What is "Rape Culture"?

[tali89]

tali89: So? Just because you deny the relevance of something, doesn't mean that it isn't relevant.

iceaura: It does mean that I didn't say it was relevant.

So when you say something isn't relevant, then you mean that something isn't relevant. Wow, how insightful.

Either way, a number of other participants in this thread felt that the prevalence of rape is relevant to the discussion of the supposed rape culture. So for you to claim that I'm the only one who is talking about the issue is blatant misrepresentation.

tali said:
So now you're more of an authority on what I have heard than I am?

iceaura: I and most readers.

How do you know what jokes I have heard throughout my life? Do you have my house bugged? Can you read my mind via telepathy? Or are you going to admit that you're just engaging in yet more conjecture to support your ideologue (which you regard as axiomatic)?

When you make claims that silly,

What claim? That I've never heard anyone tell a rape joke? Or that I've heard people crack Holocaust jokes? That reminds me, you have yet to explain why rape jokes are proof of rape culture, while Holocaust jokes are not proof of an anti-Semitic genocide culture. It should be interesting to see the mental gymnastics required to reconcile that internal contradiction in your worldview.

iceaura said:
"I've mentioned a couple of obvious places, such as your home town with you in it."
tali89 said: My home town? Where do you think that is?

iceaura responded: Doesn't matter. Wherever it is, there you are.

My hometown is wherever am I? Yet another insightful comment on your behalf. You've made the claim that I live in a rape culture. How would you know that if you don't even know where I live? I think the answer is obvious... you can't. This is yet another example of you treating your ideology as axiomatic, and then re-interpreting and inventing facts to fit said idealogy.

tali said:
You previously claimed that anyone living outside of a rape culture have no real problem recognizing it, yet since particular participants in this thread can't see a rape culture, then it mustn't exist. That's your logic, not mine.

iceaura: The first claim is recognizably from me, slightly (but tellingly) altered. The part after the word "yet" is from you, not me.

They are both your claims, which I strung together to demonstrate how you have contradicted yourself. You've essentially claimed that people within a rape culture can't recognize it, and people who live outside the rape culture can't experience and identify it. Yet somehow you are enlightened enough to lecture us on the issue. How very convenient.

Ok, jury: is this mental illness, and I should lay off?

That's cute. You are appealing to a bunch of strangers on the internet in an attempt to identify and diagnose mental illness. That seems to be a common strategy among leftists here. Didn't the Communist party in the Soviet Union label ideological dissidents as 'mentally ill'? Go figure.

Anyway, to summarize Iceaura's beliefs so far:

"Although I don't know where you live, and can't provide any reliable measure of the prevalence of rape, I'm sure you live in a rape culture. It's proven by the rape jokes I know you've heard (even though you deny this, I just *know* you've heard them), the presence of gangs of rapists protected by the authorities (that I can't prove exist), the fear women have of rape (the fact that people fear things other than rape is irrelevant), and that the police treat rape far less seriously than theft (I don't need to provide statistics to support this claim). Oh, and the fact that people fear terrorist attacks and plane crashes, and tell Holocaust jokes, is all irrelevant! You're a misogynist and mentally ill!"

 

[tali89]

Right. We don't have a "plane crash" culture. But if parents told their kids to take parachutes on airplanes because they crash all the time

Because airlines don't have systems in place to deal with a plane crash? Who do you fly with?!

 

[Tiassa]

... then you'd have a good argument that we do have a culture that, at least partly, revolves around plane crashes.

Especially if parachutes are the alternative to lubing our jackscrews.

 

[iceaura]

Either way, a number of other participants in this thread felt that the prevalence of rape is relevant to the discussion of the supposed rape culture. So for you to claim that I'm the only one who is talking about the issue is blatant misrepresentation.

I didn't.

How do you know what jokes I have heard throughout my life?

Same way I know you've eaten a hamburger.

That reminds me, you have yet to explain why rape jokes are proof of rape culture, while Holocaust jokes are not proof of an anti-Semitic genocide culture.

I don't think rape jokes are proof of a rape culture. What's to explain?

You've made the claim that I live in a rape culture. How would you know that if you don't even know where I live?

Because you are part of the culture wherever you live. You did not come from Mars. And I'm looking at your posts, right here. It ain't rocket science.

iceaura: The first claim is recognizably from me, slightly (but tellingly) altered. The part after the word "yet" is from you, not me.
They are both your claims, which I strung together to demonstrate how you have contradicted yourself.

The second one is you scrambling all potential meaning into noise, and nothing I posted resembles it in the least.

Anyway, to summarize Iceaura's beliefs so far:

The last one's accurate. The rest are evidence for it.

