What It Means To Be A Christian

[TruthSeeker]

Raithere,

Matthew 5:17-19

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. "
He fulfilled the Law in the cross. The Law said that we were sinenrs and that He would come to pay for our sins. He already did it. The Law is fulfilled. That's the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament. In the four gospels, it is still Old Testament since He wasn't dead yet. The New Testament begins just after His ressurection.

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. "
Yes, because the Law never fails.

"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
The difference between the "old" commandment and the "new commandment is that we do the "new" because we Love Him, while with the "old" it was an obligation.

Making it easier for you to understand... there is only one commandment: "Love one another". In the Old Testament, you HAD to do it in order to go to Heaven, because you were under the Law. So in the Old Testament, it was really a commandment. In the New Testament, you don't HAVE to do in order to go to Heaven. HOWEVER, you do it anyways just because it pleases you to do so, and it is also easier since you are not under the Law anymore and you have no pressure anymore. So now it is not really a "commandment" anymore, nto something you HAVE to do, so it is not really a rule anymore. But if you want to have a nice life, better follow this commandment.

Luke 16:16 - 18

"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail."
He is talking about the Old Testament and the New one. When He said that "the Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. When John was born, He bring the baptism of water, which is the baptism where you accept the plans God has for you in your life. And the plans God has for all of us is for us to be saved. The rest is just details, since our livers is like a blink of an eye compared to an eternity.

Then He continues "since that time, the golpel of the kingdom of God has been preached". So here, He is telling us what is going on NOW. He told that the Law was prached before, and now since the Law is fulfilled by Him in our behalf, we are free from the Law.

And then "and everyone is forcing his way into it." Certainly, because everyone wants salvation, so everyone seek to be saved and be a part of God's Kingdom.

"But it is easier tfor heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail."
Again, He affirms that the Law never fails and those that are under it will perish. But the Kingdom of God, which He preaches, free us from the Law of sin and death.

Romans 2:12-16

"For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;"
Romans is already New Testament. This passage tells us that those who are under the Law and go against it will perish. Those who are "without" the Law are those who don't accept the Law, don't follow it. But all those who accepted the gift of God shall not perish, but have eternal life in Christ Jesus.

"for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified."
Those who hear the Law and don't follow it are not just before God, but those who hear it and act on it will be justified. All Christians are already justified by faith. It is also written:

Romans 5:1-2
"1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. "

To go deep in the meaning of the scriptures you need to read lots of it and know everything that is written.

"For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, "
Those are the Christians
It is also written:

Hebrews 8:10
"10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. "

That's what happens when you become a Christian. You follow the Law naturally, because He write the Law in your heart; so that you are not justified by the works of the Law, but by faith in Chrit Jesus, the hope of righteousness.

 

[TruthSeeker]

SnakeLord,

Well like i said is the old testament talking about a different god? Is it just fake writing or what?

The Old Testament is just a preparation for the New. It was somthing that God created until the days that would come when He would live in His people again.

 

[TruthSeeker]

SVRP,

What should the father do about his sons?

Are you a Christian...?

This is not exactly the situation you described, but it talks about the importance of repenting... you made me remember this...:

Luke 15:11-32
"11 And He said, "A man had two sons.
12 "The younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me.' So he divided his wealth between them.
13 "And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey into a distant country, and there he squandered his estate with loose living.
14 "Now when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country, and he began to be impoverished.
15 "So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 "And he would have gladly filled his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him.
17 "But when he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger!
18 'I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight;
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men."'
20 "So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
21 "And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
22 "But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet;
23 and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.
25 "Now his older son was in the field, and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing.
26 "And he summoned one of the servants and began inquiring what these things could be.
27 "And he said to him, 'Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has received him back safe and sound.'
28 "But he became angry and was not willing to go in; and his father came out and began pleading with him.
29 "But he answered and said to his father, 'Look! For so many years I have been serving you and I have never neglected a command of yours; and yet you have never given me a young goat, so that I might celebrate with my friends;
30 but when this son of yours came, who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him.'
31 "And he said to him, 'Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours.
32 'But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.'"

Also in the same chapter:
Luke 15:4-7
"4 "What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
5 "When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 "And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'
7 "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. "

 

[TruthSeeker]

SnakeLord,

For the third ignored time now..... I fail to see how something written by YOUR God has nothing to do with you.

Just because He is my God, that doesn't mean He will write things just for me... He wrote that for the Jews, and for you and other unbelievers.

I also wonder why you would consider an athiest as 'worse than a murderer'. You stated: If he kills souls........ Who's souls are you referring to? You know the real undeniable truth so why would you be scared souls would be killed. He therefore wouldn't be killing the souls of religious folk who know the truth- he would only be killing the souls of other athiests who are blind to the truth and do exactly the same as he does.

Exactly. He kills the souls of other atheist, and ignorant people, people that don't know the Word of God. If someone come and tell someone else that you are a bad person and a liar, wouldn't that person, when talking to you, have already a mind set to believe that you were lying? In the same way, atheists can do that with others. That's how atheists can "kill souls".

