Who said these words?

[jcarl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who said these words?

Originally posted by Flores
I meant, their answers so far are unreasonable and unacceptable. I hope they improve, but no promises.

Ok

Let me tell you where you are dead wrong. When you have an assignment, you could do one of two things:

1- study your ass off and trust in god, even if you think that you'll fail. Do christians trust in god?

-This is comparable to good works equaling salvation. Thing is, if I didn't pay attention in class, I can stare at whatever notes I have and they won't make jack for sense. Similarly, I can work my tail off to balance off the bad stuff with good stuff, but that still doesn't make me worthy of being in the presence of Go, which is what salvation is.

-This is where Christians put their trust in God. We realize that we cannot make ourselves worthy to get to God. So we put our trust in that God, through Christ, leans down to us and gives us mercy and grace.

2- Don't trust in god and assume that he'll fail you if you didn't achieve some unachievable thing and go behind god's back and open his lockers and steal the answer sheet.

Christians who made up the Christ savior analogy don't trust in god...They don't. They wish to control god and predict what god will do in advance. They're denying god from showing them mercy and justice.....

And we do this how?

Made up bull shit.

Have you run out of arguments that you have to resort to name-calling.

Jesus is below god, I wish he can tell you that himself...

Check out John 8:58. Jesus said a little something different.

the first commandment as told by Jesus speaks of loving the one god, with all thy heart and powers....the first commandment didn't mention three...Only later did the bible experts decide to make three gods to reconcile translation errors and contradictions in the text.

God is three persons in one essence. There are three aspects of God, but they all exist within one God.

Why would a father sentence a child to torture and death at the hands of those that mocked and scorned him???

A)John 3:16. He loved us enough so that he would give us his son as a replacement.

B)"Greater love has no man than this that he lay down his life for his friends"-John 15:13. This passage really doesn't do Jesus justice. He didn't just die for his friends and those who would believe in him.(although only they will accept it) He died for all people even those who hate him, even for those who deny that he even existed. His blood covered every atheist and agnostic. Everyone. No exceptions.

Why would an all powerfull god do such a nonesense thing. Here's god's tendency throughout the bible and Quran.

God forgave adam and gave him a way of life on earth despite of his sin.

God saved Noah from those that opressed him and didn't believe in him.

God saved Abraham from the opressors that threw him in a fire, yet the fire was commanded to cool.

God saved Jonah from the stomach of the whale.

God saved David from Goliath.

Ok

And many many more...God saved every single one of his prophets.

Umm...not quite. Hebrews 11:11:35-37 and Fox's Book of Martyrs paint a different picture. Stephen was stoned; Isaiah was sawed enough; John the Baptist was decapitated; all of the Disciples(except for John, who was boiled in oil, yet survived) were killed in various ways.

Why would that same god act in such an obtuse way and let a bunch of morons kill his sent prophet.

Because he was more than a prophet. Check out John 3:16.

And not just that, you say that god would let his prophet get killed by worthless people without any worthy wittnesses????? It's not god that killed Jesus, assuming Jesus died on the cross, it's the filthy angry romans and jews who were threatened by Jesus, just like every other people were threatened by their prophet. If people appreciated Jesus and believed in him as a prophet, he wouldn't have been sentenced to die public execution style.

He was killed because he was a threat to the Jewish leaders. Why? Because he claimed to be the Son of God/ equal to God.

 

[Flores]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who said these words?

Originally posted by jcarl
-This is comparable to good works equaling salvation. Thing is, if I didn't pay attention in class, I can stare at whatever notes I have and they won't make jack for sense. Similarly, I can work my tail off to balance off the bad stuff with good stuff, but that still doesn't make me worthy of being in the presence of Go, which is what salvation is.

If you can stare at yourself for long enough and still have no sense to understand yourself then you're not worthy of being born a human. Perhaps a lower form of life is more suited for you.
If you think that is about balancing good and bad in a scale of YOUR design, then you're deluded and over simplistic...Again not worthy of being born a human.

