What is the strongest atheist argument?

[rjr6]

[quote/]
Because there doesn't need to be an original complexity. Complexity doesn't need complexity to arise, evolution describes how that can happen. There are no serious detractors of the general principle of evolution in the scientific community. That's a lie.[/QUOTE]


The t.o.e. never speaks to or about where life came from and is inadequate to do so. People lumping origin of life with origin of species is why we are in such a big mess when it comes to education in this country in regards to this subject.

 

[spidergoat]

טבע כפי שאלוהים פשוט משהו אחד רואה. לדעת שדברים מאחרים ולהפריד מה שאמיתיים ולא אמיתיים יהדות. דת מעולם לא משתדלת להשיב לשאלות של התחלות, זאת מחפשת לבנות עתיד .

The use of non-english languages is discouraged on this forum.

 

[Blindman]

Let me see.. Thousand of religions, and tens of thousands variations. How could you possibly find a god amongst all that BS.... Oh thats right there is no god or gods...

 

[Nasor]

The strongest atheist argument? That we are all atheists, because even those that believe in 'God', don't believe in the entire pantheon of gods ever invented by man. So the reason you don't believe in Quetzalqoatl is the same reason I don't believe in 'God'.

Of course, theists of the one god persuasion will dodge, and twist, but they have to admit they do not believe in quetzalqoatl, and if they list the reasons, and just go apply them to any other god, and we're all on the same page.

That's a nice sentiment, but a theist would likely answer with something like "I know those other gods aren't real because the REAL god told me they weren't real in his magical holly book" or something similar.

 

[Old man]

Logically, if there ever was a time when there was Nothing, what could there be now? Right. Nothing. Sagan claimed that the universe "suddenly exploded into being" (episode #1, The Cosmos). Creation ex nihilo. If there was nothing then there could not be anything now. It is a logical impossibility.

In order for there to be anything now, something has to have the intrinsic property of existence. I identify that something as God.

 

[Blindman]

Logically, if there ever was a time when there was Nothing,

Well if time did not exist how could there be a time of nothing.

Sagan claimed that the universe "suddenly exploded into being" (episode #1, The Cosmos).

The universe includes time. There was no before.

 

[Nasor]

Logically, if there ever was a time when there was Nothing, what could there be now? Right. Nothing.

You can't logically prove this. The idea that something can come spontaneously from nothing seems no more shocking or illogical to me than the existence of a magical all-knowing being that controls the universe.

In order for there to be anything now, something has to have the intrinsic property of existence. I identify that something as God.

You can define whatever created the matter etc. in the universe as "god" if you want, but that doesn't actually tell you anything about god. For all you know, your "god" might be some sort of random fluctuation in particle pair creation symmetry, or some other quirk of physics rather than any sort of being.

 

[OilIsMastery]

Are you suggesting Muslims don't lie? Wouldn't that make them unique amongst humans?

Don't you know that Muslims are perfect in every possible way and have never done anything morally wrong in world history?

The sole reason, from a biological perpsective, for having a complex brain is in order to lie (primarily for sex) and also to detect when others are lying (primarily about sex). "In 1978, [the homosexual Atheist fundamentalist] Richard Dawkins and John Krebs pointed out that animals use communication principally to manipulate one another rather than transfer information." -- Matt Ridley, The Red Queen

 

[Myles]

Don't you know that Muslims are perfect in every possible way and have never done anything morally wrong in world history?

The sole reason, from a biological perpsective, for having a complex brain is in order to lie (primarily for sex) and also to detect when others are lying (primarily about sex). "In 1978, [the homosexual Atheist fundamentalist] Richard Dawkins and John Krebs pointed out that animals use communication principally to manipulate one another rather than transfer information." -- Matt Ridley, The Red Queen

How can you be sure that Ridley wasn't lying ?

 

[Old man]

Well if time did not exist how could there be a time of nothing.

Another way to put it is if there ever was nothing there could not be anything now: ex nihilo nihilfit.

The universe includes time. There was no before.

Time is a convenient construct of man. The rocks have no concept of time.