So.... how can an athiest be 'worse than a murderer'? It is becoming all the more apparent you are 'confused'.

I'm not confused. What is worse, for someone to kill a Christian and send him to Heaven, or for someone to convince someone that God is not true and send that person to live for the rest of eternity in hell? Who really murdered: the murdere or the atheist?

You think you can answer your confusion by putting everything you have into one singular belief. The problems arise when you can't answer questions relating to that. I can sense that deep inside the subconcious is aware that you don't really believe that which your concious mind is hanging onto for dear life. It is that inner thought/outer thought conflict that is causing your confusions in life. Think i'm wrong? Prove it.

I don't think you are wrong... until some point. Subconsciously I still don't believe. It is only my conscious that do believe. If I were also believing subconsciously I would just go to Africa and feed all people there. But my faith didn't get to the point where my subconscious is also affected by it.

 

[Horseman42]

TruthSeeker

And the real tranlation for that would be:
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall die [or "shall be dead]."
Because "the wages of sin is death". It is something that occurs naturally. The Law of God was desgined tpo mantain people alive. That's why it is written so many times "shal die" or "shalle be put to death", or whatever. The point is that death is a natural result of sin, not something that should be actually done.

Acctually my Bible, the one I've studied (the King James) states exactly "shall be put to death". Many people are homosexuals and not dying, and others are commiting even "worse acts" like rape, murdering, and even genocide and they are still alive. Unless perhaps your talking about the fact we may all die one day your example is invalid.

Christianism is about New Testament and NOT Old Testament:
So what is written in the Old Testament has nothing to do with us.

So just what sections of the Bible are ok? Are the 10 commandments ok? Sometimes I don't understand why Christians can selectively only extract what they want from the Bible and ignore the rest.

Depends what hell is and who make the choice...

Again I have to state I do not believe in HELL. That is a hell with little devils running around, with fire and shit everywhere. A place where the soul goes for being bad in life or for whatever reason, where it spends the rest of eternity in pain and suffering. An all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful being such as God wouldn't set things up like this as it entirely makes no sense. In your examples BOTH Andy and Joe would go to heaven as there's no where else for them to go.

Horseman42

 

[SnakeLord]

The Old Testament is just a preparation for the New. It was somthing that God created until the days that would come when He would live in His people again.

Well that's what you said first off... And to me that would signify utmost importance. Preparation is just as important as anything that follows but you seem to think otherwise: "It's nothing to do with us!"

If you can hold the word of God to be true and of such importance how can any word of god be less than any other?

Then you go on to say:

Just because He is my God, that doesn't mean He will write things just for me... He wrote that for the Jews, and for you and other unbelievers

So i see... Those particular words of God are irrelevant 'cause they were just for the dumbass jews and dumbass non believers?

It has been accurately shown that most of that material is translation upon translation stemming from Sumerian texts. If you say it was written by God you are aware you're talking about some other God? In fact- Gods? As such the 'preparation' for your faith was given by a bunch of people that didn't even believe anything you do. Can we honestly be so self righteous and ignorant to just say: "They're wrong, i'm right"?

By the same token can you just deny anyone? The Jews, the non-believers, etc? Of course you can't.

Us 'Non-believers' are a loving and kind group of people. We ask questions- we seek truth. We are well aware of what love, compassion and all the other worldy virtues are.

You on the other hand dismiss everyone else as wrong- claim nobody but you has love, knows what love - are forgiven above us etc etc etc. It is that very self righteous, highly naive and ignorant attitude which annoys people. You happily devalue the human ability, the human 'being' above that which a book states as real. You pick and choose whatever you like in order to attempt meager satisfaction of your beliefs and ignore or deny anyone with a serious question. If you do reply to any question you don't explain anything in a manner anyone would appreciate. You should realise us pathetic non believers do not have the capacity to understand the bible so why continually quote it and avoid answering a question in 'normal' manner? To us, your little quotes answer nothing.

I've read the bible many times and can say i see it in a opposite light to you. The overwhelming majority of it is so contradictory to deny any credibility it might otherwise have had. The rest of it is pure violence, hatred, belittling on the side of your God. He has happily created chaos, anarchy, destruction, despair all of which you cannot answer.

I left this on another post but it was ignored completely. I wonder why that is.....

Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God..."

"Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children..... Defile the temple and fill the courts with slain. Go!...."

What else...

God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the apple or they would instantly die. The serpent said they wouldn't.... The serpent was right. God was a liar.

"The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain..." (God has a heart? Doesn't that possibly suggest mortality?) "...I will wipe makind, whom i have created, from the face of the earth.."

"Then the Lord rained down burning sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah.... but Lots wife looked back and she became a pillar of salt"

The ten plagues.... (you know what he did there)

Feast of Tabernacles .... (why does god need cows, sheep and virgin women as offerings?)

"The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in the book of the Law until you are destroyed... Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you.."

