Who said these words?

[Flores]

Originally posted by jcarl
You say you trust in God but you don't know if he'll save you?

Absolutely. (Not knowing the outcome) is the contingency of true trust....Do you even know what trust means??....Please entertain me and define trust for me.

Trust is a dependancy term. If you are 100% trusting in god, then you view yourself as 100% dependant on god.

You are dependand on the object of your trust and thus if you trust in god, you must depend exclusively on god and god alone. Again, do christians trust in god, or do they place their eggs in multiple baskets from the fear that god will fail them,

 

[jcarl]

Originally posted by Flores
Absolutely. (Not knowing the outcome) is the contingency of true trust

Then how can you know that God is merciful if you're not sure that you're saved/will be saved?

.

...Do you even know what trust means??....Please entertain me and define trust for me.

I define trust as reliance that something will not fail you. In this case, I trust that Christ has died for my sins and because of that God will deliver me.

Trust is a dependancy term. If you are 100% trusting in god, then you view yourself as 100% dependant on god.

I view Christ as God, thus I am 100% dependant on the fact that Jesus's death saved me.

You are dependand on the object of your trust and thus if you trust in god, you must depend exclusively on god and god alone. Again, do christians trust in god, or do they place their eggs in multiple baskets from the fear that god will fail them,

We view Christ and the Father as one(along with the Holy Spirit) We're not placing our eggs in multiple baskets.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Originally posted by jcarl
Then how can you know that God is merciful if you're not sure that you're saved/will be saved?

I define trust as reliance that something will not fail you. In this case, I trust that Christ has died for my sins and because of that God will deliver me.

I view Christ as God, thus I am 100% dependant on the fact that Jesus's death saved me.

We view Christ and the Father as one(along with the Holy Spirit) We're not placing our eggs in multiple baskets.

----------
M*W: Exactly HOW do you know you're saved or will be saved? I'm looking for tangible proof. (The Bible is NOT tangible proof).

What is your purpose for having a life on Earth at this time?

What would you do if you found out beyond a reasonable doubt that Jesus never existed at all?

Suppose Christianity is found out to be a pseudo-faith created by Paul and HIS followers. How would you explain salvation then?

How do you explain "proof" of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit if the Bible didn't exist? Please DO NOT quote the Bible here. I want to hear some TANGIBLE proof.

Thanks.

 

[jcarl]

Originally posted by Medicine*Woman
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M*W: Exactly HOW do you know you're saved or will be saved? I'm looking for tangible proof. (The Bible is NOT tangible proof).

A)Jesus can be shown to exist.
B)His death can be shown to have occured
C)His resurrection has never been successfully refuted(along with stone Nazarene decree, which declares death to anyone who disturbs a tomb or moves a corpse)
Other than that: welcome to faith

What is your purpose for having a life on Earth at this time?

Sorry, but I gotta do it. "Listen now to the whole conclusion of the matter: fear{reverential trust} God and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man." Ecclesiastes 12:13. There is a purpose to life. If there wasn't then why don't we all close the garage and crank up the car?

What would you do if you found out beyond a reasonable doubt that Jesus never existed at all?

In this area, I tend to agree with freethinker Will Durant in that it seems mighty unlikely that the "myth" of Christ would arise within one generation. Thus, it would be right next, if not on, impossible for this to occur. So what would I do? I think I'll cross that bridge, if it exists, when I get to it.

Suppose Christianity is found out to be a pseudo-faith created by Paul and HIS followers. How would you explain salvation then?

Let me first ask you this: how is it that Paul can invent a religion, turn against it, and then go back to it and have any authority? But see my above response for what I'd do.

How do you explain "proof" of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit if the Bible didn't exist? Please DO NOT quote the Bible here. I want to hear some TANGIBLE proof.

This is like asking me to prove the theory of Relativity w/o Einstein or explain the proof of calculus w/o Newton's stuff.

Furthermore, what constitutes in your mind tangible proof?

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by jcarl
I view Christ as God, thus I am 100% dependant on the fact that Jesus's death saved me.

You are 100% wrong.

All of the writers of the Bible believed that God was not Jesus. The idea that Jesus is God did not become part of Christian belief until after the Bible was written, and took many centuries to become part of the faith of Christians.

Matthew, Mark, and Luke, authors of the first three Gospels, believed that Jesus was not God (see Mark 10:18 and Matthew 19:17). They believed that he was the son of God in the sense of a righteous person. Many others too, are similarly called sons of God (see Matthew ch.23, vv. 1,9).

Paul, believed to be the author of some thirteen or fourteen letters in the Bible, also believed that Jesus is not God. For Paul, God first created Jesus, then used Jesus as the agent by which to create the rest of creation (see Colossians ch. 1, v. 15 and 1Corinthians ch. 8, v. 6). Similar ideas are found in the letter to the Hebrews, and also in the Gospel and Letters of John composed some seventy years after Jesus. In all of these writings, however, Jesus is still a creature of God and is therefore forever subservient to God (see 1 Corinthians 15, v.28).