Originally posted by jcarl
-This is where Christians put their trust in God. We realize that we cannot make ourselves worthy to get to God. So we put our trust in that God, through Christ, leans down to us and gives us mercy and grace.

No, Christians don't trust in god. If you really trusted in god, you would trust that god will judge you fairly, not based on your manmade fantacy rules made of scales. If you really trust in god, you would have made your case and rested your case with god, not with some sacrificial lamb that is supposed to guarantee you salvation...You don't trust in god...You don't even know the meaning of the word trust.

Originally posted by jcarl
Check out John 8:58. Jesus said a little something different.

Are you sure a little or a lot...Come on make your mind...You must have been there to know for sure....Sadly, I have to rely on the honesty and language skills of the king James staff, the reporters, and all those mediators that claim that Jesus indeed said those things. Are you sure that the helper of King James that wrote the bible have achieved his purpose and is going to heaven. Sorry, but I don't feel like going to hell for a simple error of following idiots, If I'll go to hell, I'll go for a real reason, I'll earn my own way to hell, I'll earn every toture. I don't feel like being cheated to hell....Shit, if I'm going to hell, I must make sure I'm going first class to the bottom of the pit next to those that wrote the corrupted bible. Now you go ahead and fall flat on your face at the top of hell and blame us in the bottom or some poorly translated and compiled bible for it.

Originally posted by jcarl
God is three persons in one essence. There are three aspects of God, but they all exist within one God.

Keep telling that to yourself, does it get more convincing everytime you say it.

 

[jcarl]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who said these words?

Originally posted by Flores
If you can stare at yourself for long enough and still have no sense to understand yourself then you're not worthy of being born a human. Perhaps a lower form of life is more suited for you.
If you think that is about balancing good and bad in a scale of YOUR design, then you're deluded and over simplistic...Again not worthy of being born a human.

Umm....what does this have to do with what I wrote?

No, Christians don't trust in god. If you really trusted in god, you would trust that god will judge you fairly,

If we were all judged farily, then we'd all be in Hell b/c we all fall short of the glory of God. This is where a bridge must be built to get across the gap between God and man. This gap can only be crossed by God. The bridge is Christ; there is no other way to get to God.

not based on your manmade fantacy rules made of scales. If you really trust in god, you would have made your case and rested your case with god, not with some sacrificial lamb that is supposed to guarantee you salvation...You don't trust in god...You don't even know the meaning of the word trust.

The human race has no case. It cannot give enough evidence in its favor to earn the salvation. God cannot be in the presence of sin/sinners. For salvation to actually exist, something must create a bridge. Man can't do it. That leaves it up to God to do it. Now if Jesus were just a prophet, then he would be in the "Man" category and couldn't make the bridge. But if Jesus is God, then he can become the bridge by sacrificing himself by becoming our sin bearer(2 Pet. 2:24). This is the only way salvation can take place. Where do you say I am going wrong?

Are you sure a little or a lot...Come on make your mind...You must have been there to know for sure

Then you must have been there to know for sure that Jesus didn't say that.

....Sadly, I have to rely on the honesty and language skills of the king James staff, the reporters, and all those mediators that claim that Jesus indeed said those things. Are you sure that the helper of King James that wrote the bible have achieved his purpose and is going to heaven.

1)Do you have a reason to believe that what they wrote/translated?

2)If so, provide some evidence that what they did was flawed

If you cannot provide these two things, then when you that something is flawed or corrupted, you are merely speculating and nothing more.

Keep telling that to yourself, does it get more convincing everytime you say it.

Nice rebuttal, but it works both ways. So I turn it back to you; if you keep telling yourself that it isn't true, does it make less convincing?

 

[everneo]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Who said these words?

Originally posted by jcarl
The bridge is Christ; there is no other way to get to God.

So God is of no use to humans with out Christ.?!

Having faith in Christ is onething, under-estimating God's ability is another thing.

 

[jcarl]

I'm not saying he can't. I'm just saying that he doesn't.

