What It Means To Be A Christian

SnakeLord,

I'm a guy who wants to find the truth, the whole truth, and nothing bu the truth. Familiar saying but one that is taking out of all meaning.
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I just have to say this whole thing is nicely put. I think a lot of us can agree with the points you have made.:)

TruthSeeker,

There are people that not matter what you do to convince them, they won't be convinced by their own choice. They will just say that they don't believe and they won't give up on that. God cannot go against anyone's free will. He chose not to do that since the beginning and He probably promised Himself not to do so.
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I can kind of understand what you mean by this, although it's a little vague. There are either going to be people who except that God exists or that God doesn't. Then why has God proved his existance to only a select few and not other people? This doesn't make sense if we are to have free will as you put it why even prove his existance to anyone? Any act would be a violation of our "free will" as some would become convinced.

For example if God appeared as burning bush perhaps 45% of the people witnessing would believe it's God (violating our free will). Wearas 55% of the people would believe it not to be God (based on their own perceptions). God could have appeared in a different way in the example whereby everyone would have understood (he's God and can do anything).

Looking at it another way. People (who were originally non-believers) have stated time and time again that certain "miracles" or experiences they have proved to them the existance of God. Assuming that these experiences are truely from God then he has voilated our free will according to what you stated before.


Also speaking of free will. I posted before...

Right so now the choice is to accept Christ in your heart or not. If we don't then we go to hell. So therefore God is giving us the choice to choose (because we have free will) and then punishing us if we make the wrong decision. This is what I meant that it seams like we have a gun to our heads.
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Thought you said God doesn't voilate our free will, but it sure feels like that way to me according to what you say.


Horseman42
 
Anytime someone wants you to accept something by replacing reason with faith, you are witnessing the perpetuation of a deception.
 
Horseman42,

I can kind of understand what you mean by this, although it's a little vague. There are either going to be people who except that God exists or that God doesn't. Then why has God proved his existance to only a select few and not other people? This doesn't make sense if we are to have free will as you put it why even prove his existance to anyone? Any act would be a violation of our "free will" as some would become convinced.
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If He told us to go to the whole world and preach the gospel, then this means that people can receive it from us. So I don't know how to really answer all that. What I know is that some people accept easily, others accept hardly and some others finish by not accepting for whatever personal reason.

For example if God appeared as burning bush perhaps 45% of the people witnessing would believe it's God (violating our free will). Wearas 55% of the people would believe it not to be God (based on their own perceptions). God could have appeared in a different way in the example whereby everyone would have understood (he's God and can do anything).
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The way you perceive the Truth is not necessarily the pure expression of what the truth really is. And... why would that violate our free will...??:confused:

Looking at it another way. People (who were originally non-believers) have stated time and time again that certain "miracles" or experiences they have proved to them the existance of God. Assuming that these experiences are truely from God then he has voilated our free will according to what you stated before.
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How? How is that violating free will??

Thought you said God doesn't voilate our free will, but it sure feels like that way to me according to what you say.
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Again, what have I said that would mean that God violate our free will?
 
Raithere,

The death of Judas
Matthew 27:3
Then when Judas, who had betrayed Him, saw that He had been condemned, he felt remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood." But they said, "What is that to us? See to that yourself!" And he threw the pieces of silver into the temple sanctuary and departed; and he went away and hanged himself.
Acts 1:16-18
"Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus. "For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry." (Now this man acquired a field with the price of his wickedness, and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his intestines gushed out.
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I talked about this one with my pastor.
The book of acts was written by Luke. There is a passage in the gospel of Luke that says that Judas hanged himself. The passage in Acts tells what you said it tells. The thing here is that one account doesn't contradict the other. Both accounts are right. Luke just went further with the explanation in Acts.
 
"one account doesn't contradict the other"
"... and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out" Acts 1:18

OK, by faith I can see that's a description of a suicide hanging:rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
This is meant for everyone to follow. But this scripture clearly says that this was adressed to the Jews. The difference is that Christians do this naturally, so it is kinda pointless to tell them to do so. But the Jews didn't.


Paul. Have you read the passage in Matthew at all? In the Matthew one, Jesus was the one speaking.
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Thanks Truthseeker for your patience and your responces. I still see holes in your logic though regarding the modern interpretation of the bible regarding the trinity and that god forbid, the claim that Jesus is god.

So if the Christians do follow the first commandment and believe that god in the only point of worship, then why do they put Jesus in the place of god by calling him a god, even though he was addressing them as a messanger of god.

You didn't anwer my question about the Roman scripture you posted earlier, if Jesus is indeed speaking, so why would he refer to himself as our....doesn't make any sense. He should have said me.
 
TruthSeeker,


Let me try and explain it all again, becuase you must be having difficultly with this concept...

1) God want all to come to heaven and to know him

2) Mankind would need proof of the existance of God so we may come to heaven. As we can't get in if we don't (you say).

3) God gave us this proof (tons of examples in the bible)

Now either one excepts this proof or denies it.

