Who said these words?

[gangadeen3]

Originally posted by okinrus
[

No, you are wrong. Aa a case in point, assume you are right. Then we could gain a higher state of worshiping God by killing ourselves. You accuse me of thickheadness but then accept what M*W says as truth? All musilms that I have spoken to believe that they worship directly God. You seem to be a freethinking muslim and that's ok but you don't have to accept cult doctrin. Sin means separation from God. Are you suggesting there is another separation that is not part of the sinful separation? We are separated by sin if even by Adam's sin. [/B]

i am hindu and live wth moslems all my life and know wat they belive and wat not but you christians sound like universe's most confuse people. i disagree with both of you but again i think christian confused them self pretty bad.

 

[okinrus]

Please discuss the points raised in contention if you want to quote from it. I'm not trying to prove that christians are better than muslims but if you can't say why you think christians are confused or what sect of christians you think are confused, then there's really no point even trying to discuss anything with you.

 

[guthrie]

Originally posted by Flores
And you expect me to answer you???? Direct the same question to yourself and see how you'll feel?? How would you feel if all your life, your senses, your love, your ideas, your passion, your work, your believes, ect...have been constrained and compressed to one word...Is it fair to compress the whole of me into one word? Wouldn't that be a lie? In what logic is that possible?

Please rephrase your question, because the only answer I could find for your general question is:
I'm what I'm and that's all that I am.

Well, since you wont give a straight answer in any form, I might as well dig deeper.
The simple point is, that starting a thread like this is quite pointless, merely an occaision to slag off a religion you dislike. Then, you seem to post from the Quran a lot, yet take umbrage at the thread on the origins of said Quran. Therefore, I smell some double standards. If you are simlpy you, why this urgent need to debate how bad some other religion is with people? From my point as an agnostic, its silly, just get on with yous own religion and youll find out eventually how it goes.

 

[okinrus]

Well I don't mind Flores questions. It's odd that she uses Pslam 22. It's somewhat of a messianic prophesy but beyond that, there's no reason to believe that it is a literal prophesy.

Sorry for the length in making my point. I wanted to comment on your last statement about my "whole reaction against man-made things." My feelings are: Woman is a positive and creative force by nature. Man is a negative and destructive force by nature. In the "beginning," when God took Adam's rib to create Eve, this signifies that the spirit of the one perfect human being (Adam was the template for all humanity), and was divided into two separate forces--positive creative energy is personified as Eve, an negative, destructive energy is personified as Adam.

Eve means the mother of all women. Before the fall, she was called the women. Similarly, Mary the women who is sinless is called the women by Jesus and John. The verses before this creation account say, "In the image God he created them male and female" or something ilke that. There's no reason to assume that women were not created in the image of God. Here, you might want to compare your creation interpretation with the gnostic interpretations of these verses.

If Adam was created perfectly, then where did this negative force come from?

When the male tribal members were out for the kill, it was them females of the tribe who hunted small animals and gathered plants and roots to keep their progeny alive until the males returned with the meat and cooked and carved it (there is a gene on the Y chromosome that causes men, even to this day, to hunt for their meat, cook on an open firepit (i.e. BBQ), proudly carve and distribute their kill to the tribal members as a celebration (i.e. Thanksgiving

There are men who are vegetarians if you haven't noticed.

Every man I've known has had this gene, but I've never seen any shelves built any of them. It's one of those "mutant" genes we've heard about). Women were the first slaves. I'm sure you've heard that the "oldest profession" is prostitution.

I hope you are joking. Your claim to women's superiority is similar to Hitler's claims concerning the Jews. Why do you suppose women were the first slaves?

I'm just glad to be a woman who has a positive vision for the future of humanity. God.

I thought that you just said that the positive force was women?
Wouldn't a union of the positive and negative forces create an imperfect slightly negative and slightly positive being?

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by guthrie
Well, since you wont give a straight answer in any form, I might as well dig deeper.

You can't dig deeper with me, you'll be so disapointed and bored, because I'm as simple as could be...All you're going to get is what I've been saying all along.

