What's Worse? Christians, Help Me Please!

Cris, believe what you want, that's fine with me. Spiritual truth is unknowable to the natural man; indeed, he cannot understand it unless he submits himself to God. Here is a cite for you so you know I'm not just making that up:

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
Marlin said:
Cris, believe what you want, that's fine with me. Spiritual truth is unknowable to the natural man; indeed, he cannot understand it unless he submits himself to God. Here is a cite for you so you know I'm not just making that up:

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
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your without doubt, an idiot, when confronted by a statement such as this from Cris
Cris said:
" Marlin – if you expect to be taken seriously then please support your assertions with something more than claims that cannot be distinguished from fantasy."
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you use the very thing that cannot be distinguished from fantasy, to back up your assertion, WOW!.

these quotes can be verified, and we know the person existed.

Religions are conclusions for which the facts of nature supply no major premises.
-- Ambrose Bierce, Collected Works (1912)

Theology is a thing of unreason altogether, an edifice of assumption and dreams, a superstructure without a substructure.
-- Ambrose Bierce, Collected Works (1912)

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
Mikhail Bakunin

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"
Carl Sagan

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary beliefs"
Steve Nadis
 
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So marlin the only defense you can offer to defend the false prophesies of joseph smith is to claim bible prophesy as false.

You have decided to follow a man who you know has falsely prophesized. Therefore you condemn yourself. I will now deal with your false accusations against the bible. In fact your accusations against God whom you accuse of being a liar.

Lets just look at your first accusation and see who the accusation is actually against.

The Lord told David that the men of Keilah "will deliver thee up [to Saul]" (1 Samuel 23:12). This did not happen, however, because David fled from the city (verses 13-14).
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Now for a false prophesy to be identified a false prophet must be identified. We look at this scripture and we find no prophet at all. Here God talked to David directly so if this was a "prophesy" the only one you could be accusing of being a false prophet is God himself. Anyone with a unclouded mind can clearly see that God was not prophesizing anything here. This was a warning to David to get out of that city. It was God saying to David get out of here these men will give you up to Saul.

So to clarify the points against this false accusation.

1) This is not a prophesy but a warning from God directly to David.

2) No prophet was involved in this warning anyway. Therefore a false prophet cannot exist in this instance.

Marlin you have the audacity to proclaim that you believe that the bible is inspired by God then you defend a man joseph smith who clearly lied and say that those who expose this liar will be accursed. Then you turn around and call God himself a liar. Who will be accursed?

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
I'm not accusing God of lying. I'm merely showing that the Bible is not as infallible as certain fundamentalist sects would have us believe. The Bible was written by human beings, fallible but inspired. I have the greatest respect for them, and for the work they produced. But the Bible is not the fourth member of the Godhead. God speaks today through modern prophets--He is not limited to what was written 2000 years ago.

I believe I have given sufficient evidence that the Bible, like Joseph Smith, has prophecies in it that could be interpreted as "false" by the standards you are requiring Joseph Smith to follow. This is not to accuse the Bible of falseness, but rather to show you your error in judging Joseph Smith's prophecies as "false."

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
 
Marlin said:
I'm not accusing God of lying. I'm merely showing that the Bible is not as infallible as certain fundamentalist sects would have us believe. The Bible was written by human beings, fallible but inspired. I have the greatest respect for them, and for the work they produced. But the Bible is not the fourth member of the Godhead. God speaks today through modern prophets--He is not limited to what was written 2000 years ago.

I believe I have given sufficient evidence that the Bible, like Joseph Smith, has prophecies in it that could be interpreted as "false" by the standards you are requiring Joseph Smith to follow. This is not to accuse the Bible of falseness, but rather to show you your error in judging Joseph Smith's prophecies as "false."

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
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What would you consider a false prophecy, then?
 
What's worse? Christians arguing biblical text with other Christians or Christians ignoring atheist logic so they can argue with other Christians about biblical text?
 
Marlin

According to your link, any fairly good confidence man/woman could easily fool one into thinking they are a prophet, as long as they stay within the confines of scriptures. They don't even have to be correct with their prophecies.
 
(Q) said:
Marlin

According to your link, any fairly good confidence man/woman could easily fool one into thinking they are a prophet, as long as they stay within the confines of scriptures. They don't even have to be correct with their prophecies.
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That is why personal revelation is so important. God will reveal to us through the Holy Spirit whether a man is a true prophet or not, if we just ask Him about it in sincere prayer. We need never be deceived by any false prophet as long as we are striving to be righteous and prayerful.
 
