No, it's not. Jesus did the will of the Father. The will of the Father was that Jesus would die so Jesus did not defend himself. Jesus said something like "not my will be done, but yours". Jesus only followed the Father's will. Similarly, if it is the will of the Father that I will die, I will surely die.
Who said these words?
- Thread starter Flores
- Start date
Come on Okinrus?? Stop defending such flawed logic and state your real reasons.
Why would a father sentence a child to torture and death at the hands of those that mocked and scorned him??? Why would an all powerfull god do such a nonesense thing. Here's god's tendency throughout the bible and Quran.
God forgave adam and gave him a way of life on earth despite of his sin.
God saved Noah from those that opressed him and didn't believe in him.
God saved Abraham from the opressors that threw him in a fire, yet the fire was commanded to cool.
God saved Jonah from the stomach of the whale.
God saved David from Goliath.
And many many more...God saved every single one of his prophets.
Why would that same god act in such an obtuse way and let a bunch of morons kill his sent prophet. And not just that, you say that god would let his prophet get killed by worthless people without any worthy wittnesses????? It's not god that killed Jesus, assuming Jesus died on the cross, it's the filthy angry romans and jews who were threatened by Jesus, just like every other people were threatened by their prophet. If people appreciated Jesus and believed in him as a prophet, he wouldn't have been sentenced to die public execution style.
The Father did not "sentence" Jesus to die. The will of the Father was to allow sin to kill Jesus so that we might have life.
The the curse was to all decendants. While Adam may have been forgiven, the curse still exists.
We have accounts outside of the bible that Isaiah and Zecharias were marytred. In the New Testament, John the baptists' head was cutoff.
Flores:
This is basic Christian belief. I'm surprised you don't know the answer.
God allowed Jesus to be crucified to set an example for all all people. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only son..." etc etc.
Jesus died for our sins, or so say the Christians.
This is basic Christian belief. I'm surprised you don't know the answer.
God allowed Jesus to be crucified to set an example for all all people. "For God so loved the world that he gave his only son..." etc etc.
Jesus died for our sins, or so say the Christians.
W
WildBlueYonder
Guest
She can't, it would drive her crazy, knowing that she would have no choice but to become a Christian afterward, just like Paul of Tarsus
W
WildBlueYonder
Guest
the question is, did God save Flores? The answer is, "YES", by the power of God, through Jesus Christ. Flores, stop being so obtuse, read about the man you claim to know, find out what "Jesus" means, finds out what "Messiah" means, then, if you really believe that Jesus existed, find out who He was from people that knew Him, That still know Him, (that would be Christians, my dear little flower)
Why would that same god act in such an obtuse way and let a bunch of morons kill his sent prophet.
Why does your god allow a bunch of morons to kill?
It's not god that killed Jesus, assuming Jesus died on the cross, it's the filthy angry romans and jews who were threatened by Jesus, just like every other people were threatened by their prophet.
The same could be said of Mohammed. He threatened and killed all who disbelieved he was a prophet.
Why does your god allow a bunch of morons to kill?
It's not god that killed Jesus, assuming Jesus died on the cross, it's the filthy angry romans and jews who were threatened by Jesus, just like every other people were threatened by their prophet.
The same could be said of Mohammed. He threatened and killed all who disbelieved he was a prophet.
W
WildBlueYonder
Guest
David, son of Jesse wrote these words, Jesus spoke the first verse on the cross. Since you are not a Christian, I will interpret the implications for you; Jesus was born, lived, died & was raised again fullfilling prophecy, prophecy that gives us hope, words of encouragement, faith, that God lives, has a part of in our lives, understands us, & is not far from us, but closer than our right hand. Since you are not a Christian, all you see is the visual spectrum, available to all other humans, you see a wall, you see a flower, you see the moon & the stars. But as a Christian, we see the infrared, ultraviolet, gamma, microwave & the rest of the electromagnetic spectrum. You see, you are truly 'blind', but since you are used to seeing only as a human, you don't know hat you are blind. Open your eyes, step out of the'Matrix' that islam has woven over youe eyes & really see the world around you, read more of the Bible, see if God opens your ears & heart too, so that you stop being just human, and become human as God meant you to be.
Psalm 22 is prophecy concerning Christs death. It doesn't talk about his deity. When the Bible quotes Jesus as saying "I and the Father are One"(John 10:30),{Jews obviously took this to mean that Jesus was claiming that he was God thus they began to pick up stones to stone him.} and "All authority has been given unto Me in Heaven and on Earth"(Matthew28:18)., and "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM"(John 8:58)" this is claiming his deity. Anyone who says that Jesus didn't claim to be God is fooling themselves.