Originally posted by guthrie
The simple point is, that starting a thread like this is quite pointless, merely an occaision to slag off a religion you dislike.

That's not true. I respect christians quite a bit, and that's why I question some of the things that I can't understand. Not because I dislike them, that's not me...I question christians the same way I hammer my sister and my husband on certain issues just to bridge the gaps in thoughts and reach closer understanding and compremises. The end product is two educated entities and a whole lot of understanding and closeness.

Originally posted by guthrie
Then, you seem to post from the Quran a lot, yet take umbrage at the thread on the origins of said Quran.

I believe I have made myself clear on the thread origins of Quran. While I don't care much about the origin of a peace of work, I'm quite interested in the content and merit of the works. Posts from the Quran that I use, I find quite amazing and true and I use them like I would quote Socrates or any other philosopher. I don't care if Socrates had a failed marriage and was quite an unrightous dude...I liked his views on rightousness and that's how I view the Quran..merely from a content point of view.

Originally posted by guthrie
Therefore, I smell some double standards.

You are smelling your own upper lip for that's the most closest to you...

Originally posted by guthrie
If you are simlpy you, why this urgent need to debate how bad some other religion is with people?

I don't sense any urgency???Why do you sense any?? My world has existed fine before and through and after sciforums....Don't mistake pass time BS with urgency.

Originally posted by guthrie
From my point as an agnostic, its silly, just get on with yous own religion and youll find out eventually how it goes.

I'm not waiting for you to click by Start button....My life is going on as we speak.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by okinrus
The test analogy does not work if God knows everything including the answers we will choose.

That's where I and other muslims disagree with you. God know the outcome of every action, yet we chose the action to make from an array of choices also known by god. God doesn't force us to commit evil nor good. We commit and our reactions are delineated in god's eternal map.

Originally posted by okinrus
You don't think I can prove that Jesus is God from the bible? The Light is God's glory. It is apart of him because God is glorified for all time.

I don't seek to change your mind regarding Jesus as god, although it bothers me quite a bit not to see eye on eye with you on that point. Something deep inside of me prohibits me from associating anyone with my creator...accepting that my god is a human like Jesus is the equivalent of chaining me for eternity in a hell fire....I won't define my creator and I won't place him in a jar of my making...I will hold up my idealistic high undefinable views about my creator in a place that couldn't be touched and I seek that place for refuge againest any hardship.

Originally posted by okinrus
No, you are wrong. Aa a case in point, assume you are right. Then we could gain a higher state of worshiping God by killing ourselves.

But such a thing is terribly wrong and prohibited by the Quran. I didn't say that being dead gets us closer to god. It merely exposes to us the truth about our lives and we might like or not like what we see.

Originally posted by okinrus
You accuse me of thickheadness but then accept what M*W says as truth?

I don't accept 80% of what MW says about god...specially the fact that we are gods and we are already in heaven....Are you happy now?

Originally posted by okinrus
All musilms that I have spoken to believe that they worship directly God.

So do I with every bone in my body.

Originally posted by okinrus
You seem to be a freethinking muslim and that's ok but you don't have to accept cult doctrin.

And which cult doctrin are you speaking of?

Originally posted by okinrus
Sin means separation from God. Are you suggesting there is another separation that is not part of the sinful separation? We are separated by sin if even by Adam's sin.

I don't care to get to deep in this discussion because it's void. The key is to live our lives knowing that we are under the ever watchfull eyes of god.. God is always present for the good and the bad....This on it's own is the greatest deterrent from sin. God still watches sinners, but sinners don't care about god so they continue what they're doing...Others feel god's presence in their life more and are more carefull to act properly in the presence of god. I feel god's presence more in private..I almost feel every step I take and the air is quite heavy for me when I'm alone. God is always present, but feeling god's presence is a mental state.

 

[okinrus]

That's where I and other muslims disagree with you. God know the outcome of every action, yet we chose the action to make from an array of choices also known by god. God doesn't force us to commit evil nor good. We commit and our reactions are delineated in god's eternal map.