 

[everneo]

Originally posted by jcarl
I'm not saying he can't. I'm just saying that he doesn't.

Again, none can be sure of what God does or does not.

 

[jcarl]

But when two(or more) things that say that they are of God contradict each other, then they both can't be true.

 

[everneo]

I don't get you, would you mind elaborate pl. ?

 

[jcarl]

Ok, take Buddha and Christ for example. Gautama said,"Buddhas do but point the way; work out you salvation with diligence."

Conversely, Christ said," I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes unto the Father but by me."

Here we see two contradictory views: salvation by works(diligence) and salvation by faith. Now these two cannot be fully reconciled with each other. So either one is true, the other is true, or they're both wrong. They can't both be right.

 

[miss khan]

If we were all judged farily, then we'd all be in Hell b/c we all fall short of the glory of God. This is where a bridge must be built to get across the gap between God and man. This gap can only be crossed by God. The bridge is Christ; there is no other way to get to God.

What an unmerciful God you have created for yourself. Does your God show no mercy to man, without Christ in the middle? I thought Christianity was all about love and mercy. How can you love a God that has no love for you, but only for Christ?

Allah is Ar-Rehman, the Most Merciful, Ar-Rahim, Oft-Forgiving and NOONE stands between you and His mercy. Alhumdulillah

 

[jcarl]

Originally posted by miss khan
What an unmerciful God you have created for yourself. Does your God show no mercy to man, without Christ in the middle?

Hmm....interesting point. God provides us a way to get to him even though we don't deserve it, and he's still unmerciful. That's like someone telling you," I'll let you be with me, but you're kinda dirty. Here take a shower in my bathroom and put on some of my clothes and then you can come join me."

Christ is the mercy. He stood in our place, and took the blame for our sins when he did absolutely nothing wrong. You don't call that merciful?

 

[miss khan]

I understand that Christ is your mercy, but why are you nothing in the sight of God withuot Christ's help? I cant beleive how diff it is from the way Islam views God's mercy.
You are God's creation .. why does he have no mercy for you alone?

He stood in our place, and took the blame for our sins when he did absolutely nothing wrong

Take responsiblity for your own sins.

 

[Flores]

I've just found your bug..

Originally posted by jcarl
If we were all judged farily, then we'd all be in Hell b/c we all fall short of the glory of God. This is where a bridge must be built to get across the gap between God and man. This gap can only be crossed by God. The bridge is Christ; there is no other way to get to God.

Everything you said is saddening and wrong...First, you are predicting and interfering with god's ability to judge and assuming that god is this simple idiotic scale machine that judges similarly to a cacheir machine. Don't compare god's fairness with your much less than perfect judgement of what is fair and what is not. God's fairness doesn't match that of any man. Again, you're showing us a perfect example of your inability to trust in god...You don't trust in god, you don't love god, you don't expect mercy from god, and I wish you all the luck with your bridge to god and I hope it takes you there. I for one will remain in my seat in submission to god and the all powerfull mighty will save me or condemn me as he wish...Whatever god decide for me, I have already accepted it in my heart, because I trust in god and I love god.

I do feel for you. Your inability to grasp fundemental moral concepts, subtelties, and real meanings for words like trust, love, ect.... would qualify you to be a dictator...

Originally posted by jcarl
The human race has no case. It cannot give enough evidence in its favor to earn the salvation. God cannot be in the presence of sin/sinners.

Please jcarl, can you be a bit more reasonable??. You have condemned yourself to damnation before the trial have even taken place. Why would god overturn your sorry ass self-damnation....? You remind me of a story about my mother in law. She went to traffic court to face her traffic violation. The judge asked if the officer and wittness is present and they were both absent. The judge then said, If you plead non-guilty, I'll dismiss the case. She said, I plead guilty your honor. He smiled and said, case dismissed. You on the other hand would be standing in the empty christ court room with a bunch of loosers waiting for christ. You can't face god with your guilt and you have condemned yourself to the fire. Christ won't show up because christ is standing in god's court room facing god with his own life and you are all Absent and self condemned.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Re: Re: Re: Who said these words?