Excepts ----> God has conviced me to believe in his nature (according to what you said this voilates my free will!)

Denies ------> God must not be all powerful if he cannot convince me of his nature.

In essence one must assume all people except the fact God exists otherwise your saying he's not all powerful. If this is true then again he has voilated our free will!! Do you understand now?

I said before...

Right so now the choice is to accept Christ in your heart or not. If we don't then we go to hell. So therefore God is giving us the choice to choose (because we have free will) and then punishing us if we make the wrong decision. This is what I meant that it seams like we have a gun to our heads.
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Did you even read the above? This is what you believe is it not? What "choice" do I really have if I don't want to go to Hell? I'm not really free to decide then am I? This is the third time I've posted this and you still haven't explained it to me yet!


Horseman42
 
Originally posted by Horseman42
TruthSeeker,

I can kind of understand what you mean by this, although it's a little vague. There are either going to be people who except that God exists or that God doesn't. Then why has God proved his existance to only a select few and not other people? This doesn't make sense if we are to have free will as you put it why even prove his existance to anyone? Any act would be a violation of our "free will" as some would become convinced.

For example if God appeared as burning bush perhaps 45% of the people witnessing would believe it's God (violating our free will). Wearas 55% of the people would believe it not to be God (based on their own perceptions). God could have appeared in a different way in the example whereby everyone would have understood (he's God and can do anything).

Looking at it another way. People (who were originally non-believers) have stated time and time again that certain "miracles" or experiences they have proved to them the existance of God. Assuming that these experiences are truely from God then he has voilated our free will according to what you stated before.

Horseman42
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I wouldnt say that God is really 'proving' His existence to us (at least not 100%, non-deniable proof that could convince anyone, tho I'm sure He's capable of that) I think that God is more 'revealing' Himself to us and we have our free-will in that we can choose to see it or ignore it.

like in your example of the burning bush; God reveals some of His power by speaking thru a burning bush that isnt burning of fire as we know it.....some people choose to look at that and say 'hey, there's God! He's revealing Himself too us again!' and others choose to say 'thats not God, its just a burning bush' The choice to ignore God often comes when people dont want to give up the 'sin' in their life, such as smoking, drinking, pre-marital sex, lying, etc...because to see God in that bush means that you accept Him and His Laws and you hafta give that stuff up.

(btw those who dont know what we mean by the burning bush, its in the story of Moses....Exodus.....and God tells moses to go to Egypt and lead God's people out of slavery and into the promised land, by speaking as a burning bush)

God doesnt prove Himself to us totally because to PROVE it would mean that we dont have the choice to ignore it.........and then its not of our free-will to follow Him, its because we have to. God loves us and wants us to love Him back, of our own choosing.

Hope that clarifies a bit! great discussion folks, I'm so happy to see you respecting each other!
 
Horseman42,

Excepts ----> God has conviced me to believe in his nature (according to what you said this voilates my free will!)
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No, that doesn't violate free will.

Denies ------> God must not be all powerful if he cannot convince me of his nature.
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Your choice is not a part of His free will, it is a part of your. God gave you a huge power, the power to choose. God cannot change what you choose, it is yours.

Did you even read the above? This is what you believe is it not? What "choice" do I really have if I don't want to go to Hell? I'm not really free to decide then am I? This is the third time I've posted this and you still haven't explained it to me yet!
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If you don't want to go to hell, accept God to live in your heart. If this is your choice (go to Heaven), then that's what you have to do. Heaven only exist when you are with God. That's what makes the difference. It is God that makes Heaven a nice place. If you accept God, you accept Heaven. You cannot accept one and deny the other, because Heaven is God, and God is Heaven. If you want to go to Heaven, that means that you are already accepting God. If you want to accept God, then I welcome you in the family... :)
 
TruthSeeker,

Your choice is not a part of His free will, it is a part of your. God gave you a huge power, the power to choose. God cannot change what you choose, it is yours.
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So there will always be those who are destined for Hell and those who are going to heaven, and there's nothing God can do about this. Funny he would create souls that are destined for hell to begin with if he wants all to come to heaven. I hardly think this is fair for a loving God to send his own children to Hell for not understanding his message!

.
If you don't want to go to hell, accept God to live in your heart. If this is your choice (go to Heaven), then that's what you have to do. Heaven only exist when you are with God. That's what makes the difference. It is God that makes Heaven a nice place. If you accept God, you accept Heaven. You cannot accept one and deny the other, because Heaven is God, and God is Heaven. If you want to go to Heaven, that means that you are already accepting God. If you want to accept God, then I welcome you in the family...
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I can understand what you're saying here, this all makes perfect sense to me. The part I have a problem with is if you choose not to believe in God. You said those that don't believe go to Hell. This is the part I don't understand. Who in their right mind is going to NOT accept God in their heart faced with the possibility of going to Hell? It doesn't seem like much of a choice.