Alot of Christians as well but there is a muslim sect that believes sort of what I believe on this issue. I simply believe that God could if he wanted to know our actions. Yet to give us free will, he allows us to make our own decisions. This is supported somewhat by the words used by Moses in the old testamented. Moses said that Yahweh was testing them in order to find out if they truely loved them. A God who knows the future would not need to find out nor test. Thus I interpret "all-knowing" to be the past, preset, and good deal of the future but not the entire future. God may know the future consequences of every possible choice but not know the choice we will make.

Something deep inside of me prohibits me from associating anyone with my creator...accepting that my god is a human like

Well do what your concience demands.

Jesus is the equivalent of chaining me for eternity in a hell fire....I won't define my creator and I won't place him in a jar of my making...I will hold up my idealistic high undefinable views about my creator in a place that couldn't be touched and I seek that replace for refuge againest any hardship.

I don't claim to define God who defines himself. In some ways it seems that you are limiting God's humbleness.

But such a thing is terribly wrong and prohibited by the Quran. I didn't say that being dead gets us closer to god. It merely exposes to us the truth about our lives and we might like or not like what we see.

Yes, I know. It's wrong not because the skin is between you and God but because suicide is sinful. Denial of sin seperating us from God would result in a similar conclusion to that which I gave you.

I don't accept 80% of what MW says about god...specially the fact that we are gods and we are already in heaven....Are you happy now?

I thought you would be happy.

And which cult doctrin are you speaking of?

There was quite a few suicide cults.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by okinrus
but there is a muslim sect that believes sort of what I believe on this issue. I simply believe that God could if he wanted to know our actions. Yet to give us free will, he allows us to make our own decisions. This is supported somewhat by the words used by Moses in the old testamented. Moses said that Yahweh was testing them in order to find out if they truely loved them. A God who knows the future would not need to find out nor test. Thus I interpret "all-knowing" to be the past, preset, and good deal of the future but not the entire future. God may know the future consequences of every possible choice but not know the choice we will make.

I believe in that also. God taught this concept in detail to Moses in the Quran. Remember the story of the angle that Moses was allowed to follow on the condition that he doesn't ask him why the angel did the thing he did under the command of god. Another aspect of free will that people often miss is accepting god's will and being in peace with it. We often acts out on our will and refuse to accept god's will....death is a good example.

Originally posted by okinrus
Well do what your concience demands.

Thanks

Originally posted by okinrus
I don't claim to define God who defines himself. In some ways it seems that you are limiting God's humbleness.

I don't wish to impose humbleness on god, because that's an oxymoron....meaning that I'm belittling god. Muslim say Allaho Akbar, meaning god is great..We don't say that god is humble.

Originally posted by okinrus
Yes, I know. It's wrong not because the skin is between you and God but because suicide is sinful.

Suicide is indeed sinful except when you are saving another person....Isn't that what christians proclaim Jesus or god did??. Gave up his only son to save the world. I don't believe the concept, but it's as close to suicide as suicide gets.

Originally posted by okinrus
There was quite a few suicide cults.

And they are all crazy...first for joining a cult, and second for wasting a valuable life that was given to them by god. People that take their lives away don't deserve a break from god.

 

[okinrus]

I don't wish to impose humbleness on god, because that's an oxymoron....meaning that I'm belittling god. Muslim say Allaho Akbar, meaning god is great..We don't say that god is humble.

Well one of the things that Moses said was to follow God because God is holy. Those who are holy are humble and I find greatness in humbleness. When you say that God is merciful, it is a rejection of God's pridefulness. Since as muslims you believe that God is the source of all goodness, unless if humbleness is evil, God is humble.

Suicide is indeed sinful except when you are saving another person....Isn't that what christians proclaim Jesus or god did??. Gave up his only son to save the world. I don't believe the concept, but it's as close to suicide as suicide gets.

Jesus did not commit suicide. He was going to die and he merely let the world kill him.

