What's Worse? Christians, Help Me Please!
- Thread starter PsychoticEpisode
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Marlin,
The bible is littered with similar propaganda; such tactics are also widely used in today's modern politics. Claim you are superior and belittle your opponents. The tactics are quite disreputable and one of the many things that convinced me to leave Christianity. Something that depends on threats and violence has no value. I note you have also attempted several times here to issue “spiritual” threats – you do yourself a disservice by doing so.
The bible is littered with similar propaganda; such tactics are also widely used in today's modern politics. Claim you are superior and belittle your opponents. The tactics are quite disreputable and one of the many things that convinced me to leave Christianity. Something that depends on threats and violence has no value. I note you have also attempted several times here to issue “spiritual” threats – you do yourself a disservice by doing so.
Hi everyone,
I'm not sure I'm in the right thread to talk about this, but I have a question, or maybe a few. It depends on how many questions arise as they have over the past 4 months. I'm not be sarcastic, I just feel I'm at a very important cross roads here and could use some help. I welcome ALL view points.
Ok. first, I need to tell you , I am a Christian and have been one for since the age of 15. In fact, my whole life has been surrounded by christians and church (not that this makes me a Christian, I just didn't have the benefit of that light blinding testimony you hear about from a lot of people) . I have been playing guitar for a praise team in our church for the past 10 years. Now , at the age of 40, I find myself asking very probing questions. I guess I feel the need to express how much influence I have had over the past years. I have doubted my salvation, but everything I've done to be saved, lines up with scripture.
The questions I have are not without a beginning. 5 years ago, My father began having problems. Health problems. As can be expected, I started praying (probably not as much as I should have), and others started praying for healing. At this point, in my fathers health, this was a minor condition. At this time, I only made some observations and wondered where my prayers were going.
To make this as short as possible, I'll jump to the last 4 months. His condition has worsended and as you would expect, we are still praying. I think most of you have already guessed or anitcipated what my issue is.
To be honest, I don't understand the lack of response from God. To be brutaly honest, I don't know that I have ever heard a response from him in all the time I've ever prayed to him.
Anyway, I feel that I'm at a very crucial time of searching. I need some answers. I welcome all replies, but keep these things in mind:
For believers: I have read through the scriptures and know what they say. My problem, is so far, I don't see them be lived up to or fullfilled.
For non-believers: I welcome your thoughts as well, I'm not ready to take the plunge into the other side yet. Not that your side is not worth hearing, I'm just letting you know where I stand.
In either case: I looking for some life experiences to answer this. And Christians? when it comes to "Faith" .. Faith is or was never blind... Faith is believing that God will do what He says he will do. ( So far I have not seen it). For the other side of the issue: Science does not prove everything....there are still a lot of un-answered questions there as well. However, In looking for life experience, I guess I'm looking for something factual to support the case for Faith, as I've described above.
Thanks for listening.
I'm not sure I'm in the right thread to talk about this, but I have a question, or maybe a few. It depends on how many questions arise as they have over the past 4 months. I'm not be sarcastic, I just feel I'm at a very important cross roads here and could use some help. I welcome ALL view points.
Ok. first, I need to tell you , I am a Christian and have been one for since the age of 15. In fact, my whole life has been surrounded by christians and church (not that this makes me a Christian, I just didn't have the benefit of that light blinding testimony you hear about from a lot of people) . I have been playing guitar for a praise team in our church for the past 10 years. Now , at the age of 40, I find myself asking very probing questions. I guess I feel the need to express how much influence I have had over the past years. I have doubted my salvation, but everything I've done to be saved, lines up with scripture.
The questions I have are not without a beginning. 5 years ago, My father began having problems. Health problems. As can be expected, I started praying (probably not as much as I should have), and others started praying for healing. At this point, in my fathers health, this was a minor condition. At this time, I only made some observations and wondered where my prayers were going.
To make this as short as possible, I'll jump to the last 4 months. His condition has worsended and as you would expect, we are still praying. I think most of you have already guessed or anitcipated what my issue is.
To be honest, I don't understand the lack of response from God. To be brutaly honest, I don't know that I have ever heard a response from him in all the time I've ever prayed to him.
Anyway, I feel that I'm at a very crucial time of searching. I need some answers. I welcome all replies, but keep these things in mind:
For believers: I have read through the scriptures and know what they say. My problem, is so far, I don't see them be lived up to or fullfilled.