Originally posted by davewhite04
Hiya Randolfo,

I'm a christian but I do not see these ultraviolets etc. you talk of? Are you being funny? Or do you REALLY see them?

Thanks.

Dave

It’s a metaphor, it’s the difference that I noticed years later, when I re-read one of Paul’s letters, I didn’t understand then, until I became a Christian. When I had read it before; as an uncommitted, raised as a catholic, living as a pagan, young kid, it meant only puzzlement, a ‘huh, what was that about?’ moment. It’s the same thing, as a 'eureka moment', when you see a ‘solution’ or ‘idea’, that is obvious, but was up to that time, unexplained or not understood.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by Raithere
Please tell me you are joking.

~Raithere

you do understand metaphors, right?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by Flores
Unlike you, I'm free to think....

My choices would never narrow me down to the gutter hole that you permenantly reside in.

A hole where a human have reduced to a christ killer to justify his own purpose of life and existance....

What a dark danky hole that I never wish to enter...A hole full of blood, blame,

zero logic, and where the perpetraitors live on the backs and lives of the innocent.

keep accusing yourself of a murder that you never commited....For any other logical thought on your behalf would indeed confuse me.

Free to think? if that were true, you would have left islam long ago, you are trapped in the ‘matrix’ of islam; blind, bitter & a slave to falsehood. Why do you fight against Christianity so hard, if it is as ‘false’ as you say? Just like Paul? Islam, can’t prove it’s more than a false copy, anti-Christianity religion, meant to send people to ‘satan of the crescent moon’. Circular thinking, illogical, un-historical, myth.

Gutter? Hole? Perpetrators? Don't talk about islam so openly! Tell us more about your so-called ‘prophet’, that man of upright character; you know, the child molester, warmonger, slave raider, ethnic-cleanser, pirate, and mythmaker?

 

[jcarl]

Originally posted by miss khan
I understand that Christ is your mercy, but why are you nothing in the sight of God withuot Christ's help?

God is perfect, I am not. There is no path I can follow that I can become worthy of God's prescence. I can't work my way to God, but God can come down to me, which he did in the form of Christ, that my sins might be washed away and myself allowed to be in the prescence of God. It's not that I am nothing, just that I can't possibly measure up to the standard of God.

I cant beleive how diff it is from the way Islam views God's mercy.
You are God's creation .. why does he have no mercy for you alone?

Because I have strayed, just like we all have. We have all disobeyed God's rules and are therefore not fit for His prescence. Shed Blood of a perfect sacrifice is the only atonement for sin. Jesus paid this atonement at the cross for everybody, but only a few will accept it.

Take responsiblity for your own sins.

I thought you said that God was a God of mercy? If i stood before God and there was no Christ, then I would be given the justice that I deserve. But God is a merciful God who gave me Jesus as the way to gain access to Heaven.

This is Flores's 2 cents

Everything you said is saddening and wrong...First, you are predicting and interfering with god's ability to judge and assuming that god is this simple idiotic scale machine that judges similarly to a cacheir machine.

Ok the analogy here loses me; some clarification if you will.

Don't compare god's fairness with your much less than perfect judgement of what is fair and what is not. God's fairness doesn't match that of any man.

We've all sinned. By fairness and justice standards, we would be condemned to Hell because we don't measure up. We have no hope if God truly judged fairly. But didn't you say yourself that God is a merciful God? If that is the case, then our only hope is in Christ, for there is no name given among men whereby we might be saved. He is our hope for God.

Again, you're showing us a perfect example of your inability to trust in god...

ok....some explanation would be nice.

You don't trust in god

I trust in God that God the Son's sacrifice is sufficient to cover me.