 

[greenberg]

How can you be sure that Ridley wasn't lying ?

What does it matter? He apparently managed to manipulate you enough to give his words some thought.

 

[Oli]

Another way to put it is if there ever was nothing there could not be anything now: ex nihilo nihilfit.

Supposition.

Time is a convenient construct of man. The rocks have no concept of time.

Rocks have no concept of frogs either.
Therefore....

 

[Old man]

You can't logically prove this. The idea that something can come spontaneously from nothing seems no more shocking or illogical to me than the existence of a magical all-knowing being that controls the universe.

To believe that anything can spontaneously appear out of nothing strains credulity. It is a logical impossibility. Set aside the supposition of God for the moment and consider only the act of something appearing from nothing. Do you have a mechanism for this?

You can define whatever created the matter etc. in the universe as "god" if you want, but that doesn't actually tell you anything about god. For all you know, your "god" might be some sort of random fluctuation in particle pair creation symmetry, or some other quirk of physics rather than any sort of being.

I can see how you might think so.

 

[greenberg]

Don't you know that Muslims are perfect in every possible way and have never done anything morally wrong in world history?

The sole reason, from a biological perpsective, for having a complex brain is in order to lie (primarily for sex) and also to detect when others are lying (primarily about sex). "In 1978, [the homosexual Atheist fundamentalist] Richard Dawkins and John Krebs pointed out that animals

use communication principally to manipulate one another rather than transfer information."
-- Matt Ridley, The Red Queen

I find this to be a very interesting thought. I would say it is true for humans as well that they use communication first and foremost to manipulate each other.
Living beings have only limited time and energy, they cannot afford much "disinterested knowledge" or "disinterested action".
We always communicate with a purpose, to accomplish something, even if we ourselves are not always aware of this purpose.

 

[Myles]

What does it matter? He apparently managed to manipulate you enough to give his words some thought.

You are bang to rights on that one.

 

[CheskiChips]

The use of non-english languages is discouraged on this forum.

It was addressed to you, so I assumed it fine.

 

[spidergoat]

I don't read or speak hebrew.

 

[Blindman]

Another way to put it is if there ever was nothing there could not be anything now: ex nihilo nihilfit.

There never was nothing, its a hard thing to grasp. "if there ever was" implies the existence of time and "nothing" means nothing at all including time. Thus the statement "if there ever was nothing" is nonsensical

Time is a convenient construct of man. The rocks have no concept of time.

Time existed well before man came along and does not require us to continue on.
Rocks do, they age, they weather, radio Isotopes decay. They of course have no consciousness but they do know, in a way scientist via the various methods can ask rocks how old they are.

 

[phlogistician]

That's a nice sentiment, but a theist would likely answer with something like "I know those other gods aren't real because the REAL god told me they weren't real in his magical holly book" or something similar.

Of course the 'one god' lot would twist and turn, and they would perhaps also say that people who believed in those gods were either deluded by the devil, or that those gods were facets of their own.

The fact remains though, that they are still atheists wrt those gods. It's damn inconvenient for them, but there it is.

I can't wait for this monotheist fad to be over, anyway. Bring back the Roman Pantheon, it was far more entertaining.

 

[Old man]

There never was nothing, its a hard thing to grasp. "if there ever was" implies the existence of time and "nothing" means nothing at all including time. Thus the statement "if there ever was nothing" is nonsensical

I'm afraid not. If, as Big Bang suppositions assume, at some point the universe exploded into being, what was before (from our relative viewpoint) this miraculous appearance of everything out of nothing? Don't divert onto time. That isn't the subject. How did everything come from nothing?

Time existed well before man came along and does not require us to continue on.

You can say how we look at time or define it for our own purposes, but you can not say what time is. All we can do is attach artificial units of measure based on our own perceptions.

Rocks do, they age, they weather, radio Isotopes decay. They of course have no consciousness but they do know, in a way scientist via the various methods can ask rocks how old they are.

Rocks age, but they have no concept of how or why. They are oblivious to what we define as time. Scientists do not ask rocks how old they are. They test them. In the same way no one asks a book what it contains: they read it.