For non-believers: I welcome your thoughts as well, I'm not ready to take the plunge into the other side yet. Not that your side is not worth hearing, I'm just letting you know where I stand.
In either case: I looking for some life experiences to answer this. And Christians? when it comes to "Faith" .. Faith is or was never blind... Faith is believing that God will do what He says he will do. ( So far I have not seen it). For the other side of the issue: Science does not prove everything....there are still a lot of un-answered questions there as well. However, In looking for life experience, I guess I'm looking for something factual to support the case for Faith, as I've described above.
Thanks for listening.
egb, have you tried asking someone who holds the Melchizedek Priesthood (in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) to give your father a blessing? The LDS missionaries hold that priesthood, or you could contact your local LDS bishop. That may help your father. Also, having his name added to the temple prayer rolls will help. Again, contact the LDS missionaries for more info and help.
egb said:
Hello egb
I am a believer in the Messiah Jesus.
What is your dad's current health? I will pray for him if he is still alive.
The question i must ask is this
Do you want your prayers heard or do you want your prayers answered in the way you want them answered?
Of cource you very much desire your dad to be restored to health but what if it is Gods will that it is your dads time to leave this world? This may sound hard. But we know God has numbered all our days and when it is time it is time. The best we can do is make the most of the time we have here now.
Do not doubt that your prayers are heard but always know that Gods will shall be done. It is for us to trust in God on matters like this.
egb you have brought up two points here. One i believe is directed at followers of the Messiah Jesus "I don't see them be lived up to" And the other directed at God "or fulfilled".
I would not like to speculate on what you mean. So please if you could expand on these points. What are the things that have not been fulfilled and what is not being lived up to? I have an idea of where you are going but i need to be sure before i can give a reply.
Blessings to you (((((egb))))) and may the peace of Jesus be with you.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
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I just didn't have the benefit of that light blinding testimony you hear about from a lot of people
Most likely because there was no blinding lights other than what those who testify have produced in their own imaginations. They want to believe.
Now , at the age of 40, I find myself asking very probing questions.
That is a very good thing.
To be honest, I don't understand the lack of response from God. To be brutaly honest, I don't know that I have ever heard a response from him in all the time I've ever prayed to him.
And, you will never receive a response.
Faith is believing that God will do what He says he will do. ( So far I have not seen it).
You won't see it, either.
Science does not prove everything....there are still a lot of un-answered questions there as well.
Given more time, science will answer those questions. Religion has stifled science for a great many years. There is a lot of catching up to do.
You can also ask yourself if your religion has ever answered any questions.
I wouldn't try to sway you one way or the other, but I would like to insist you keep asking questions. Eventually, you'll know what to do.
Most likely because there was no blinding lights other than what those who testify have produced in their own imaginations. They want to believe.
Now , at the age of 40, I find myself asking very probing questions.
That is a very good thing.
To be honest, I don't understand the lack of response from God. To be brutaly honest, I don't know that I have ever heard a response from him in all the time I've ever prayed to him.
And, you will never receive a response.
Faith is believing that God will do what He says he will do. ( So far I have not seen it).
You won't see it, either.
Science does not prove everything....there are still a lot of un-answered questions there as well.
Given more time, science will answer those questions. Religion has stifled science for a great many years. There is a lot of catching up to do.
You can also ask yourself if your religion has ever answered any questions.
I wouldn't try to sway you one way or the other, but I would like to insist you keep asking questions. Eventually, you'll know what to do.
(Q) said:
Because there is too much darn mystery in this universe to start talking about facts! By presenting your 'facts' you are 'persuading' just by stating that your truth is the 'real' truth when in fact I am aware that you cannot accept that you are a part of something you dont and cannot ever comprehend in this life. You can theorise, sure ... but state 'facts' about the non-existence of God, well that is just delusional.
peace
c20
C20,
While I would to some degree disagree with Q's position, it is worth asking the question - after many thousands of years since the god concept was devised how much longer must we wait before declaring it near enough a fact that imaginary gods never reply to prayer or do anything? Technically you are correct but then we shouldn't declare other imaginary characters like fairies non-existent either based on your criteria.
The largest piece of evidence for the non existence of gods is the very many thousands of years that eveidence for them has been absent. Isn't it about time we simply agree - they ain't there.
So to call Q delusional is far from justified.
