What's Worse? Christians, Help Me Please!

jayleew said:
Here's the difference between Joseph Smith and all the other prophets: Joseph actually claimed to be one, whereas no prophet, including Jesus claimed to be anything, all of them knew who they were and did not claim to be anything.

That is an important test for any would-be prophet. A true prophet of God knows his worth and gives no credit to himself, claiming any title, much less a "prophet" of God. After all, it is easier for me to say I am a prophet, than to be one, and I know i'm not.

So, any person on this earth who ever claims to be a prophet, you can be absolutely sure, that that person is not. The mold has been set by known prophets of the Bible, anyone who doesn't fit the mold is not a prophet.
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Most if not all of the Old Testament prophets declared to those they were addressing, "Thus saith the Lord: ". If they claim to speak for the Lord, what difference is there between that statement and actually saying, "I speak for the Lord" and "I am a prophet of God"? None whatsoever. Your false test for a prophet fails, as it is not biblical and can be shown to be false easily--just look up all the references to when a prophet says, "Thus saith the Lord..."
 
Marlin said:
Most if not all of the Old Testament prophets declared to those they were addressing, "Thus saith the Lord: ". If they claim to speak for the Lord, what difference is there between that statement and actually saying, "I speak for the Lord" and "I am a prophet of God"? None whatsoever. Your false test for a prophet fails, as it is not biblical and can be shown to be false easily--just look up all the references to when a prophet says, "Thus saith the Lord..."
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Thus saith the Lord, "I am the truth, the light, and the way."

Am I now a prophet of God? I speak the truth, but I am not a prophet.

There is a difference between relaying the truth with "Thus saith the Lord" and saying "I speak for God". If I speak for God, why does God have to speak? Instead, allow God to speak, and relay what God speaks and take no credit as Joseph Smith takes.

If I were to say, "I speak for the Lord" that would imply that I am prideful to believe that I am worthy of his prophecies, and that you are not. That statement puts myself on a pedastool, where I don't belong, therefore, I would be lying if I said, "I speak for the Lord" because no one can speak FOR God, we can only be messengers of truth. None on this Earth can presume to know God's plan and put words in God's mouth, unless he be a false prophet and take it upon his own intelligence and arrogance. That is why no prophet claimed anything of themselves, but only said, "Thus saith the Lord".

I speak for Jesus Christ and he is against marijuanna. Anyone object to that statement? I would on several grounds.

Do you understand the implications of the phrase "I speak for the Lord" and "I am a prophet" vs "Thus saith the Lord"?

It is a matter of pride that is covered in a lie.

Now, the prophets in the Bible were prophets because they spoke the truths of God and God was with them and the people could see it, not because they said they were prophets, because they never said that. Joseph claimed he was a prophet and took on an arrogance, just as if I were to say I am a prophet. Joseph, you, and I are no different in God's eyes, but that is not what Joseph implied when he claimed a title for his own. All prophets of God lay down their crowns, including Jesus Christ when he came to Earth. The life of a prophet is a life of humility.
 
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Saying "Thus saith the Lord" implies that the Lord has spoken to you and endorses your authority to speak for Him. Yes, false prophets can say "Thus saith the Lord" also, but that's not the point. The point is, are the two statements:

1. Thus saith the Lord;
and
2. I am a prophet of God.

one and the same? I believe that they are, and I think most honest people would agree with me, unless they have a religious agenda that forbids their logic from making that connection.
 
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A biblical example of a prophet trying to convince people that he was actually a prophet is in the story of Moses. The Israelites didn't believe him at first, but he insisted that the Lord wanted him to lead them out of Egypt. He definitely had to convince people of his prophethood.
 
Marlin said:
A biblical example of a prophet trying to convince people that he was actually a prophet is in the story of Moses. The Israelites didn't believe him at first, but he insisted that the Lord wanted him to lead them out of Egypt. He definitely had to convince people of his prophethood.
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He did no such thing, instead, he asked, "Why me, Lord?"
10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt. 11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt? 12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee;

When Moses performed the miracles, it is written that he did so so that the people would believe that he was sent by God, but he did not say, "I perform these things because God is with me." God performed miracles so that the people would believe that God was with Moses, but Moses did not claim anything. People followed because they were convinced that God was with Moses. How would he have been received if he had said, "I am a prophet of God, follow me into the wilderness"? We are known by the fruit we bear, not by who we say we are.

I am an idolater, so who am I? This is how God can take the least of men and make them the strongest, and vice versa. It is through their obedience and humility, not the titles they take, all prophets work BY God, not FOR God.

Moses had all sorts of complaints against himself (reasons he wasn't the right man), and God told him that Moses would speak BY God, because Moses said he couldn't speak FOR God. If Moses had answered, "Yeah, I'm the guy you have in mind, God." Do you think God would have chosen him?