 

[guthrie]

Originally posted by Flores
You can't dig deeper with me, you'll be so disapointed and bored, because I'm as simple as could be...All you're going to get is what I've been saying all along.

Nope, that still doesnt make that much sense. Or rather it does, but obliquely.

That's not true. I respect christians quite a bit, and that's why I question some of the things that I can't understand. Not because I dislike them, that's not me...I question christians the same way I hammer my sister and my husband on certain issues just to bridge the gaps in thoughts and reach closer understanding and compremises. The end product is two educated entities and a whole lot of understanding and closeness.

Maybe you can learn to do it in a nicer way then.

I believe I have made myself clear on the thread origins of Quran. While I don't care much about the origin of a peace of work, I'm quite interested in the content and merit of the works. Posts from the Quran that I use, I find quite amazing and true and I use them like I would quote Socrates or any other philosopher. I don't care if Socrates had a failed marriage and was quite an unrightous dude...I liked his views on rightousness and that's how I view the Quran..merely from a content point of view.

Well if the origins simply dont matter, why question someones interest in them? FAiling that, at the end of the day, quoting bits you like from the Quran is in a way, merely subjective. Suits you, but how do yuo know its right?

You are smelling your own upper lip for that's the most closest to you...

Maybe I have a cold.

I don't sense any urgency???Why do you sense any?? My world has existed fine before and through and after sciforums....Don't mistake pass time BS with urgency.

oh right, so it is just pass time BS to you?

I'm not waiting for you to click by Start button....My life is going on as we speak.

I never intended to press any of your buttons.

 

[Vienna]

Originally posted by Flores
Who said these words?

I have no idea, and don't start pointing fingers - It wasn't me!

 

[evolove]

Perhaps not so much in (most) Christian Doctorine, but in the religions of India it is accpeted that, for example, Kali is Brahma, God is both iminate and trancendent, it is not a condradiction, and infact teaches one of the most important aspects of Advaita Vedanta. You can see this same view expressed in such schools of thought as Kabbalah and Sufism, to give them rough terms, and (is) can be applied in terms of Christianity. Though in the Judaic/Christian/Islamic traditions those that have attained oness with God ie.
"I am in my Father, and my Father in Me"
"Moses came like one of those who are consumed by desire and lost in love. Moses came without Moses. He came when nothing of Moses remained in Moses."
are not usualy Deiafied, aprt from Jesus, but this is quite ok, are your devotion isn't to any man, but to The Word, or Logos, (Another name Sat, -Meister Eckhart wrote, "Between the Soul and The Onle Begotten Son, there is no difference") so it not realy realy anything but sevotion to your own true self, which is one with God, it IS none other than devotion to God, though not the negatively existant, Father.
The statement of, "I AM," and "I AM THAT I AM" are expressing this non-dual state of consciousness that exists in a person completely unified with God, the same thing can be found in Buddhism, Taoism, (we have covered,) Hinduism, Islam, and most genuine esoteric/occult sects.

 

[okinrus]

The statement of, "I AM," and "I AM THAT I AM" are expressing this non-dual state of consciousness that exists in a person completely unified with God, the same thing can be found in Buddhism, Taoism, (we have covered,) Hinduism, Islam, and most genuine esoteric/occult sects.

I don't quite see becoming one with God, one with God's plan in perfect submision would make us "I AM".

are not usualy Deiafied, aprt from Jesus, but this is quite ok, are your devotion isn't to any man, but to The Word, or Logos,

You mean this don't you? "are not usually Deified, apart from Jesus, but this quite ok because your devotion isn't to any man, but to The Word, or Logos" Worshiping that which is not God is falsehood.

 

[one_raven]

Originally posted by Mucker
Personally I am one Christian who has never said jesus was God himself (as far as I know anyway).

Then wouldn't being a Christian be a sacrelige in itself?

If there is just one God, and Jesus is not it, then wouldn't worshipping, praying to, holding as holy and basing a religion on the words of this mere man break at least the first commandment?