While I would to some degree disagree with Q's position, it is worth asking the question - after many thousands of years since the god concept was devised how much longer must we wait before declaring it near enough a fact that imaginary gods never reply to prayer or do anything? Technically you are correct but then we shouldn't declare other imaginary characters like fairies non-existent either based on your criteria.
The largest piece of evidence for the non existence of gods is the very many thousands of years that eveidence for them has been absent. Isn't it about time we simply agree - they ain't there.
So to call Q delusional is far from justified.
Cris said:
Cris: The 'delusional' comment was a little 'tongue in cheek'. I actually enjoy the little niggles (Q) and I have on this subject. As for evidence, I personally witness the power of the Holy Spirit in my life every day. I have become a drastically changed person since I was baptised in the Spirit. I cannot give you proof, except perhaps the testimonies of those who knew me before.
I guess the problem I have with some atheistic arguments is that of 'Religion is bad, it is screwing the world, let us discount this 'spiritual' nonsense and get on with the really important job of fixing the planet.', when in actual fact, the 'spiritual nonsense' you speak of was the very thing that set me free and gave me fullness of life in a way I had not experienced it.
There are christians on here who would be able to empathise very strongly with my words. For us, I am afraid the Holy Spirit is not delusion but rather it is life to us. It helps us become kinder, less self centred, more patient people. Sure we are imperfect and none of us is more special than any other, Christian or not, but our faith is not harmful or malignant, it is about personal renewal.
I feel very strongly about the way Christianity is often falsly misrepresented by the world of politics, because the 'spiritual' aspect of it is adulterated and it is therefore presented to the world in a false light. Religious wackos don't help either. For me God is love. A tough love sometimes but always a patient love. The Holy Spirit reveals things to me about the nature of love, things that I try and bring into my daily life and into the lives of those around me.
I am trying to follow the only two commandments that make any sense to me i.e. Love God and then like it Love Thy Neighbour. One thing the Spirit has taught me is that Love does not seek its own way. Now have a look at those who call themselves Christians and ask yourself whether these people are 'seeking their own way'. If they are you may know that this is not the sort of mindset that knowing the Holy Spirit brings about. It is a false christianity that seeks to bind people to rules and such that suit a political agenda. Their minds are not on God but on themselves and their own careers.
Jesus taught us to focus on the things of God so that we could personally be changed by the relationship, because it is good for us to know the source of all life, to know from whence we derive our being and to know that our very beings are loved by that which created them. What isn't loved, is our self-seeking, greedy behaviour and our love of ourselves. It is this part of human nature that the Holy Spirit helps me to overcome so that I am not afraid to come into God's presence through prayer.
I am sorry if you despise my words as yet another device to perpetuate folly in a world that you see as being overrun with 'religious' folly, however the power of God has made itself known in my life and my life is much more positive for it. I wish everyone could share the faith that I have come to know for it isn't based in the religion of the world, but rather a humble acceptance that I have a maker who wants the best for me their child. When I act, I am aware that I represent my father in heaven. Often I don't do this very well, but the aspiration is healthy enough and the Holy Spirit in loving kindness picks me up when I fall in the knowledge that my heart is in the right place and all I (like anyone else) require is patience. As long as I recognise patience when I see it, I take one step nearer to understanding the perfection that God is.
peace
c20
C20,
No you don’t. You have simply created a satisfying emotional state for yourself.
Same approach applies. That it feels good is no indication of an external influence.
Curiously enough I care little for the planet, simply my own survival, just like you. While you believe you will achieve eternal life through your beliefs I feel that such widespread fantasies serious deflect human effort from solving the real problems of involuntary death. I also have a full life and feel satisfied but have no need to resort to religious fantasy to achieve that.
No not quite. You only believe it is not delusion but you cannot show or know your belief is any different from emotional fantasy.
Many achieve the same without resort to Christian ideas – meditation helps a lot, or Buddhist perspectives, and Hindu perspectives are among the most peaceful in the world, etc., or simply those who hold regular rational world views.
Malignant? Perhaps not. Harmful? Yes it is since it deflects effort away from reality.
You do yourself an injustice. What you have discovered comes from within yourself.
Despise? Not really, frustrated perhaps that someone can fool themselves in such a way and I am largely powerless to help.