"The Lord will never be willing to forgive him; his wrath and zeal will burn agains that man. All the curses written in this book will fall upon him, and the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven. The Lord will single him out from all the tribes of Israel for disaster..."

Does this not show true evil? Where's this 'love', 'compassion' etc that you state? Of course you, the church, the religious folk tend to ignore stuff like this. He even went so far as to say it 'pleases' him to ruin and destroy. It also pleases me to kill people- does that make me bad? After all i am made in the image of god- i only have fun doing what he has fun doing.

Exactly. He kills the souls of other atheist, and ignorant people, people that don't know the Word of God. If someone come and tell someone else that you are a bad person and a liar, wouldn't that person, when talking to you, have already a mind set to believe that you were lying? In the same way, atheists can do that with others. That's how atheists can "kill souls".

How does anyones soul get killed? People have free will and can do as they please. Unlike certain religions non believers do not brainwash people. Unlike all religions non believers do not target people when they're at their most emotionally fragile. Athiests dont kill anything. We question, we debate, and we seek knowledge. You just sit there and condemn us- but that's ok cause jesus will forgive you right? You don't even realise the inherent evil that comes with religious attitude. Self righteousness, ill-mannered neglecting of anyone who doesn't believe exactly as you do. Hell i've even seen all the eternal bickering you lot get upto. There's another thread where some religious christian says most are false christians but he's a 'real' christian etc. What a lot of old nonsense. You cause more bad feeling and generate more hatred than anyone else- then condemn others for that.

You go so far as to claim a murderer is better than an athiest. It is that very attitude that devalues the human existence and shows how shallow a life you must lead. I feel sorry for you.

I'm not confused. What is worse, for someone to kill a Christian and send him to Heaven, or for someone to convince someone that God is not true and send that person to live for the rest of eternity in hell? Who really murdered: the murdere or the atheist

Here i prove what i said above... What is worse? You make it sound like human life has no value! What a fucking rip off. This is what i mean by devaluing human existence. What about the victims mother/children? Tell ya what... By your own rationing i might aswell go kill all christians now- doesn't sound like its too bad a thing to do in your eyes. Of course that's harmless. I kill a million christians and it's all fine- i turn athiest and im evil. Boy, you really need to wake up.

I don't think you are wrong... until some point. Subconsciously I still don't believe. It is only my conscious that do believe. If I were also believing subconsciously I would just go to Africa and feed all people there. But my faith didn't get to the point where my subconscious is also affected by it.

Give that subconcious a chance to be heard instead of locking it away because you're scared to think otherwise. I'm sure even God with all his acts of evil can forgive you for searching that which is hidden within yourself.

 

[willson13]

STOOOOOOOP!

The argument of religion is age old. Plain and simple: no one is right, and no one is wrong. Especially Christianity. You can't prove that God really exists, and you can't disprove His existence. I'm really tired of people trying to prove other people wrong. EVERYONE IS RIGHT IN THEIR OWN SENSE! There is absolutley no reason to for one Christian to claim other non-Christians wrong. S/he should keep his religion to himself, or express it among other Christians so as not to upset anyone. There cannont be a resolution to this argument, so there should be no reason for this argument to continue. Man created religion, and Man's creation is destroying him. So please, PLEASE discontinue the argument. If you have any insight/criticism, please share. I look forward to whatever anybody has to say.

 

[SnakeLord]

Willson: Ever wondered whether a forum allowing people to debate religion is the place for you to be then?

Perhaps you should stick to gaming forums/mp3 forums or whatever.

The purpose of this forum is not to be right it's to debate issues, To gain knowledge. I've learnt some things here, as im sure others have so why would you consider it pointless?

Before asking others to discontinue debate because you can't cope with it- consider the alternative of your departure from this forum. Problem solved.

 

[willson13]

I DON'T consider it pointless. I realize that people are opinionated, as am I. I'm not bieng critical, because I strongly disagree in trying to disprove or approve God, or any other thing like that. You imply that I'm anti-debating, which I'm not. If you would like my opinion, here it is: I think God exists. And I don't hate people who don't believe in Him. I don't think they'll go to Hell, mostly because they don't beleive in a Hell to go to. I'm very interested in learning about what the "other side" has to say, in terms of why they believe there is no God.

 

[Horseman42]

Willson13,

I think God exists. And I don't hate people who don't believe in Him. I don't think they'll go to Hell, mostly because they don't beleive in a Hell to go to. I'm very interested in learning about what the "other side" has to say, in terms of why they believe there is no God.

I'm with you man. I believe the same as well! However I know I don't have all the answers, and I'm here to learn whatever I can. You really have to consider if this is the right forum for you. People like Snakelord and Truthseeker make this forum a very active forum for debate, and I gladly welcome reading their replies.


Horseman42

 

[TruthSeeker]

Horseman42,

Acctually my Bible, the one I've studied (the King James) states exactly "shall be put to death". Many people are homosexuals and not dying, and others are commiting even "worse acts" like rape, murdering, and even genocide and they are still alive. Unless perhaps your talking about the fact we may all die one day your example is invalid.