, you don't love god,

My bad didn't realize that you could read my heart. Furthermore, what leads you to believe that I don't?

you don't expect mercy from god,

Umm....yes I do. God's mercy is in Christ. That is my faith.

and I wish you all the luck with your bridge to god and I hope it takes you there. I for one will remain in my seat in submission to god and the all powerfull mighty will save me or condemn me as he wish

So why be Muslim at all? You don't have any certainty that God will let you into heaven, so why bother?

...Whatever god decide for me, I have already accepted it in my heart, because I trust in god and I love god.

You say you trust in God but you don't know if he'll save you?

I do feel for you. Your inability to grasp fundemental moral concepts, subtelties, and real meanings for words like trust, love, ect.... would qualify you to be a dictator...

Wow, and how do you manage this assumption?

 

[davewhite04]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Who said these words?

Originally posted by Randolfo
It’s a metaphor, it’s the difference that I noticed years later, when I re-read one of Paul’s letters, I didn’t understand then, until I became a Christian. When I had read it before; as an uncommitted, raised as a catholic, living as a pagan, young kid, it meant only puzzlement, a ‘huh, what was that about?’ moment. It’s the same thing, as a 'eureka moment', when you see a ‘solution’ or ‘idea’, that is obvious, but was up to that time, unexplained or not understood.

Oh I see, I was just checking

Dave

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally posted by miss khan
I understand that Christ is your mercy, but why are you nothing in the sight of God withuot Christ's help?

According to Christianity, that's right

I cant beleive how diff it is from the way Islam views God's mercy.

that's because they are two diff religions, no connection, except were Mohammad included Jewish targums that he had heard.
the following quote is from:
http://answering-islam.org.uk/Books/Torrey/torrey2.htm

"In view of Mohammed's great interest in the Jewish scriptures, and the length of time during which he must have been receiving instruction in them; in view also of certain features in the Koran, it is easy to believe that he may have gained this gentle eminence in comparative Semitic philology. It is perhaps not too fanciful a conjecture that the brief exclamatory utterance which is believed with good reason to have constituted the very beginning of the Koran contains reference to this fact. Sura 96:3-5: "Recite! for thy Lord is the most gracious One; who teaches the use of the pen; teaches man what he had not known." The three lines are built upon the word qalam, "pen," which furnishes the threefold rhyme. Doubtless the thought of the Jewish and Christian scripture is in the background; but we should hardly expect the human element in the divine revelation to be so strongly emphasized, in this brief outburst, unless the message to the Arabs was also in mind. There is a personal note in the announcement: "Thy Lord is most gracious." It is natural to think that the nascent prophet here speaks out of the consciousness of his own experience. "

Some terms:
http://www.pitts.emory.edu/ResearchAssist/BIB/jewish.html

You are God's creation .. why does he have no mercy for you alone?

mercy for all of us, we (our motives, heart, mind) are full of sin. Christianity states that we are all sinners

Take responsiblity for your own sins.

According to Christianity, we do take responsibility, it's just that that does not 'erase' the sins; because no good deeds, no good works, no good character, saves us, only Jesus washes us clean form our sins.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by Randolfo
Free to think? if that were true, you would have left islam long ago,

Why would I leave the concept of "Submission to my creator". There is no other concept out there more unified and more correct.

Originally posted by Randolfo
you are trapped in the ‘matrix’ of islam;

Better be in the rightfull matrix of god than lost like you in christ blood and bad logic. I'll have the matrix of god anytime anywhere.

Originally posted by Randolfo
Why do you fight against Christianity so hard,

I don't fight christianity, only those that insist on calling paganism christianity.

Originally posted by Randolfo
if it is as ‘false’ as you say? Just like Paul? Islam, can’t prove it’s more than a false copy, anti-Christianity religion, meant to send people to ‘satan of the crescent moon’. Circular thinking, illogical, un-historical, myth.

True, and even if you convert your ass to a muslim will be shiped to hell because you lack the brain power to understand either Islam or christianity. You have the brain power to corrupt any religion with your unclean thoughts and god will never be present infront of unclean minds. Now go back to your hole and insult your brain a little more....It's calling you