Marlin said:
I'm not accusing God of lying. I'm merely showing that the Bible is not as infallible as certain fundamentalist sects would have us believe. The Bible was written by human beings, fallible but inspired. I have the greatest respect for them, and for the work they produced. But the Bible is not the fourth member of the Godhead. God speaks today through modern prophets--He is not limited to what was written 2000 years ago.

I believe I have given sufficient evidence that the Bible, like Joseph Smith, has prophecies in it that could be interpreted as "false" by the standards you are requiring Joseph Smith to follow. This is not to accuse the Bible of falseness, but rather to show you your error in judging Joseph Smith's prophecies as "false."

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
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That’s just it Marlin i have just knocked your first false allegation against the bible on the head. You where sure that the first example was a sure evidence of a false prophesies in the bible that’s why you posted it. The error is in you judging the bibles prophecies as false not in my showing the smiths prophesies where false.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Lets deal with another of your false allegations.

Isaiah told king Hezekiah, "Thus saith the Lord, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live." (2 Kings 20:1) But after the king pleaded with the Lord, the prophet delivered a new message, saying that fifteen years would be added to his life (verses 2-6).
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Time and time again though out the bible God has changed his pronouncements against people. When He does it is in response to true repentance. You could have brought up the example of Jonah and the city of Nineveh and God's response to Nineveh's repentance but still that would not substantiate your claim of false prophecy. God can relent from the wrath He warns people he will carry out. Not in the example you gave a retraction was immediately announced once the proper response was shown.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Adstar, I am NOT accusing the Bible or the biblical prophets of being false. I am saying that your methodology in attacking Joseph Smith's prophesies is wrong. If you would read the web page I posted a link to, perhaps you'd lay off Joseph Smith and not condemn him.

As for whether a prophet is truly a prophet of God, all you have to do is ask God to tell you through the Spirit if he is one, and God will reply in the affirmative with a "burning in the bosom" which will tell you in your heart the truth of the matter. I personally know without a doubt that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. God gave me this testimony and I will always have it in my heart. Not only do I have a testimony of Joseph Smith, but also of Gordon B. Hinckley, the current prophet. You cannot dislodge these testimonies from my heart; as God is my witness I am telling the truth.
 
so where do we draw the line between a lunatic and a prophet.
all prophets are false, is the more reasoned response.

Prophets hear the voice of God and talk with him. God reveals himself to prophets and they do his work. Lunatics hear voices in their heads. The difference is only good public relations. "God told me to kill my son" has been used as an excuse in courts a few times, but usually the defence lawyers use it as evidence of insanity. What is different about Abraham and Isaac? To me there is no difference. We have been told that Abraham did hear the voice of God, that his claim is legitimate. or Just good public relations.

taken from here http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=47713
 
Marlin said:
Adstar, I am NOT accusing the Bible or the biblical prophets of being false. I am saying that your methodology in attacking Joseph Smith's prophesies is wrong. If you would read the web page I posted a link to, perhaps you'd lay off Joseph Smith and not condemn him.

As for whether a prophet is truly a prophet of God, all you have to do is ask God to tell you through the Spirit if he is one, and God will reply in the affirmative with a "burning in the bosom" which will tell you in your heart the truth of the matter. I personally know without a doubt that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. God gave me this testimony and I will always have it in my heart. Not only do I have a testimony of Joseph Smith, but also of Gordon B. Hinckley, the current prophet. You cannot dislodge these testimonies from my heart; as God is my witness I am telling the truth.
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Then i feel great sorrow for you Marlin because we have been given a very important warning.

1 John 4
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
Adstar said:
Then i feel great sorrow for you Marlin because we have been given a very important warning.

1 John 4
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
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Adstar, if you've read the Bible (and I'm sure you have), you'll agree that every prophet who ever existed including Jesus has been accused of being a false prophet!
 
Marlin said:
Adstar, if you've read the Bible (and I'm sure you have), you'll agree that every prophet who ever existed including Jesus has been accused of being a false prophet!
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*************
M*W: ...and they all were false prophets, my friend.
 
Marlin said:
Adstar, if you've read the Bible (and I'm sure you have), you'll agree that every prophet who ever existed including Jesus has been accused of being a false prophet!
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Here's the difference between Joseph Smith and all the other prophets: Joseph actually claimed to be one, whereas no prophet, including Jesus claimed to be anything, all of them knew who they were and did not claim to be anything.

That is an important test for any would-be prophet. A true prophet of God knows his worth and gives no credit to himself, claiming any title, much less a "prophet" of God. After all, it is easier for me to say I am a prophet, than to be one, and I know i'm not.

So, any person on this earth who ever claims to be a prophet, you can be absolutely sure, that that person is not. The mold has been set by known prophets of the Bible, anyone who doesn't fit the mold is not a prophet.
 
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