We all sin, therefore we all die. Death is the natural result of sin.

So just what sections of the Bible are ok? Are the 10 commandments ok? Sometimes I don't understand why Christians can selectively only extract what they want from the Bible and ignore the rest.

It is ALL ok. However, what is really for Christians is simply the New Testament stuff. The 10 commandments is basically "Love one another". That's all. You don't really need to rely on 10 commandments when you only really need 1.

Again I have to state I do not believe in HELL. That is a hell with little devils running around, with fire and shit everywhere. A place where the soul goes for being bad in life or for whatever reason, where it spends the rest of eternity in pain and suffering. An all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful being such as God wouldn't set things up like this as it entirely makes no sense. In your examples BOTH Andy and Joe would go to heaven as there's no where else for them to go.

Andy can't go to Heaven. Andy said to God: God, I don't believe you exist. I don't want to be in your presence. It was Andy's choice. Besides, again, it depends what is hell. If it is eternal suffering in fire or just a place where God doesn't exist (like an atheist's mind...:bugeye: ).

 

[SnakeLord]

Any chance of getting a response to my post Truthseeker?

(Unfortunately you seem to be the only religious type readily attempting to answer questions and offer knowledge. I don't know what happened to your brethren like Visitor, Jenyar and so on but they seem to have left you all alone to cope by yourself. As such i apologise if i seem to have put everything upon your shoulders- it is not my intention but the vansihing act of your counterparts leaves no choice.)

 

[TruthSeeker]

SnakeLord,

Any chance of getting a response to my post Truthseeker?

I don't waste my whole day in front of the computer...:bugeye:
Me wonders if you do...

(Unfortunately you seem to be the only religious type readily attempting to answer questions and offer knowledge. I don't know what happened to your brethren like Visitor, Jenyar and so on but they seem to have left you all alone to cope by yourself. As such i apologise if i seem to have put everything upon your shoulders- it is not my intention but the vansihing act of your counterparts leaves no choice.)

I understand that...
You are forgiven

 

[TruthSeeker]

SnakeLord,

Well that's what you said first off... And to me that would signify utmost importance. Preparation is just as important as anything that follows but you seem to think otherwise: "It's nothing to do with us!"

It is just that its importance is diminished. The Law still have Its use. However, most people (like Catholics) use It to condemn others. Well... we are not under the Law anymore, so I stress that it is diminished. Here is the comparison between the Old and New:

Luke 5:36-39
"36 And He was also telling them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old.
37 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.
38 "But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.
39 "And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good enough.'"

This one also talks about that, and more clearly:

Hebrews 10:1
"1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near."

So i see... Those particular words of God are irrelevant 'cause they were just for the dumbass jews and dumbass non believers?

It has some importance, but nopt as much as people seem to think. The Law is already written upon our hearts, and we don't NEED to follow it in order to go to Heaven (we follow it naturally anyways...). So His Words aren't irrelevant, they are just being specially adressed to Jews and non-believers.

It has been accurately shown that most of that material is translation upon translation stemming from Sumerian texts. If you say it was written by God you are aware you're talking about some other God? In fact- Gods? As such the 'preparation' for your faith was given by a bunch of people that didn't even believe anything you do. Can we honestly be so self righteous and ignorant to just say: "They're wrong, i'm right"?

Many Jews didn't accept the revelation of Christ. However, there are many cases of Jews that realized the importance and truth of the New covenant. Take for example Paul. He used to kill Christians. Then, one day as he was going to Damascus, he saw a light from Heaven that blinded him, and then Jesus spoke with him and revealed that He IS Christ. Paul though that He wasn't, he was just trying to work for God. By ignorance, he worked against God. After the revelation, he became an apostle and without him the New Testament would have many less books...:bugeye:

By the same token can you just deny anyone? The Jews, the non-believers, etc? Of course you can't.

Deny? In which sense?

Us 'Non-believers' are a loving and kind group of people. We ask questions- we seek truth. We are well aware of what love, compassion and all the other worldy virtues are.

It usually doesn't seem so...

You on the other hand dismiss everyone else as wrong- claim nobody but you has love, knows what love - are forgiven above us etc etc etc. It is that very self righteous, highly naive and ignorant attitude which annoys people. You happily devalue the human ability, the human 'being' above that which a book states as real. You pick and choose whatever you like in order to attempt meager satisfaction of your beliefs and ignore or deny anyone with a serious question. If you do reply to any question you don't explain anything in a manner anyone would appreciate. You should realise us pathetic non believers do not have the capacity to understand the bible so why continually quote it and avoid answering a question in 'normal' manner? To us, your little quotes answer nothing.

I usually quote and explain a lot. Wheter you have the capacity to understand it or not, I guess that's your own personal problem, and I can't do much about it.

I've read the bible many times and can say i see it in a opposite light to you. The overwhelming majority of it is so contradictory to deny any credibility it might otherwise have had. The rest of it is pure violence, hatred, belittling on the side of your God. He has happily created chaos, anarchy, destruction, despair all of which you cannot answer.