Its not that we pick/choose the verses. One verse talks about Christ's deity; another is talking about something else, so it's not mentioned.
Or is it that you are saying that one verse says the he is God and another says that he isn't God? Which verses are these, and are these the things we "ignore"?
First off if Jesus is God, then the worship/glory isn't stolen at all.
God didn't forsake Jesus to take his(God's) place. God forsake Jesus b/c to become the sacrifice, Jesus became sin for us in God's eyes. God cannot be in the prescence of Sin. Therefore, God forsook(correct spelling?) Jesus.
davewhite04
Valued Senior Member
Re: Re: Who said these words?
Hiya Randolfo,
I'm a christian but I do not see these ultraviolets etc. you talk of? Are you being funny? Or do you REALLY see them?
Thanks.
Dave
Hiya Randolfo,
I'm a christian but I do not see these ultraviolets etc. you talk of? Are you being funny? Or do you REALLY see them?
Thanks.
Dave
Unlike you, I'm free to think....My choices would never narrow me down to the gutter hole that you permenantly reside in. A hole where a human have reduced to a christ killer to justify his own purpose of life and existance....What a dark danky hole that I never wish to enter...A hole full of blood, blame, zero logic, and where the perpetraitors live on the backs and lives of the innocent.
And by the way, Paul of Tarsus was indeed driven crazy. His heavy dirty conscious insulted his brain and played a trick on him...What you read in your bible books is the result of a once good brain that was infected by it's own ill conscious. The difference between me and Paul and every other christian is that my conscious is clear from the blood of Jesus....I hope you continue rationalizing and insulting your own brain to justify a death that never happened and to keep accusing yourself of a murder that you never commited....For any other logical thought on your behalf would indeed confuse me.
Re: Re: Who said these words?
What a great example of what christian intellect have reached.
I tried very hard, but I seriously don't get a word you are saying. You sound like a desperate student saying the equivalent of. I couldn't do my homework because it was sinfull so god came and ate it.
What a great example of what christian intellect have reached.
I tried very hard, but I seriously don't get a word you are saying. You sound like a desperate student saying the equivalent of. I couldn't do my homework because it was sinfull so god came and ate it.
It's a check and balance system. Creations are allowed to coexist in free will and they are accountable for their actions. For example, You are free to kill the only cow that gives you milk and work your fields, but you'll eventually have to suffer your ill decision and do without or die. We will all eventually die by design. Morons indeed are free to kill the good within them..But it's the morons that will suffer the most by destroying the reasonable voice within them, because guess what, at the end of the day, the moron will be surrounded by just morons that are no longer needed to kill the good that they already perished, and the end result will be morons killing morons. It's a check and balance system by design..It's perfect.
Really???? One poor Man managed to kill all those that disbelieved the fact that he was a prophet? Damn, he must have had WMD stronger than everything we have...something strong enough to change billions of people's hearts to believe in a massage delievered by one man even after his death. Come on buddy, learn some history and understand the capability and limits of men......Many many strong influencial men existed over history who even ruled as gods.....Where are they now?? What is being said of them now?? Can you perhaps tell us what set Mohammed apart from other kings and rulers. Could it be the simple fact that he wasn't a king or ruler?
He should have wrote a book about how to survive as a prophet? Jesus, Socrates, and others could have learned a thing or two. I for one among many other millions don't feel any threat from a dead Mohammed in a grave and continue to follow the message he develived thousands of years after the fact. I'm even free to curse Mohammed and that doesn't remotely touch the message he delivered.
That Mohammed of yours can't be stronger than Stalin the man of steel and god of Russia, who caused the death and torture of 25 million, yet was charged as a criminal by the same people that worshipped him as a god right after his death. All his status are collecting dust in one museam.....Mohammed doesn't have a single statue made of him....not a single picture depicting how he looked like.... Even the great book that you think he wrote doesn't bear his name on his as an author.... Why not one tribute??
I know their answer, and it's unacceptable and unreasonable.
Let's examine.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his only son..." etc etc.
so they say that Jesus is god only son?? What kind of son? Biological? Spiritual? Did god really give up anything?
If jesus is the biological son of god in flesh, then Jesus is gone for good, for he perished when he died and god have indeed sacrificed him. If god is not bluffing, Jesus is as good as a lamb after you kill it....dead, gone.