Cris said:
I am not fooling myself though but again you will say I am lying. That's all atheists do, is call believers liars, except they dress the word 'liar' up using such terms as 'delusional' or 'fooling one's self' so that they do not appear to be too agressive lest their point be lost.
You have stated that my belief is harmful. Since you do not know me, how can you claim that my belief is harmful? How am I harming myself or others? Be precise here, back up your claims with facts. I predict you will not be able to for the very reason that you do not know me. Again if you were to ask people around me whether my 'born again' status has been harmful to me as an individual, they would say 'uh no, he is a changed person for the better'.
Now you may say 'Well you are doing yourself a disservice, because you changed for the better, it was your own effort and own strength that made you a more rounded individual.', to which my reply is 'I had no will or motivation to change in and of myself.'. I quite litereally have become a new creation. The old 'me' died by a process I had no more control over than I will my own physical death.
Please don't think you need to help me in the way that you mean 'help'. It is a condescending thing to say, to say the least. Be my friend by all means, but don't try and change me according to how you would prefer I see myself.
peace
c20
I just have one question here. Do you place an emphasis on doing "to be saved", or on believing and acting according your faith? If our salvation depends on us, we have reason to doubt, but if it depends on Jesus, we need not fear our doubts. They play the role of conscience, telling us when we are putting too much faith in ourselves or are straying from our place of security, which is Christ himself.egb said:
Prayer is not about the amount of words you use (Matt. 6:7), how convincing you sound to yourself, or your merits and spiritual qualifications, but are an expression of your complete dependence on God. You recognized how dependent you are on God for your father's health, and expressed this in prayer. There is no doubt that God hears such a prayer.
At times like this, it helps to keep Jesus' own prayer in mind: "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."
Can you remember what God answered Jesus? Nothing. So Jesus prayed again: "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done." And he prayed this a third time (Matt. 26:44). And almost immediately afterwards, he was arrested and his trials began.
Now, you can either say God had forsaken Jesus (like Jesus himself experienced), or you can look at his "life experience": God rewarded Jesus' faith not just by saving him from death, but by saving every person Jesus prayed for (John 17:20). Were Jesus' prayers answered, or not?
You can see them best in your own life and your own faith. You will only be convinced by your own response to scriptures, which was given to you to strengthen your faith during times like these, to tell you why you may hope and pray, and to comfort you when you are going through the valley of the shadow of death. And you may find the answer for this (as with most emotional experiences) does not lie intellectual satisfaction (Jesus never tried to give satisfying answers to people's "why?") but much deeper: at the satisfaction of your soul. We often don't think clearly and objectively during times of emotional distress, and we let fear, anger or despair make decisions for us.
I would suggest you spend time with your father, as much as you can, and listen closely to what he has to say. Does he want explanations and temporary solutions, or your love and your presence? You might have your questions answered in ways you didn't expect.
Remember that our faith is that we believe God did do what He said he would: He saved us from sin and despair, taking away their power over our thoughts and deeds. God gave us hope, and that hope is Jesus. Hold fast to him and you won't be disappointed. It is easy to be tempted away from God's answers by disaster - especially disaster that we feel God could have (and should have) averted. But Jesus did not promise us control over our fates, or that of others - even through prayer. He promised that death would not threaten us anymore, and that we could trust Him with our lives: "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid" (John 14:27; see also Philippians 4:6-9).
Faith is not blind, but it can often be blinded. That happens when there is unconfessed sin or lack of forgiveness in our life, when we don't like what God is doing (or not doing), or when worries obscure or choke it. The answer is to ask for and depend on God's grace, which allows us to put our faith in practice despite suffering and hardship. God has given us our reason, abilities and other resources (like prayer or other people) to do this with, and God will accompany the righteous exercise of his will (Amos 5:14).
The love you show to your father is in fact a constant reminder of God's will and presence. He gave the commandment to honour our parents, which is what you are doing. That's how you know that it does matter that you love your father and want to see him getting better, not worse. That is how faith becomes meaningful and visible here on earth; how you can be your father's experience of God's love. You'll still love him, whether he gets better or worse.
Grace be with you.