You are appealing to a bunch of strangers on the internet in an attempt to identify and diagnose mental illness.

I'm not looking for a diagnosis, just wondering whether I'm being unkind by drawing you out like that, and wasting time in the process. It's not a typical troll situation, where the advice is automatic.

The close connection between rape culture and stuff that just looks crazy intrigues - kind of like how paranoid schizophrenics in the US so often display anti-Semitic obsessions or extreme racial bigotry.

 

[tali89]

tali89: Either way, a number of other participants in this thread felt that the prevalence of rape is relevant to the discussion of the supposed rape culture. So for you to claim that I'm the only one who is talking about the issue is blatant misrepresentation.

iceaura: I didn't.

It looks like I'm going to need to start quoting your own words back to you, since you appear to have a selective memory. You claimed that: "Nobody but you (tali89) is trying to make the frequency of rape the determining factor in whether or not a rape culture exists." However, I wasn't the one who posted the statistics in an attempt to demonstrate how common rape was. I merely observed that the studies were likely not an accurate representation of the frequency of rape. For you to claim that I am the only one who has mentioned rape frequency being related to 'rape culture' is false.

tali said:
How do you know what jokes I have heard throughout my life?

iceaura: Same way I know you've eaten a hamburger.

What on earth do hamburgers have to do with rape jokes? Can you prove I have heard a rape joke? If not, then it would be intellectually honest of you to admit that you were engaging in conjecture.

By the way, you haven't explained how rape jokes are evidence of rape culture, whereas Holocaust jokes are not evidence of an anti-Semitic Holocaust culture. Your failure to address these inconsistencies in your arguments is noted.

I don't think rape jokes are proof of a rape culture.

Yet you brought up the existence of rape jokes as evidence of the existence of rape culture. Once again, I'll quote your own words back to you:
"A rape culture exists whenever the source of the threat of rape is an ordinary and accepted part of the structure of one's society, jokes about rape and other casual references are common..." emphasis mine

Once again you are caught out in a contradiction.

Because you are part of the culture wherever you live.

If you don't know where I live, how do you know that I am part of a rape culture? This must be the third time I've asked you this question, and you've failed to provide a coherent answer, instead falling back on circular logic such as "Wherever it is, there you are." This isn't the first time I've encountered a left-winger who attempts to evade legitimate queries, but I've never seen one be so transparent while doing so.

You did not come from Mars.

LOL, what does me not being from Mars have to do with anything? Are you claiming that everywhere on Earth is a rape culture? This is just surreal.

The second one is you scrambling all potential meaning into noise

Your posts are already scrambled noise, you just don't realize it until you are forced to read them when they are quoted back at you.

I'm not looking for a diagnosis,

Yet you intimate I might have a mental illness, and invite other posters to jump on the bandwagon to ridicule me. Either you are trying to make a cheap personal attack by questioning my mental state, or actually believe I do have a mental illness. If you believe the latter, you're deliberating goading what you think is a mentally ill individual, which is a pretty low thing to do. But then again, that's what I've come to expect from socialists. They pretend to be high-minded humanitarians, yet at the drop of the hat will make a mockery of mental illness, all because someone has the audacity to disagree with them.

 

[Secular Sanity]

The data posted by Secular Sanity suggests that the risk of theft and robbery (theft while being threatened) is much higher than that of rape.

Yesterday, I took my dog for a walk at the lake. It’s a rural area. When I was letting the tailgate down, a man with two larger dogs were returning from their walk. His dogs were off the leash and came running up to my truck. I asked him if they were friendly. He said, very. It’s a beautiful day. Enjoy your walk. I said, thanks. I headed for a spot that I love. It’s quite a ways away from the parking lot. It’s a peninsula, but from a distance, I could see a male figure there. If there’s a female accompanying them, I’m more comfortable, but he was alone. So, I turned around and headed back to the truck before he noticed me. I was thinking about the statistics at the time. Thinking that I was being overly cautious. I know this guy who travels the world alone. He prefers it. I’m sure that there are women that do so, too, but I don’t think I could. We’ve always been urged to be much more cautious than men. That’s just how we live. This is part of our culture. Do you think that really small men live like this, too?

 

[iceaura]

You claimed that: "Nobody but you (tali89) is trying to make the frequency of rape the determining factor in whether or not a rape culture exists."

Yep.

For you to claim that I am the only one who has mentioned rape frequency being related to 'rape culture' is false.

I didn't. You have the quote right in front of you, read it.

Yet you brought up the existence of rape jokes as evidence of the existence of rape culture

Yep.