I guess you have read a different Bible than I did, then...

I left this on another post but it was ignored completely. I wonder why that is.....

Which one? I don't spend the whole day in the internet...

Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God..."

Have you ever read it in Hebrew? Well... I honestly think the Bible needs a good revision. Just because God wishes us to worship Him, that doesn't mean He is jealous. The people translating it might have assumed that He was jealous by that very reason. So you need to go back to the Hebrew and see that. Also, and interlinear Bible might do the job.

"Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children..... Defile the temple and fill the courts with slain. Go!...."

Again, need to check on Hebrew. Also make an extense look into the scirptures. There were some scriptures like that that I totally couldn't understand. After reading further and going deeper and keeping it in my mind I could figure out what they meant. Oh... and please tell me where it's written.

God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the apple or they would instantly die. The serpent said they wouldn't.... The serpent was right. God was a liar.

Where God said that they would "instantly" die? God said that they would die because to eat from that tree was a sin. The wages of sin is death. That's why they would die. The serpent said they wouldn't. The serpent was a liar. The serpent lied to them saying that they would become like God. Did they become like God? I don't think so. God said the Truth. They died.

"The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain..." (God has a heart? Doesn't that possibly suggest mortality?) "...I will wipe makind, whom i have created, from the face of the earth.."

The "heart" or "soul" is a part of every living being. What suggest mortality is a body and a dead spirit. A spirit is dead because of sin. For example, your spirit is dead, since you are a sinner. That's what makes you a mortal. My spirit is alive, and that makes me immortal, not in body, but in spirit.

And again, quote it from the Bible so taht I can read the whole passage. If I can't read the whole passage, I can't really give an answer (unless I, myself, know where it is).

"Then the Lord rained down burning sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah.... but Lots wife looked back and she became a pillar of salt"

Quote...

The ten plagues.... (you know what he did there)

What are you talking about exactly? When Moses bring the Jews out of Egipt?

Feast of Tabernacles .... (why does god need cows, sheep and virgin women as offerings?)

Virgin women? Quote it...

"The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in the book of the Law until you are destroyed... Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you.."

Is that Deuteronomy 28? The word "bring" there is, in Hebrew, "allow". It is a result of the Law. If you brake the Law, those things happen to you. You reap what you sow...

"The Lord will never be willing to forgive him; his wrath and zeal will burn agains that man. All the curses written in this book will fall upon him, and the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven. The Lord will single him out from all the tribes of Israel for disaster..."

Again... if you are under the Law, you have to keep it.

Does this not show true evil? Where's this 'love', 'compassion' etc that you state? Of course you, the church, the religious folk tend to ignore stuff like this. He even went so far as to say it 'pleases' him to ruin and destroy. It also pleases me to kill people- does that make me bad? After all i am made in the image of god- i only have fun doing what he has fun doing.

When Adam sinned, His image was not expressed in us anymore. We were made in His image, but transformed in the image of the one we worship then- Satan. When we sinned in the garden, we became slaves of sin. When Jesus died for us, we became slaves of righteousness (all Chistians, of course).

I continue later... I don't have time now...

 

[SnakeLord]

Luke 5:36-39
"36 And He was also telling them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old.
37 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.
38 "But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.
39 "And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good enough.'"

Why didn't you feel the need to include the rest of this? Jesus is talking about fasting. They ask him why his people are not fasting like the rest of them and he goes into chat about bridegrooms, and garments.

It bears absolutely NO relevance to old vs new testament. You really believe you just have the right to pick and choose particular sentences to meet your needs in this circumstance? Shocking.

Hebrews 10:1
"1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near."

This is talking about sacrificing goats and bulls and how it's a worthless thing to do. Again you just pick one sentence out of the bible and ignore the fact it does nothing to help your claims if anyone has taken the time to read the rest of it.

It has some importance, but nopt as much as people seem to think. The Law is already written upon our hearts, and we don't NEED to follow it in order to go to Heaven (we follow it naturally anyways...). So His Words aren't irrelevant, they are just being specially adressed to Jews and non-believers.

The law is already written upon our hearts too. You think morals and good doing comes from a book? Comes from a voice in your head? We don't need to follow it either but anyone past the age of 2 will know the differences between right and wrong naturally. The Jews and non believers are no different. Don't be an ignoramus.

he saw a light from Heaven that blinded him, and then Jesus spoke with him and revealed that He IS Christ.

He saw a comet. How would you explain the sighting of a comet 2000 years ago? They didn't even know what a comet was a couple of hundred years ago let alone a couple of thousand. He runs off to his buddy and mentions his sighting whereby Jesus takes full advantage of his friends fragile state of mind, (just like christians have been doing ever since), and tells him he is god. What's to say Jesus wasn't just an accomplished con artist? I wouldn't have thought carpentry earned that much money. Maybe he even faked his own death- it has happened before.

Deny? In which sense?