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In 1826, Joseph Smith was arrested on the charge of fraud for his use of a seeing stone to search for buried treasure (in the official court document he is called "The Glass Looker"). Another attempt at fraud was documented by Professor Charles Anthon in 1834. He was unfaithful to his wife, and concealed his marriage to a 14-year old girl from her. Are these the acts of a righteous man? As for being humble... Like the Pope when Luther urged for reformation, Joseph Smith refused to acknowledge criticism against church abuses. The Nauvoo Expositor (which Smith consequently had burnt down) reported:Marlin said:
"...our petitions were treated with contempt; and in many cases the petitioner spurned from their presence and particularly by Joseph, who would state that if he had sinned, and was guilty of the charges we would charge him with, he would not make acknowledgment, but would rather be damned; for it would detract from his dignity, and would consequently ruin and prove the overthrow of the Church."
It's an interesting read. PS. I'm not saying anything here about the LDS church or its claims, I'm just disputing your statement above. All of my information can easily be found in the LDS church's own libraries. (The book about Emma Hale Smith's struggle with her husband's "polygamous" practices, Mormon Enigma, won the 1985 Mormon History Association's Best Book Award).
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C20,
To lie is to intentionally deceive. I don’t believe you are lying; you have merely convinced yourself emotionally that your beliefs are true. Rationally you have no basis.
I aim to be precise. Try not to consider all atheists as having the same outlook.
In this respect I have no interest in you as an individual and have no need to know you. The harm to humanity comes from the large body of people who have chosen to believe they can live forever by believing religious fantasies. This diverts attention away from scientific studies that will help solve real problems. Your beliefs might make you feel happy in the short term, much like the placebo effect, but in the end you will die and cease to exist. My perspective is longer term and affects humanity as a whole – in this respect religions are detrimental.
It’s called an epiphany; many people experience such realizations or a frame of mind and change accordingly. It is entirely internal. Much like a scientist will think about a difficult problem for years and will eventually picture the solution in his mind one morning. There is no indication of external influences. The idea that there is a holy spirit is simply the particular dogma of your religion. Of the thousands of other religions other dogma will come into play. You have nothing special that cannot be explained by a rudimentary understanding of psychology.
I have little interest in trying to change you as an individual, you misunderstood me. The concern I have is the long term damage your beliefs and those like you are having on humanity and its long term progress which directly affects my own personal survival possibilities. My best hope is to dramatically discredit institutionalized religions like yours or assist with educational activities that will help prevent others like you being indoctrinated into faith based irrationalities.
Cris said:
No. I havn't convinced myself. I am of sound mind and body and I am telling you that I recieved the Holy Spirit and have been changed.
Ok. I will try.
So you aim to fix the macro by ignoring the micro? Don't you see a flaw in this approach?
This is your bias. What you call fantasy, I call reality. You have a choice, you can either accept my reality as I tell it or you can call me delusional/liar etc.
Sorry about that but I think you will find I am more than happy for the large majority of scientific study to go ahead. There are some things that worry me like nano technology for example. However it isn't the R&D that bothers me but rather the political motives of those funding such research.
Cease to exist in this life yes. Worm food. And actually my beliefs do not make me 'happy' in the sense you mean it, they make me very sad sometimes because I can see something that others miss, something that I too missed for too long but I am not hear to preach.
You are claiming a position of superiority yet words are damn cheap. What are you doing to benefit me? I am part of humanity and yet you segregate me and call me delusional. How am I to fit into your plans for humanity? Give up my faith? Should anyone have to give up their faith to appease another?
I prayed. I was knocked off my feet. I felt I was being cleansed by a river of blood. I sensed a presence that contained all the answers to life. The Holy Spirit was poured out on me and has not left me.
You do what you must. I will stand here and speak my truth just the same.
peace
c20
C20,
Umm – that sounds very much like you have indeed convinced yourself that your religious dogma is true. Continually repeating the same baseless assertion doesn’t make it any less irrational.
Plugging a hole in a dam can save millions from drowning – where is the micro/macro in that? Revealing the underlying irrationality of religion can affect billions. I don’t see your point here. I was merely saying I am not trying to convert you in particular.
Calling something baseless a reality doesn’t make it real, no matter how many times you make the assertion.
Fair enough – you are clearly deluded and you cannot demonstrate otherwise.
That’s not good enough. All the time you believe a god is the ultimate answer there will be insufficient motivation or incentive to solve real problems.
There is no demonstrated other life.
Superiority? No just simple factual observations.
Then you will simply die and permanently cease to exist in your delusion.
Sounds like you did that in a group. But whatever, a wonderful example of indoctrination.
Again - repeatedly asserting baseless beliefs doesn’t make them true.
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