, dear, but since you mentioned it, I couldn't help but include that in this post).
Everyone's life sucks occasionally. That's just life. That's bound to happen. Those are the odds. No god had anything to do with it. Karl Marx said: "Religion is the opiate of the masses." I wonder what he meant?
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M*W: I checked out this site, and the first thing I saw at the heading was: "Not to be confused with List of atheists."
There seems to be many people in your "list" who were agnostic-to-religious, feminist-to-religious, socialist-to-religious, Communist-to-religious, Jewish atheist-to-christian, etc., but those folks were not necessarily converting to christianity per se. And, feminism, my dear friend, just so you'll know before a woman slaps you in the face, is not a religion, it's a philosophy. So, all those people on your list don't count. There are others on your list who were socialist-to-religious, and non-christian-to-religious. My personal favorites were bisexual-to-religious and atheist-to mystic! When I read that one, I spewed hot coffee all over my computer screen.
Further, you did not clearly establish those who were atheist-to-religious. (I counted, and out of your list of 50 converts-to-religion, there were only 11 who were atheist-to-religious). Also, I might want to point out that catholic-to-religious doesn't count. The group of atheists-to-no specific religion was 11 out of 51 (22%) of the list. But let's here it for all those guys down at the Knights of Columbus Hall who came in at 17 out of 51 (33%) of anything-to-catholic! But who's counting, while 18 out of 51 (35%) didn't claim religion or christianity either one. My favorite out of this group was agnostic Jewish/Marxist-to-religious mystic.
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M*W: I have seen his book on the bookshelf at Barnes&Noble. So, there is one book in publication, as I stated previously, that claims an atheist-to-christian journey. Yet, Anthony Flew himself, claims to be a philosopher-turned-deist (ala Jefferson deism). Well-known for saying, ""You cannot ... transmute some incoherent mixture of words into sense merely by introducing the three-letter word "God" to be its grammatical subject."
-- Anthony Flew
Born in 1923, and let's face it, getting to be a little long in the tooth, Flew starts to embrace deism in 2004. I wonder why? Does he want to be better "safe than sorry about heaven or hell?"
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M*W: That's like the fox teaching the hens how to lay eggs. That's like Noah claiming the Nobel Prize on the history of flooding. That's like Boy Scout leaders coming out of the closet. That's like pedophile priests chaperoning the boys choir retreat. Your preacher may have years of seminary and christian education under his belt and he's preaching that "christian" education every sunday!
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M*W: Like I said, if it makes you happy, do it. No one can take away your religion but you.
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M*W: When an inmate walks into prison, he is issued a jump suit, in Texas that would be white. He is given a number, a haircut, a shower, a medical exam and a jail cell. Then he's handed a bible. He may read that bible, he may be allowed to attend christian bible study. I've heard that some inmates even take a correspondence course on christianity, and if they pass, that looks good to their parole board. What else is this inmate going to do while he's incarcerated? But, I tell you what, the minute that door opens and that inmate walks out, there is a garbage can by the door, and it's filled with bibles. There is only one thing on the minds of those inmates, and that's "getting out" not how they can "get in" to heaven!
Studies have been done on this. Just about everybody in prison claims to be a christian, and not to many claim to be atheists. Hmmmm? I wonder why?
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081118202520AAIxuK1
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M*W: My adivce to you is to get out of the house more. You have a bleak impression of what is really going on in the world. Maybe that's all you've been taught. I'm an atheist, and I actually donate to a local christian ministry. It doesn't bother me what they do with my donations. I'm a humanist. I care about my human family. Let's not forget about all the free medical care I provide. And I could tell you stories that would make you shiver about the things I've seen. So don't tell me for one minute that atheists don't contribute to society. This one does.
What do you think your pastor would say if he knew you were on a non-christian scientific forum talkng to atheists, feminists, mystics, bisexuals, agnostic Jewish Marxists, and god-forbid those evil catholics?
Religions are systems telling any unregenerate sinner what to do in order to pay for his own sins and earn Heaven. Salvation is what God GIVES any unregenerate sinner so he can be regenerated without him deserving Heaven or earning it.