Regarding this topic in general...
From an old post of mine on this forum:

Why revere him as a god-man?
He said he was the son of God.
He ALSO said we are ALL the children of God.
Reading his sermons and teachings he really seemed to me that he was trying to impress on the people that he is NOT special.
He was just a man, just as everyone else is.

When he said that people will find their salvation throught him, he was referring to his WORDS.
His teachings.
He wasn't calling himself God.
He was calling himself human.
He believed simply that he had found the answers to salvation and wanted to share that with the masses out of the goodness of his heart.

Then his follwers, after his death, were out preaching his word, and of course, as it will ALWAYS happen, his deeds and life were imbellished to convert people and convince them that he was not just some crackpot (like all the other "crackpots" of the time that had their OWN interpretations of the Bible).
He had to be "special".
Imbellishments have a way of growing and spreading.

I really don't think that it was any more amazing and supernatural than that.

If he was a physical incarnate of God, he would have SAID that, not said that he was the SON of God.
If he was beyond normal people, or better, or closer to God, then he would not have referred to all mankind as the children of God.

That's what I think anyway.

 

[everneo]

He had to be "special".

God is Love. Love is God. But God is not only limited to Love.

 

[one_raven]

Originally posted by everneo
God is Love. Love is God. But God is not only limited to Love.

:bugeye:
I don't know what that is response to.

You quoted me where I was saying that his early followers imbellished the tales of Jesus and his actions, and said that?

Sorry, I have no idea what you are talking about.
Please explain it.

 

[evolove]

The Word IS God, John:1+

God is I AM, we don't we become this, "When the Perfect comes, the part passes away" There is only God.
A concequence of this is that we become as near to perfect as a human can be, which entails being a vessle for divine will.

 

[everneo]

Originally posted by one_raven
You quoted me where I was saying that his early followers imbellished the tales of Jesus and his actions, and said that?

Yeah, you have given the steps how Jesus needed to be God to christians, that you don't agree with.

But the presence of Holy Ghost besides the 'unique' God (unique - as declared by God himself) tells something to me (though most of the christians might not agree with me !). That, holy ghost is the attributes of God in action and Jesus is one of the main attributes, Love (in flesh). Follow the path of Love you get redemption and if you follow other paths that are not as manifested explicitly as Love then there is a chance of straying. Jesus seems to be the safest path to christians.

Before the christians and atheists bounce on me, say "Merry Christmas".

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by okinrus
Jesus did not commit suicide. He was going to die and he merely let the world kill him.

That's suicide. I'm not saying that Jesus did that, because I don't believe in that.

You have two choices to explain Jesus death:

1- Jesus was indeed at the mercy of the romans, then Jesus was killed or murdered.

2- Jesus died for a preset purpose of saving humanity and he accepted to die in advance, then his death was planned and it's indeed suicide.

So you either killed him or he crucified himself in a suicide...Which one is it?

The third option that muslims and I follow is:

The Women
[4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by guthrie
Well if the origins simply dont matter, why question someones interest in them? FAiling that, at the end of the day, quoting bits you like from the Quran is in a way, merely subjective. Suits you, but how do yuo know its right?

I didn't question the interest nor was I the starter of the Origin of the Quran thread. I'll say this one more time in different words and I hope you get it.

"Digging deeper can always explain inconsistencies, but it will never explain perfection."

Reading the Quran doesn't leave me with a sense that I need to dig any deeper. Reading the bible leaves me with a great sense and need of digging deeper. And hence come my infinite questions and the subject of this thread.

Originally posted by guthrie
quoting bits you like from the Quran is in a way, merely subjective. Suits you, but how do yuo know its right?

Of course it's subjective and i never claimed it to be anything else. I subjectively with every personal bone in my body inspired and intrigued by the Quran and certain parts of the bible. And I know it's right the same way I know and I sure that I'm alive. It's an individual feeling, and It makes sense to ME. the keyword being ME.

Originally posted by guthrie
oh right, so it is just pass time BS to you?

Absolutely.....I'm in the same boat as you.