Once again you are caught out in a contradiction.

Nope.

If you don't know where I live, how do you know that I am part of a rape culture?

I keep answering this question, and you keep asking it.

This must be the third time I've asked you this question, and you've failed to provide a coherent answer, instead falling back on circular logic such as "Wherever it is, there you are."

That's not circular. The culture you are part of is a rape culture, by straight linear inference from your posts - beginning explicitly with your mentioning of the harassment video, a documentary of rape culture behavior which you described as guys saying hello. It looked normal to you.

If you believe the latter, you're deliberating goading what you think is a mentally ill individual, which is a pretty low thing to do.

That was my concern, yes - as I said, unkind. You obviously have some problems processing the posts here. But I've decided you are probably just a miserable specimen of "sane" humanity, and getting you to send yourself up like this is a good thing to do - it erodes the legitimacy of your opinions in these matters, which are widely shared by people who maybe haven't recognized what they look like made explicit, or what the support for them actually is.

But it's still notable how tight the correlation between rape culture and this weird, squirrel -fit inability to make or recognize sense in this matter is. When ostensibly oblivious rape culture folks are brought up in front of the matter, they tend to go spla - right on the screen. Defense mechanism?

 

[Bowser]

We’ve always been urged to be much more cautious than men. That’s just how we live. This is part of our culture. Do you think that really small men live like this, too?

And that might be the problem. We perpetuate the notion that men are sexual predators, virtually convicting every man on the street. If rape culture exists, it's exists in our heads.

 

[iceaura]

And that might be the problem. We perpetuate the notion that men are sexual predators, virtually convicting every man on the street. If rape culture exists, it's exists in our heads.

Nonsense. Again, it's easier to see if you step outside your culture, look at somebody else's with the same basic problem. Try Saudi Arabia.

The situation that may be confusing is that you are faced with the fact that rapist attitudes and the threat of rape as a real possibility are structural aspects of your community. It's not that all men are rapists, but that the fraction who are or could be, together with their attitudes and behaviors, is an accepted part of your normal society. They are not outcasts, avoided, warned against, the subjects of family interventions, famous for their dangerous proclivities and attitudes toward women, obviously different from their peers. They blend in. They have a role. As long as you cooperate in that situation women are well motivated to treat any given man in your culture as a potential rapist - because barring further info they are.

 

[Bowser]

Nonsense. Again, it's easier to see if you step outside your culture, look at somebody else's with the same basic problem. Try Saudi Arabia.

What is it about Saudi Arabia that reflects on OUR culture? Yes, there are true rape cultures in the world (Africa), but that does not reflect on my culture.

The situation that may be confusing is that you are faced with the fact that rapist attitudes and the threat of rape as a real possibility are structural aspects of your community. It's not that all men are rapists, but that the fraction who are or could be, together with their attitudes and behaviors, is an accepted part of your normal society. They are not outcasts, avoided, warned against, the subjects of family interventions, famous for their dangerous proclivities and attitudes toward women, obviously different from their peers. They blend in. They have a role. As long as you cooperate in that situation women are well motivated to treat any given man in your culture as a potential rapist - because barring further info they are.

Well, let's take it a step further and assume that every man is a potential murderer, arsonist, thief, etc. There are many evil people in our society, yet we don't project the worst persona on every man we meet. It's incredible that such an attitude is justified.

 

[milkweed]

If there’s a female accompanying them, I’m more comfortable, but he was alone. So, I turned around and headed back to the truck before he noticed me. I was thinking about the statistics at the time. Thinking that I was being overly cautious. I know this guy who travels the world alone. He prefers it. I’m sure that there are women that do so, too, but I don’t think I could. We’ve always been urged to be much more cautious than men. That’s just how we live. This is part of our culture. Do you think that really small men live like this, too?

Small stature men do try to avoid rowdy situations, at least sometimes. Plenty of locals avoid areas in the twin cities to avoid getting challenged. Even boyfriends walking with me have suggested we 'go around' groups of rowdy men in party areas to avoid potential conflict. My ex was a big man who could handle himself quite well and in Mexico, we went around groups to avoid potential conflict. Comes with "know your audience" I suppose.

 

[Bowser]

Small stature men do try to avoid rowdy situations, at least sometimes. Plenty of locals avoid areas in the twin cities to avoid getting challenged. Even boyfriends walking with me have suggested we 'go around' groups of rowdy men in party areas to avoid potential conflict. My ex was a big man who could handle himself quite well and in Mexico, we went around groups to avoid potential conflict. Comes with "know your audience" I suppose.

Sometimes avoidance is perceived as an invitation.