Now, because Paul, John, and the author of Hebrews believed that Jesus was God’s first creature, some of what they wrote clearly show that Jesus was a pre-existent powerful being. This is often misunderstood to mean that he must have been God. But to say that Jesus was God is to go against what these very authors wrote. Although these authors had this later belief that Jesus is greater than all creatures, they also believed that he was still lesser than God. In fact, John quotes Jesus as saying: The Father is greater than I (John ch. 14, v. 28). And Paul declares that the head of every woman is her husband, the head of every man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God (1 Corinthians ch.11, v. 3).

Therefore, to find something in these writings and claim that these teach that Jesus is God is to misuse and misquote what those authors are saying. What they wrote must be understood in the context of their belief that Jesus is a creature of God as they have already clearly said.

So we see then, that some of the later writers had a higher view of Jesus, but none of the writers of the Bible believed that Jesus is God. The Bible clearly teaches that there is only one true God, the one whom Jesus worshipped (see John ch. 17, v. 3).

http://www3.sympatico.ca/shabir.ally/new_page_39.htm

 

[cygonaut]

Originally posted by okinrus
The Father is God of Jesus yet both share in one divinity.

What do you mean by "yet"?

 

[Flores]

Originally posted by jcarl
I define trust as reliance that something will not fail you. In this case, I trust that Christ has died for my sins and because of that God will deliver me.

That is not trust. That's taking for granted....And if you claim that you trust in god with your weird unacceptable standards, then you have just demonstrated that you and christians don't fear god. Something that Jesus asked us to do....fear the lord.

It's the fear of god that makes us do the right thing.
Gen.20
[11] And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake.

Dan.6
[26] I make a decree, That in every dominion of my kingdom men tremble and fear before the God of Daniel: for he is the living God, and stedfast for ever, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed, and his dominion shall be even unto the end.

1Pet.2
[17] Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

Rev.14
[7] Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Do you fear god Jcarl? Do you fear Jesus? Why do you fear jcarl? I though that you are certain that you are going to heaven...If you are certain, they you don't fear nor trust, you take for granted.

You are taking for granted that Jesus have died for you.....I can't believe that you can't distinguish between the subtelty and beauty of trust and the selfish concept of "taking for granted"... When you start learning the real meaning of the word trust, you get this funny butterfly feeling in your stomach...I doubt you'll ever get the feeling.

 

[okinrus]

What do you mean by "yet"?

"but"
Paul says that the Father is God of Jesus. The interpretation of this is that the Jesus serves the Father, so this in respect to relationshp rather than a hierachy of gods. Jesus is divine, however, because all of the Father's power has been given to him and he is not a creation.

That is not trust. That's taking for granted....And if you claim that you trust in god with your weird unacceptable standards, then you have just demonstrated that you and christians don't fear god. Something that Jesus asked us to do....fear the lord.

Trust is relying on God's saving grace to save. His grace and love are manifested on the cross, so on the cross we see God most clearly. Fear that does not come from God is from Satan. Thus said, when we fear God, we obey his commandments(the two great ones along with the one he gave his disciples) since all those who love him obey.

 

[Flores]

"but"
Paul says that the Father is God of Jesus. The interpretation of this is that the Jesus serves the Father, so this in respect to relationshp rather than a hierachy of gods. Jesus is divine, however, because all of the Father's power has been given to him and he is not a creation.

How exactly to you deduce from the simple words that "The Father is God of Jesus" to mean that Jesus is not a creation??? The Father is mine and your god and we are indeed his creation...Why are you short circuiting with your logic?

Trust is relying on God's saving grace to save. His grace and love are manifested on the cross, so on the cross we see God most clearly.

Again, please explain how do you see love manifested on a wooden stick designed to kill human beings....You can tell me how you symbolically may see this, but manifest, give me a break....

Fear that does not come from God is from Satan. Thus said, when we fear God, we obey his commandments(the two great ones along with the one he gave his disciples) since all those who love him obey.

Yet, christians haven't figured out the "fear god" and "obey" in their equation of salvation. Christians say that Jesus have already died for all our sins, so why fear god and why obey god?

 

[jcarl]

You are 100% wrong.

All of the writers of the Bible believed that God was not Jesus. The idea that Jesus is God did not become part of Christian belief until after the Bible was written, and took many centuries to become part of the faith of Christians. [/B]

Wow. John 8:58, Jesus is claiming the same thing that came out of the flaming bush, that he was Yaweh. Try John 5:18, where he claims equality with God. Try Matthew 28:18, where he claims equal authority of God. Look at the beginning of Mark chapter 2. It's clear that he claimed deity.

Matthew, Mark, and Luke, authors of the first three Gospels, believed that Jesus was not God (see Mark 10:18 and Matthew 19:17).

Here Jesus is simply stating the inescaple dilemna: either He is God or He isn't a "good person"

They believed that he was the son of God in the sense of a righteous person. Many others too, are similarly called sons of God (see Matthew ch.23, vv. 1,9).