Trust me it's not that I don't want to believe in Christianity. I'm just trying to look for answers, and I want to believe for the right reasons.


Horseman42
 
I think it convenient to mold God with human like qualities- love, compassion, forgiveness....etc.. therefore you can create something that you can understand. But are states of mind really part of being perfect? I would say no.

We can look at atoms and watch them react and do all those wonderful things they do, atoms dont have thoughts, they merely just interact. They do not show signs of intelligence but nonetheless do some amazing things that we are starting to grasp as humans.

We are moving forward, sometimes taking small steps back, but we strive to know the answers and at a time religion gave a plausible for the time explanation. Now science is the new religion so to say, it has given us answers when there was specualtion in its place. Why would you turn your back on it? Ask yourself-what do you value more Happy speculation or Hard evidence. If you say you want truth, then you have to accept the fact that it might not make you feel warm and tingly inside. 2000 years ago some guys collaborated on a book, something that has been done before, many times, so what? what does it hold except for some wishful thinking. It gives us a depiction of a Human molded God that is as confused as he is one mean son of a bitch.

See, all these questions people ask regarding God's nature, or of religion in general are not due to a misunderstanding so much, as to an utter confusion of one's capacity for self delusion.

Maybe God is real.....maybe its not a he but a she. I mean who can be so irrational and miscommunicate so well. You know what, truth be told Humans made him up thats why there is so many questions out there, cause if he existed he wouldnt play hide and seek games and cause some of us, (whom are on a honest search for the truth) to suffer eternally for not seeing the "obvious" Dont people see the contradictions? Im starting to think by answering some of these questions they try to convince themselves in the process instead of enlightening us. The truth is- Life is unfair, life is cruel, life doesnt care a single bit about anyone, it is mindless and has no plan, we are transports for our genes and thats the purpose of life, hard to accept? Yes I understand people WANT more, but really, do you want fiction or reality.

Richard Dawkins- "the universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference."
 
Horseman42,

So there will always be those who are destined for Hell and those who are going to heaven, and there's nothing God can do about this. Funny he would create souls that are destined for hell to begin with if he wants all to come to heaven. I hardly think this is fair for a loving God to send his own children to Hell for not understanding his message!
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Predestination again...

No. God created everyone to accept Him. It is the choices that we make during life that molds our personality into making the choice of going to hell. Basically, we born with our eyes turned to Heaven, but as we make choices, our eyes turn to the right or to the left, and then... it is lost. God still gives the chance to everyone. You are having a chance right now. Wheter you accept it or not it is your own choice.

I can understand what you're saying here, this all makes perfect sense to me. The part I have a problem with is if you choose not to believe in God. You said those that don't believe go to Hell. This is the part I don't understand. Who in their right mind is going to NOT accept God in their heart faced with the possibility of going to Hell? It doesn't seem like much of a choice.
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The hard part that you seme not to understand is that God prepared a place for those who don't accept Him. The choice is of the person. Hell is just a place where God is not there, because you didn't accept Him. He won't make you go to Heaven if you don't want to. Why wouldn't you choose to go to Heaven? Or you are with God, or you are without Him. What do you choose? It is your choice. Hell is not a place created to punish, it is a place created for those that don't want God, that's all.

Trust me it's not that I don't want to believe in Christianity. I'm just trying to look for answers, and I want to believe for the right reasons.
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Believe that God is Life and He comes to live within you if you ask Him and you shall be saved. He is acccepts you wholeheartly. He has a place prepared for you in Heaven. He has already forgiven all your sins. I like you trying to believe for the right reasons. That's much better then blind faith. It is your choice.
 
Believe that God is Life and He comes to live within you if you ask Him and you shall be saved
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Thrown into a hostile situation with dire consequences, and only if you acknowledge his existance you can join his club. Is he somehow weeding out the people he doesnt like?
 
TruthSeeker,


Predestination again...
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Sorry if you've already covered this, but since were on the topic...

No. God created everyone to accept Him. It is the choices that we make during life that molds our personality into making the choice of going to hell. Basically, we born with our eyes turned to Heaven, but as we make choices, our eyes turn to the right or to the left, and then... it is lost. God still gives the chance to everyone. You are having a chance right now. Wheter you accept it or not it is your own choice.
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Again you forget what all-knowing means. God knows the choices we make before we make them. He therefore knows who is going to hell before they are born! If he gives the chance to everyone then either he doesn't know who's going to heaven/hell (and therefore he's not all knowing) or he creates those who are destined for hell. There's no two ways about it.

Hell is not a place created to punish, it is a place created for those that don't want God, that's all.
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I'm interested to know what your definition of Hell is because it's not the same one I was raised to understand. I was taught Hell was a place of eternal torcher, with fire, darkness and devils and demons running around with pichforks. Your kind of hell doesn't sound so bad really.

On a more personal note I do believe in God I believe in heaven. I believe there are many routes to heaven, not just from the Christian faith. I don't think a place like Hell can exist as I mentioned above, the real hell is not knowing about God.
 
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