 

[milkweed]

Sometimes avoidance is perceived as an invitation.

Yes it is. You are right about that. Something along the lines of showing a predator you have a weakness...

 

[milkweed]

Yesterday, I took my dog for a walk at the lake. It’s a rural area. I headed for a spot that I love. It’s quite a ways away from the parking lot. It’s a peninsula, but from a distance, I could see a male figure there. If there’s a female accompanying them, I’m more comfortable, but he was alone. So, I turned around and headed back to the truck before he noticed me. I was thinking about the statistics at the time. Thinking that I was being overly cautious. We’ve always been urged to be much more cautious than men. That’s just how we live. This is part of our culture.

Now just discussion on this topic has affected your life negatively. A spot you love to go... Next time you may want to take note of any other cars license plates. If no other cars, whoever it was lives walking distance to your spot.

Take your walk but note the description of the person. Just in case. Looking a potential attacker over gives them less of an opportunity. You dont appear quite the victim so to speak. You already know to not get close enough to get grabbed, obviously, when you avoided the whole walk itself.

 

[iceaura]

What is it about Saudi Arabia that reflects on OUR culture?

The men talk like you, when justifying their ingrained misogyny. But don't take my word for it - listen for yourself.

Well, let's take it a step further and assume that every man is a potential murderer, arsonist, thief, etc. There are many evil people in our society, yet we don't project the worst persona on every man we meet. It's incredible that such an attitude is justified

It isn't. Such an attitude doesn't exist - that's you "taking it a step farther" and entering your daydream world.

Now that you're back, a return to the topic is in order.

Comes with "know your audience" I suppose.

Exactly. And women in the US do, pretty much, know their culture. So this is common, as well as good, advice:

Take your walk but note the description of the person. Just in case. Looking a potential attacker over gives them less of an opportunity. You dont appear quite the victim so to speak. You already know to not get close enough to get grabbed, obviously, when you avoided the whole walk itself.

Because the idea that the culture would not allow a rape-inclined man to set himself up for opportunity is of course an alien, almost incomprehensible notion - for starters, there are too many such men, too large a fraction of the population, to control in that manner.

 

[pjdude1219]

want to know what rape culture is. its when you try and prosecute a rape and the first attempt at defense is labeling the victim promiscuous. when we put the onus of not being raped on the victim and not the perpetrator.

 

[pjdude1219]

That was my concern, yes - as I said, unkind. You obviously have some problems processing the posts here. But I've decided you are probably just a miserable specimen of "sane" humanity, and getting you to send yourself up like this is a good thing to do - it erodes the legitimacy of your opinions in these matters, which are widely shared by people who maybe haven't recognized what they look like made explicit, or what the support for them actually is.

i do not know why you insist on engage him as if she has any intention of good faith debate. he is either a troll or suffering from a delusional personality with a tendency to view oneself has a martyr. from the first he has attacked people for there preceived crime of being liberal. your not going to manage anything productive so why continue to allow him to stroke her ego and feel important?

 

[Secular Sanity]

want to know what rape culture is. its when you try and prosecute a rape and the first attempt at defense is labeling the victim promiscuous. when we put the onus of not being raped on the victim and not the perpetrator.

Um...we have rape shield laws. You can be a prostitute and still win your case.

And that might be the problem. We perpetuate the notion that men are sexual predators, virtually convicting every man on the street. If rape culture exists, it's exists in our heads.

But, Bowser, earlier, I posted the new hashtag that's been circulating around.

After The Sexual Harassment of A 12-Year-Old Girl, Women Speak Out With #PrimeiroAssedio

There is a new hashtag out. It’s #Primeiroassedio, which translates as “first harassment.”

This, I think is something that every woman has experienced. I was 12, and at the county fair when a grown man slapped me on the ass. I was wearing shorts. He slapped me so hard that it welted part of my leg.

I've had a few other close calls and uncomfortable situations in my lifetime. I love hiking. I've had a man expose himself and masturbate out in the woods. I usually carry a gun, but you can't really shoot someone for masturbating. I was able to get to help, though. The police officers found him hiding in a tree. He was arrested and deported.

 

[pjdude1219]

Um...we have rape shield laws. You can be a prostitute and still win your case.

think about that for a second. we needed to make laws about it. you don't make laws to try and stop things that are not happening. look how in many instances women who say they have been raped are lying until proven truthful.

 

[Randwolf]

Not sure what to say about this but it seems relevant. In some way, shape or form...


Twerking woman ... faces 10 years

Sexual harassment by either gender should not be tolerated - but I'm not sure ten years in prison would be appropriate. Not that she will actually receive that sentence...