But they say that Jesus still lives forever, so what kind of trick sacrifice is that? Did god bluff? I don't wish to play poker with that god that claims to make a sacrifice and then hide the card in the sky safe somewhere? I'm sorry, but when I explained the situation to my four year old, she gave me that answer...honest.
Re: Re: Re: Who said these words?
Then your presuppositions make this thread useless. If you've already determined in your mind/heart that the answer we'll give you is unacceptable, then why start it up in the first place.
I'll rephrase it so that it fits the homework analogy.
I had an assignment I could not accomplish, that being having a link to God himself. I couldn't accomplish it because I hadn't payed attention in class.(analogous to sin in this case). Now there was no way I could finish the assignment, just as there is no way I could work my way up or earn my way back to God's presence.(ok heres where the analogy gets a little exaggerated) Now since I could not finish the assignment/work my way up to God, the teacher than shows me how, just as God sent Jesus to give us the way.
Now this analogy doesn't portray the death part very well, but it was the best I could think of.
Jesus is not a Son as we think of a son. The title just portrays another aspect of God. If Jesus were God's son, then that would make him below God the Father, and this is not the case. All three facets of God are equal in powers; God the Father is simply first in order.
But if he is God then he is capable of raising himself from the dead. He physically died, but if he is God then he is able to rise up.
The only way atonement can take place is by blood. A perfect sacrifice is necessary. Now since no Human alone can do it, then Christ/God had to come down to us. Now Jesus is all human and yet can stlll be God at the same time.(think of it as light as a particle and a wave) Thus, when Jesus dies physically he is still alive in the spirit. This is what makes the Ressurection so special: God wouldn't raise a liar up, so it confirms Jesus's dith
Then your presuppositions make this thread useless. If you've already determined in your mind/heart that the answer we'll give you is unacceptable, then why start it up in the first place.
I'll rephrase it so that it fits the homework analogy.
I had an assignment I could not accomplish, that being having a link to God himself. I couldn't accomplish it because I hadn't payed attention in class.(analogous to sin in this case). Now there was no way I could finish the assignment, just as there is no way I could work my way up or earn my way back to God's presence.(ok heres where the analogy gets a little exaggerated) Now since I could not finish the assignment/work my way up to God, the teacher than shows me how, just as God sent Jesus to give us the way.
Now this analogy doesn't portray the death part very well, but it was the best I could think of.
Jesus is not a Son as we think of a son. The title just portrays another aspect of God. If Jesus were God's son, then that would make him below God the Father, and this is not the case. All three facets of God are equal in powers; God the Father is simply first in order.
But if he is God then he is capable of raising himself from the dead. He physically died, but if he is God then he is able to rise up.
The only way atonement can take place is by blood. A perfect sacrifice is necessary. Now since no Human alone can do it, then Christ/God had to come down to us. Now Jesus is all human and yet can stlll be God at the same time.(think of it as light as a particle and a wave) Thus, when Jesus dies physically he is still alive in the spirit. This is what makes the Ressurection so special: God wouldn't raise a liar up, so it confirms Jesus's dith
Flores:
<i>"For God so loved the world that he gave his only son..." etc etc.
so they say that Jesus is god only son?? What kind of son? Biological? Spiritual? Did god really give up anything?</i>
You really need to do a little more research into Christian beliefs. This is basic stuff. Jesus is part of a trinity consisting of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. So, he is both separate from God the Father, yet part of God. There's a wealth of literature on the nature of this relationship.
<i>If jesus is the biological son of god in flesh, then Jesus is gone for good, for he perished when he died and god have indeed sacrificed him.</i>
Christians believe Jesus rose from the dead. Surely you know that?
<i>But they say that Jesus still lives forever, so what kind of trick sacrifice is that? Did god bluff? I don't wish to play poker with that god that claims to make a sacrifice and then hide the card in the sky safe somewhere? I'm sorry, but when I explained the situation to my four year old, she gave me that answer...honest.</i>
Your 4 year old can be forgiven, since she still has a lot to learn. You, on the other hand, really should find out about what you're so keen to criticise. It would make your arguments much more convincing.
<i>"For God so loved the world that he gave his only son..." etc etc.
so they say that Jesus is god only son?? What kind of son? Biological? Spiritual? Did god really give up anything?</i>
You really need to do a little more research into Christian beliefs. This is basic stuff. Jesus is part of a trinity consisting of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. So, he is both separate from God the Father, yet part of God. There's a wealth of literature on the nature of this relationship.