If they interpreted it this way then they wouldn't have picked up stones to throw at him for blasephemy.(John 10:31)

Paul, believed to be the author of some thirteen or fourteen letters in the Bible, also believed that Jesus is not God. For Paul, God first created Jesus,

Hold on, if Jesus was created by Paul, the why do you consider him a prophet?

then used Jesus as the agent by which to create the rest of creation (see Colossians ch. 1, v. 15 and 1Corinthians ch. 8, v. 6). Similar ideas are found in the letter to the Hebrews, and also in the Gospel and Letters of John composed some seventy years after Jesus.

These are taken way out of context. on 1st Corinthians 15:28, it's just showing that Christ is one with the Father. Read verses 24-28.

In all of these writings, however, Jesus is still a creature of God and is therefore forever subservient to God (see 1 Corinthians 15, v.28).

Check out verse 24.

Now, because Paul, John, and the author of Hebrews believed that Jesus was God’s first creature, some of what they wrote clearly show that Jesus was a pre-existent powerful being.

John 1:1-"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

1Tim. 2:3-"FOr this is good and acceptable in the sight of God and our Savior."

[Quoet] This is often misunderstood to mean that he must have been God. But to say that Jesus was God is to go against what these very authors wrote.[/Quote]

No it isn't. See all of the above.

Although these authors had this later belief that Jesus is greater than all creatures, they also believed that he was still lesser than God. In fact, John quotes Jesus as saying: The Father is greater than I (John ch. 14, v. 28).

Read all of Heb. 1 and 2 up to 2:8; then, with that understood, read verse 9 and onward.

B]And Paul declares that the head of every woman is her husband, the head of every man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God (1 Corinthians ch.11, v. 3).[/B]

All that is talking about is a theological hierarchy of the Godhead. It has nothing to do with power or superiority

So we see then, that some of the later writers had a higher view of Jesus, but none of the writers of the Bible believed that Jesus is God. The Bible clearly teaches that there is only one true God, the one whom Jesus worshipped (see John ch. 17, v. 3).

Christ is the Father's love gift to us, and we are Christ's love gift to the Father. It doesn't have anyting to do with superiority.

That is not trust. That's taking for granted....And if you claim that you trust in god with your weird unacceptable standards, then you have just demonstrated that you and christians don't fear god. Something that Jesus asked us to do....fear the lord.

To fear God means to have referential trust toward God.

Do you fear god Jcarl? Do you fear Jesus? Why do you fear jcarl? I though that you are certain that you are going to heaven...If you are certain, then you don't fear nor trust, you take for granted.

Will I go to Heaven? I won't know until I die. Until then I trust that God's mercy/grace through Christ will save me. Don't you believe in God's mercy/grace?

You are taking for granted that Jesus have died for you.....I can't believe that you can't distinguish between the subtelty and beauty of trust and the selfish concept of "taking for granted"... When you start learning the real meaning of the word trust, you get this funny butterfly feeling in your stomach...I doubt you'll ever get the feeling.

Please then, let me know your defn. of trust.

Selfish, huh? I didn't ask for God to give me Jesus as my sacrifice. He did it because there is no other way to get to God except through atonement of sin(sacrifice), which can only be given by God.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Why would I leave the concept of "Submission to my creator". There is no other concept out there more unified and more correct.

More correctly wrong, sweet dreams little flower, let the matrix take you deeper into its clutches, relax my little energizer bunny, how many watts do you put out?

Better be in the rightfull matrix of god than lost like you in christ blood and bad logic. I'll have the matrix of god anytime anywhere.

still connected to those wires, huh? dream on little girl, in your little cocoon, yes the world is good, islam is true in your dreamworld, don't take the red pill
http://i-took-the-red-pill.com/
or:

I don't fight christianity, only those that insist on calling paganism christianity.

good, then you will fight against any pagan influences, no matter where? Start with 'islam' first, move the qibla back to Jerusalem, stop hajj to Mecca & go to Jerusalem, get rid of any crescent moons designs & motifs, stop believing that 'works' save you, and stop worshipping alllah of the 3 daughters & follow YHWH, the God of the Universe

True, and even if you convert your ass to a muslim will be shiped to hell because you lack the brain power to understand either Islam or christianity. You have the brain power to corrupt any religion with your unclean thoughts and god will never be present infront of unclean minds. Now go back to your hole and insult your brain a little more....It's calling you

Ah, so judgmental, who are you to say what my ultimate end will be? since when has brainpower saved in Christianity (or islam for that matter) or life in general? unclean? hole? what are you talking about? You are so judgmental little flower, are thou a bee or a buttercup? Why do you bring up brainpower? are you going to tell us that you are genius with a 140 I.Q.? Since you are arguing against me, with such weak logic, we all know you can't be more that an average 100. The beauty of Christianity is; that if you are sincere in converting to it, God accepts you, warts & all (see life of King David or the life of Paul of Tarsus) so that takes care of people like me, no matter what others think; where does that leave you?