Do you think you can state the Jews are wrong, the non believers are wrong? The hindus, ancient greeks, the vikings.... Can you state they are all wrong? If you answer yes i'll be forced to call you a self righteous, pompous, ignorant asshole. I know you'll forgive me though so it's not a hassle.

It usually doesn't seem so...

Well you see.... the love, compassion and goodwill of non believers is coded to the minds that don't have the capacity to understand. You must 'want' to find it, or you never will.

I usually quote and explain a lot. Wheter you have the capacity to understand it or not, I guess that's your own personal problem, and I can't do much about it.

No you quote tiny little segments of text and try to attribute it to something completely unrelated. You explain nothing but claim everything. As for my lack of understanding... Whatever you think.

I guess you have read a different Bible than I did, then...

Or you just haven't read it at all.

Again, need to check on Hebrew. Also make an extense look into the scirptures. There were some scriptures like that that I totally couldn't understand. After reading further and going deeper and keeping it in my mind I could figure out what they meant. Oh... and please tell me where it's written.

Always the way.... Anything that you religious folk find distasteful becoms nothing more than bad translation. Anything you claim is the absolute 'word of god'- anything we claim is fucked up Hebrew/Greek etc. Someone like you has just left an identical reply on another thread. He claims it's mistranslated Greek, you claim it's mistranslated Hebrew....... You both seem able to pick and choose what god said and what was translated incorrectly.

Where God said that they would "instantly" die? God said that they would die because to eat from that tree was a sin. The wages of sin is death. That's why they would die. The serpent said they wouldn't. The serpent was a liar. The serpent lied to them saying that they would become like God. Did they become like God? I don't think so. God said the Truth. They died.

I'll accept that as an answer. See.... i'm a nice guy like that- i wont sit here and say you're just reading mistranslated Hebrew.

The "heart" or "soul" is a part of every living being.

So the heart and the soul are the same thing?

For example, your spirit is dead, since you are a sinner.

If my spirit is dead, because im apparently a sinner, then so is my heart- as they are one and the same. I just had it checked by a doctor- it's still alive and beating. You are wrong.

My spirit is alive, and that makes me immortal, not in body, but in spirit.

Lol...... you have such a high ego.

And again, quote it from the Bible so taht I can read the whole passage. If I can't read the whole passage, I can't really give an answer (unless I, myself, know where it is).

I'll bear that in mind next time i quote.

What are you talking about exactly? When Moses bring the Jews out of Egipt?

Have you even read the bible??

Virgin women? Quote it...

To save boring everyone go read it. If you can't find it i'll paste it all later.

Is that Deuteronomy 28? The word "bring" there is, in Hebrew, "allow". It is a result of the Law. If you brake the Law, those things happen to you. You reap what you sow...

Once again it comes down to bad translation. While we're on the subject of bad translations you do realise Elohim is actually a plural word meaning 'Gods', not God as it was badly translated as meaning. Thus there's more than one god and you're wrong. Yes/no? If it's a simple as classing everything as a bad translation there's one more for you to consider.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Lord will never be willing to forgive him; his wrath and zeal will burn agains that man. All the curses written in this book will fall upon him, and the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven. The Lord will single him out from all the tribes of Israel for disaster..."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Again... if you are under the Law, you have to keep it.

That's all you could say? Still, i guess it's better than blaming it all on bad translations- however read it once more... I think your 'explanation' lacks any kind of justification.

we became slaves of righteousness (all Chistians, of course).

Slaves of self righteousness. You're absolutely right.

 

[heflores]

To be a christian is to say

- Lord Jesus Christ in every other sentance...
- To hate your own family and blood because they chose to stay catholic and to hang around complete strangers who attend your church and treat them like family.
- To love your pastor more than you have ever loved or respected your dad.
- To always feel high and up in the sky on the social rush that you get from attending church.
- To feel like the pastor like you most of all, and that one day, you'll head the church and lead all those people.

 

[Horseman42]

TruthSeeker,

Thank you for your speed reply.

You said...

We all sin, therefore we all die. Death is the natural result of sin.

Here's another quote in the Bible from Leviticus 10.16

One who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall be put to death; the whole congregation shall stone the blasphemer.

That sounds real natural to be put to death. I guess it must be alright if God commanded it though right? Don't forget he is the same God in the new testiment.

It is ALL ok. However, what is really for Christians is simply the New Testament stuff. The 10 commandments is basically "Love one another". That's all. You don't really need to rely on 10 commandments when you only really need 1.

Again your picking and choosing what you believe. If it's all OK then it must have been OK that blasphemers to be stoned to death. Wait there's more...

Andy can't go to Heaven. Andy said to God: God, I don't believe you exist. I don't want to be in your presence. It was Andy's choice. Besides, again, it depends what is hell. If it is eternal suffering in fire or just a place where God doesn't exist (like an atheist's mind... ).