Prophets are not self-made and therefore cannot make declarative vain statements, or they undo the divinity of God that is in them.
 
Marlin said:
, unless they have a religious agenda that forbids their logic from making that connection.
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you cant put religion and logic in the same sentence, they are mutually exclusive, religious logic or religious science are oxymorons.
 
Joseph Smith was a very humble, righteous man. He only proclaimed the Restoration of the gospel because God told him to do so. What, do you expect him to say, "I don't speak for the Lord, but He told me to restore His true gospel"? If he didn't say that he spoke for the Lord or that he had seen visions of God and angels, would anyone have had reason to believe him?

Joseph Smith said what God told him to say, and he did what God told him to do. It's that simple. He told the world he was a prophet because to not do so would have brought him under God's condemnation. The idea was to win converts to the truth of Christ, not to puff JS up in pride. If he had no prophetic claims, then perhaps no one would have listened to him.

Through it all, God spoke through Joseph Smith to the end of Joseph's life. He was a true prophet of God.
 
""The Book Of Mormon seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases to the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James's translation of the Scriptures; and the result is a mongrel -- half modern glibness and half ancient simplicity and gravity." -- Mark Twain"
 
"He (Isaac Hale) considered Joseph to be an arrogant, fraudulent, and lazy young man, totally unworthy to marry his daughter.

Ever since Joseph had founded the Mormon church, his status as a prophet had brought him the adoration of his followers, including many attractive women. Seducing Mormon women was easy for him, and was apparently irresistible to him.

In 1844 a major schism occurred among the Mormons of Nauvoo which resulted directly from Joseph's proposals of marriage to the wives of several leaders of the church."

http://www.lds-mormon.com/jsmith.shtml
 
Marlin,

Through it all, God spoke through Joseph Smith to the end of Joseph's life. He was a true prophet of God.
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Almost - research shows him to be an accomplished confidence trickster.
 
I know that he was a true prophet, and that the church he restored is the true Church of Jesus Christ. Say what you will about him, but to me he will always be a great prophet who gave me the precious gospel of Christ in its purity and fulness.
 
Marlin,

I know that he was a true prophet, and that the church he restored is the true Church of Jesus Christ. Say what you will about him, but to me he will always be a great prophet who gave me the precious gospel of Christ in its purity and fulness.
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You sound like you are trying to convince yourself. You must surely know of his shady and controversial history, right? Why can you not see that the whole episode of the vanishing golden tablets is such a wonderful and obvious con trick? Why are the followers of LDS so gullible?

Marlin I don't doubt your underlying sincerity and desire, but you are following a fraululent religion. Everyone else has little trouble seeing this. Surely you must have some doubts?
 
Yes, there are beliefs and there are facts. One can be argued while the other not.

The facts on Smith overwhelm anything one could possibly believe from him. His closest friends become his mortal enemies, once they got to really know him for what he was, a charlatan and a rogue.
 
All I have to say to you folks posting negative things about Joseph Smith is, with what judgment you mete out, it shall be measured back on you again. You are laying the foundation for your own Judgment when you slander that good man's name.
 
Marlin,

This isn't slander, it's common knowledge, and openly transparent for anyone who chooses to look objectively.
 
Cris said:
Marlin,

This isn't slander, it's common knowledge, and openly transparent for anyone who chooses to look objectively.
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It was common knowledge in Jesus' day that He was a glutton, a wine-bibber, and a Sabbath-breaker, a false prophet who cast out devils by the power of the devil. His friends deserted Him when He was arrested by the Sanhedrin; indeed, one of his closest disciples, Peter, even denied knowing Him to save his own life. What kind of monster must He have been, to have his best friends desert Him in His moment of trial?

Paul was a Pharisee who persecuted Christians before his conversion. Matthew was a tax collector, one of the despised. Moses killed an Egyptian, one of his own countrymen, to save an Israelite. David was a lustful, adulterous murderer. Solomon was a polygamist, as were many other Old Testament prophets and characters.

The list goes on. Gee, one might even conclude that these people were fallible humans! How terrible.
 
one might even conclude that these people were fallible humans!

One might even conclude, that like Joseph Smith, they WERE merely people.
 
(Q) said:
one might even conclude that these people were fallible humans!

One might even conclude, that like Joseph Smith, they WERE merely people.
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Of course they were merely people. God chooses fallible humans to do His work. By small means are great things brought about. God chooses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise.

Joseph Smith wasn't perfect. But he was a chosen prophet of God, and he has done more for the salvation of mankind than any man ever did, except for Jesus Himself.
 
LOL - or the more obvious - he was a rogue and you've been take for a ride. Which is significantly more credible than the supernatural gibberish you are spouting.
 
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