<i>If jesus is the biological son of god in flesh, then Jesus is gone for good, for he perished when he died and god have indeed sacrificed him.</i>
Christians believe Jesus rose from the dead. Surely you know that?
<i>But they say that Jesus still lives forever, so what kind of trick sacrifice is that? Did god bluff? I don't wish to play poker with that god that claims to make a sacrifice and then hide the card in the sky safe somewhere? I'm sorry, but when I explained the situation to my four year old, she gave me that answer...honest.</i>
Your 4 year old can be forgiven, since she still has a lot to learn. You, on the other hand, really should find out about what you're so keen to criticise. It would make your arguments much more convincing.
I did find this middle age document that answers some common questions. Ignore the use of "infidel". I haven't read it all yet, but it seems all together orthodox. I do not agree with the theology of angelic replacement; although Christ says that we will be "like" angels, the verse need not mean we will be angels.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/anselm-curdeus.html
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/anselm-curdeus.html
You are saying nothing at all James
I think I'm giving you more credit than you really deserve. James, please clarify your position quick on the issue at hand, because so far not good.
Who cares about the wealth of literature, give me your two cents about the relationship..Not the bible belt taught stuff, what you have processed, understood, and deemed fit for consumption by human beings.
You have indicated that christian belief is based on a god sacrifice made to humans in the form of giving us his only son. I'm asking again, if god indeed gave up his only son, then god must be hurting and his son must be lost for good....Is that what christians believe that Jesus is lost in a form of sacrifice just like a goat is gone when we kill it.
I'm not trying to be convincing here. I'm trying to understand the minds of mentally challenged individuals that live all around me so I'm better adapt to coexist with them. Perhaps even have fun conversing with them....I'm trying to acheive similar grounds with my fellow human beings so we can have some honest goodness talk
I think I'm giving you more credit than you really deserve. James, please clarify your position quick on the issue at hand, because so far not good.
Who cares about the wealth of literature, give me your two cents about the relationship..Not the bible belt taught stuff, what you have processed, understood, and deemed fit for consumption by human beings.
You have indicated that christian belief is based on a god sacrifice made to humans in the form of giving us his only son. I'm asking again, if god indeed gave up his only son, then god must be hurting and his son must be lost for good....Is that what christians believe that Jesus is lost in a form of sacrifice just like a goat is gone when we kill it.
I'm not trying to be convincing here. I'm trying to understand the minds of mentally challenged individuals that live all around me so I'm better adapt to coexist with them. Perhaps even have fun conversing with them....I'm trying to acheive similar grounds with my fellow human beings so we can have some honest goodness talk
Re: Re: Re: Re: Who said these words?
I meant, their answers so far are unreasonable and unacceptable. I hope they improve, but no promises.
Let me tell you where you are dead wrong. When you have an assignment, you could do one of two things:
1- study your ass of and trust in god, even if you think that you'll fail. Do christians trust in god?
2- Don't trust in god and assume that he'll fail you if you didn't achieve some unachievable thing and go behind god's back and open his lockers and steal the answer sheet.
Christians who made up the Christ savior analogy don't trust in god...They don't. They wish to control god and predict what god will do in advance. They're denying god from showing them mercy and justice.....
Made up bull shit.
Jesus is below god, I wish he can tell you that himself...
the first commandment as told by Jesus speaks of loving the one god, with all thy heart and powers....the first commandment didn't mention three...Only later did the bible experts decide to make three gods to reconcile translation errors and contradictions in the text.
I feel terribly sorry for you. I'm afraid that nothing I can say to you can cure your brain tumor. Your case is too advanced and prayers are worsening your condition
I meant, their answers so far are unreasonable and unacceptable. I hope they improve, but no promises.
Let me tell you where you are dead wrong. When you have an assignment, you could do one of two things:
1- study your ass of and trust in god, even if you think that you'll fail. Do christians trust in god?
2- Don't trust in god and assume that he'll fail you if you didn't achieve some unachievable thing and go behind god's back and open his lockers and steal the answer sheet.
Christians who made up the Christ savior analogy don't trust in god...They don't. They wish to control god and predict what god will do in advance. They're denying god from showing them mercy and justice.....
Made up bull shit.
Jesus is below god, I wish he can tell you that himself...
the first commandment as told by Jesus speaks of loving the one god, with all thy heart and powers....the first commandment didn't mention three...Only later did the bible experts decide to make three gods to reconcile translation errors and contradictions in the text.
I feel terribly sorry for you. I'm afraid that nothing I can say to you can cure your brain tumor. Your case is too advanced and prayers are worsening your condition