God is our father I'm sure you've heard him called this. Almost all fathers would never condemn their children to a hell. To deny Andy a place in heaven would be crazy. If god is everywhere (which is what I was taught to believe) then he would even exist in an atheist's mind, as well as inside Andy's soul. I can't fathom how God could say I don't want to be in Andy's presence because he would in effect be saying I don't wan't to be in my own presence. This means God would be crazy!

It's also unfair to Andy. The decision to believe in God or not is a very difficult one. We would be here talking if it wasn't. Surely God would understand this fact.

Horseman42

 

[TruthSeeker]

SnakeLord,

Why didn't you feel the need to include the rest of this? Jesus is talking about fasting. They ask him why his people are not fasting like the rest of them and he goes into chat about bridegrooms, and garments.

It bears absolutely NO relevance to old vs new testament. You really believe you just have the right to pick and choose particular sentences to meet your needs in this circumstance? Shocking.

Oh my God... You have absolutly no idea what the verses are talking about...

Luke 5:30-35
"30 The Pharisees and their scribes began grumbling at His disciples, saying, "Why do you eat and drink with the tax collectors and sinners?"
31 And Jesus answered and said to them, "It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick.
32 "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."
33 And they said to Him, "The disciples of John often fast and offer prayers, the disciples of the Pharisees also do the same, but Yours eat and drink."
34 And Jesus said to them, "You cannot make the attendants of the bridegroom fast while the bridegroom is with them, can you?
35 "But the days will come; and when the bridegroom is taken away from them, then they will fast in those days." "

This passage is talking about Christ's ressurection. The thesis is in the 31 verse, NOT on the 33 one. Verse 33 talks about the opinion of the Pahrisees, whcih are those that are against God. What you have done is to consider that the Pharisees were talking, while in truth, Jesus was talking. In verse 32 He expands the idea and say that the righteous ones don't need Him. In verse 34, He gives the answer to the Pharisees:

"You cannot make the attendants of t bridegroom fast while the bridegroom is with them, can you? But the days will come; and when the bridegroom is taken away from them, then they will fast in those days."

The "bridegroom" is Himself. He is using a metaphor. Then, when He is taken away, then there would be fasting. And then He goes on and explains why He has to be taken away and the consequences. which is verses 36 to 39.

This is talking about sacrificing goats and bulls and how it's a worthless thing to do. Again you just pick one sentence out of the bible and ignore the fact it does nothing to help your claims if anyone has taken the time to read the rest of it.

No it's not.

Hebrews 10:1
"1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near."

The verse is talking about the difference between the Old Testament and New Testament. In the Old, you had to be forgiven everytime. In the New, there is no such thing. The verse says that the Law was just a preparation, or in a better word, a blueprint, of the things to come, the New Testament.

The law is already written upon our hearts too. You think morals and good doing comes from a book? Comes from a voice in your head? We don't need to follow it either but anyone past the age of 2 will know the differences between right and wrong naturally. The Jews and non believers are no different. Don't be an ignoramus.

The mouth speaks which feels the heart. The tree is recognized by its fruits. No, you don't have the Law in your heart. The Law is just in you mind, that's all. But it is not really deep in you, it is just on the surface. And morals and good things did come from the Law of God. What is the oldest document that talks about morals and law? Moses came up with the very first document about our laws. Those laws were inspired by God. Then, the laws were changed and many more things were added, unfortunatly...

The Jews and the unbelievers need to follow those Laws in order to go to Heaven. All of them. Never brake not even one of them.

He saw a comet. How would you explain the sighting of a comet 2000 years ago? They didn't even know what a comet was a couple of hundred years ago let alone a couple of thousand. He runs off to his buddy and mentions his sighting whereby Jesus takes full advantage of his friends fragile state of mind, (just like christians have been doing ever since), and tells him he is god. What's to say Jesus wasn't just an accomplished con artist? I wouldn't have thought carpentry earned that much money. Maybe he even faked his own death- it has happened before.

The light blinded him. It couldn't be a comet. Besides, not only Paul, but two guys that were with him heard Jesus when He was speaking.

Do you think you can state the Jews are wrong, the non believers are wrong? The hindus, ancient greeks, the vikings.... Can you state they are all wrong? If you answer yes i'll be forced to call you a self righteous, pompous, ignorant asshole. I know you'll forgive me though so it's not a hassle.

I'm not self right and all that just because I deny they are wrong. You, yourself say that I'm wrong and everybody elease is wrong and that you are right, don't you? So... can I call you self righteous, pompous, ignorant asshole? I guess so... if that's the case...

Well you see.... the love, compassion and goodwill of non believers is coded to the minds that don't have the capacity to understand. You must 'want' to find it, or you never will.

No. You have no love or compassion or anything like that. You are judges and self righteous people. You have nothing of godly in you.

No you quote tiny little segments of text and try to attribute it to something completely unrelated. You explain nothing but claim everything. As for my lack of understanding... Whatever you think.

I provided extensive explanations for every scripture I presented to you and to others. It is you atheists that get bits and pieces of scripture in order to find a "contradiction" in it. That's how you find a contradiction in the Bible, comparing to a common book:

You read one sentence saying:
"The house is yellow."

And in another part totalyl different you read:
"The house is blue."

Then you say that those two sentences contradict each other. However, you totally got it out of context. The possibilities could be basically:
- the sentences are talking about two different houses
- the sentences are talking about the same house in two different time frames

So, you totally twist the Word trying to get it out of context. I usually post huge chuncks of scripture in order to avoid you doing that, and I always ask for the verses you post for the same reason (many times you don't say where to find it in the Bible)...

Or you just haven't read it at all.

What? Now, you are saying that you know it better then I? That's kinda funky...

Always the way.... Anything that you religious folk find distasteful becoms nothing more than bad translation. Anything you claim is the absolute 'word of god'- anything we claim is fucked up Hebrew/Greek etc. Someone like you has just left an identical reply on another thread. He claims it's mistranslated Greek, you claim it's mistranslated Hebrew....... You both seem able to pick and choose what god said and what was translated incorrectly

If you doubt, just go ans study Greek and Hebrew...
There are LOTS of space there for mistakes. A little list of possible mistakes:
- an adjective being mistaken by an adverb and vice-versa
- mistranslation caused by a single accent or lack of it in the word
- mistranslation caused by the interpretation of a case (like mistaking vocative for genitive)

So the heart and the soul are the same thing?

The heart is the deepest part of the soul.

If my spirit is dead, because im apparently a sinner, then so is my heart- as they are one and the same. I just had it checked by a doctor- it's still alive and beating. You are wrong.

No, your spirit is not one with your heart. They are two separate parts of you.

Lol...... you have such a high ego.

No. Just because I say the truth, that doesn't mean I have a high ego.

Have you even read the bible??

Not the WHOLE Bible. And I'm pretty sure you haven't read it all either.

To save boring everyone go read it. If you can't find it i'll paste it all later.

Paste it or give me the reference.

Once again it comes down to bad translation. While we're on the subject of bad translations you do realise Elohim is actually a plural word meaning 'Gods', not God as it was badly translated as meaning. Thus there's more than one god and you're wrong. Yes/no? If it's a simple as classing everything as a bad translation there's one more for you to consider.

"God" and "gods" depends on the verse. When it is written about "gods", it is talking about false gods. Like when Aaron made an idol and people bring sacrifices to it. That was a false gods. God said: Don't worship any other god then me. Because it is pretty stupid to worship an object that has no life in it.

That's all you could say? Still, i guess it's better than blaming it all on bad translations- however read it once more... I think your 'explanation' lacks any kind of justification.

It is also written that if you don't keep the Law you will get yourself accursed. Who curse who? It is you that curse yourwself by your own actions. Like if you go and sleep with your neightbour's wife and then he kills you. It was you that made him kill you. You bring destruction upon yourself.

Slaves of self righteousness. You're absolutely right.

Is it self righteousness to say that we are not rigtheous unless God is in us, that we depend on Him to be righteous? Or is it self rigtheousness to say that you don't need any God in order for you to be righteous and great?

 

[TruthSeeker]

Horseman42,

That sounds real natural to be put to death. I guess it must be alright if God commanded it though right? Don't forget he is the same God in the new testiment.

Yes, it is the same God in the New Testament. That's why it is written:

John 8:3-11
"3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court,
4 they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.
5 "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?"
6 They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.
7 But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
8 Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.
10 Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?"
11 She said, "No one, Lord." [And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."] "

Jesus also healed in the Sabath, which was not "lawful". The key here is: who are us to judge the sins of others? We are also sinful, so should we stone ourselves also? Jesus makes you think about those things. The Law was written for unrighteous people and can only be fulfilled through a righteous one. So you can only be stoned by a righteous person. Since everyone sins, who can stone you? Jesus? God? But they don't, because they have forgiven you.

Again your picking and choosing what you believe. If it's all OK then it must have been OK that blasphemers to be stoned to death. Wait there's more...

No I'm not. It is written:

Romans 13:8-9
"8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." "

God is our father I'm sure you've heard him called this. Almost all fathers would never condemn their children to a hell. To deny Andy a place in heaven would be crazy. If god is everywhere (which is what I was taught to believe) then he would even exist in an atheist's mind, as well as inside Andy's soul. I can't fathom how God could say I don't want to be in Andy's presence because he would in effect be saying I don't wan't to be in my own presence. This means God would be crazy!

No, God is not everywhere in this sense. God cannot live inside you unless you accept so. Also, God doesn't live inside pigs either :bugeye:. In the same way the air is everywhere, God is everywhere. The air goes inside you if you allow so, and so does God.

It's also unfair to Andy. The decision to believe in God or not is a very difficult one. We would be here talking if it wasn't. Surely God would understand this fact.

If you are humble enough to recognize you are a particle of dust compared to the universe, you are perfectly capable to believe in God and, actually, also to know He exists.

 

[TruthSeeker]

sycoindian,

Sorry about the late reply... it is quite hard to write for so many people...

ummm... how did u come to that conclusion?

Romans 5:17-18
"17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. "