What is "Rape Culture"?

[Tiassa]

I'll just put Maurice Chevalier and Perry Como↱ on the table―

Thank Heaven for little girls, for little girls get bigger every day! Thank Heaven for little girls, they grow up in the most delightful way! Those little eyes so helpless and appealing, one day will flash and send you crashing through the ceiling. Thank Heaven for little girls! Thank Heaven for them all! No matter where, no matter who, for without them what would little boys do? Thank Heaven for little girls!​

―and slip out stage right with naught but a whisper.

Kaiju pajamas.

 

[billvon]

My home has been burglarized once, my car stolen once, my car rummaged through twice. I don't consider it a theft culture . . . .

Imagine if we treated theft like rape.
"Are you sure you didn't lead him to think it was OK to steal your car? Maybe you sent the wrong signals."
"Well, what were you wearing? Don't you think you could have worn something less steal-y?"
"He has such a promising future; do you really want to ruin his life just because someone made a mistake?"
"Well, how many times have you had your car stolen before? I mean, I can understand his mistake if it's a common thing with you."
"Maybe you just gave him the car and then you changed your mind after you decided you didn't like him."
"If you cry 'stolen car' you are going to get a bad reputation."
"Did you try to fight him off, or did you sorta imply it was OK for him to steal it by remaining quiet?"
"Besides, he has a car already. Why would he steal yours? Your story makes no sense."

 

[Tiassa]

What would we call a "carslut"?

I mean, you know. What if he likes "having his car stolen"?

It's true, also, that pretty much every society does, indeed, have a theft culture, though I couldn't connect the dots as easily between the old tricks for scoring free long distance to, say, auto theft or bank robbery, except perhaps to postulate an obvious link in a poverty sub-classification overlapping to an unknown degree with general financial distress. But yeah, between corporate culture, rebel culture, and the diverse spectrum of everyday stealing, there is some manner of justification linking these outlooks and behaviors. I just am not familiar enough with the literature to provide even a thumbnail sketch.

 

[Tiassa]

¿Really?

​

I mean ... you know ... I mean ....

A holiday advertisement by Bloomingdale's that encourages drink spiking was trending heavily on social media on Thursday with some critics saying the image promotes date rape.

The ad, which was released in Bloomingdale's 2015 holiday catalog and was meant to advertise Rebecca Minkoff merchandise, features a woman looking away and laughing as a young man looks at her suggestively. The text reads: "Spike your best friend's eggnog when they're not looking."

The luxury department store owned by Macy's Inc apologized for the 'inappropriate' eggnog advertisement on Tuesday.

"In reflection of recent feedback, the copy we used in our recent catalog was inappropriate and in poor taste,” a spokesperson said in a statement. “Bloomingdale’s sincerely apologizes for this error in judgment."

(Fares↱)​

Oh, come on!

You did not ....

I mean ... what the fuck?

How?

How?
____________________

Notes:

Fares, Melissa. "Bloomingdale's 'spiked eggnog' ad sparks outrage on social media". Reuters. 12 November 2015. Reuters.com. 12 November 2015. http://reut.rs/1QzzVCI

 

[milkweed]

Bowser,

Now watch the video in Post 23 and see how its related to/defines the "rape culture". LoL.

 

[Secular Sanity]

Well, what were you wearing? Don't you think you could have worn something less steal-y?

I think that women are way more critical about a female’s attire than men. If there’s an attractive woman wearing revealing clothing, she is viewed as a threat. Most women will attack her character and try to label her as sexually promiscuous. Cuts out the competition.

The luxury department store owned by Macy's Inc apologized for the 'inappropriate' eggnog advertisement on Tuesday.

Ah, damn it, this would have been good for my cross sex friendship topic.

 

[milkweed]

Ah, damn it, this would have been good for my cross sex friendship topic.

Some may think hes looking at her seductively. Me, I am thinking he doesnt think shes funny and hes the one who needs a drink to get through the party.

 

[tali89]

tali89: I'd like to know how anyone can say with certainty that there is a 'rape culture' when no-one can even agree on how many rapes occur


iceaura: That question, sincerely asked, is proof of the existence of rape culture - the questioner belongs to one.

It appears as if you're trying to distract us from the fact that you can't provide a reliable estimate of the risk of women being raped in whatever area you claim has a rape culture. How can we know if rape is a pressing issue if you can't provide us with an objective measure of it, and an explanation of why the risk is indicative of a 'rape culture'? In fact, you haven't even bothered to explain where in the world you feel rape culture exists. There's very little objective thought or hard data in support of your supposition, it's all speculation and emotion.

Those outside of a rape culture have no real problem recognizing it.

Yet people have been disagreeing that a rape culture exists in this very thread. Since they can't recognize it, then by your own logic one mustn't exist, right?

US prisons often harbor rape cultures, right? Do you have to count the rapes accurately to know this?

It has been established that the incidence of rape among men in penitentiary's is higher than men in the general population, which is indicative that there are cultural issues in play in prisons that increase the risk of rape. If the risk of rape were *lower* in penitentiary's than in the general population, it would be pretty hard to argue that a rape culture existed.

If it is possible to get into an argument over whether some completely and accurately described act was actually a rape or not,

So you're acknowledging that whether a rape occurred isn't a black and white situation, but a grey area where an accusation of rape may not actually have been a genuine rape.

If there are cultural norms or established, even named, social customs by which some people accept degradation and diminution of their lives as a precaution against being raped, you have a rape culture.

What degradation and diminution are you referring to?

jokes about rape and other casual references are common,

I've never heard anyone joke about rape. I have heard numerous jokes about the Holocaust though. Does that mean we live in an anti-Semitic genocide culture?

 

[tali89]

But you do regard the cultures that threaten you with serious and dangerous theft,

The data posted by Secular Sanity suggests that the risk of theft and robbery (theft while being threatened) is much higher than that of rape. People are also expected to take precautions to reduce their risk of being stolen from, and are sometimes assigned partial blame for the crime if they don't (eg. why did you leave your door unlocked, why were you at home alone). Does that mean the U.S lives in a theft culture?

More importantly, why is the risk of rape emphasized in the U.S in comparison to theft, when theft occurs far more frequently? Well, one obvious explanation is that rape is a far more traumatic crime than theft or robbery, and it is regarded as socially taboo, so of course there is going to be more agonizing over the risk even if it's lower than that of other crimes. However, I'd argue that there is also an element of 'rape hysteria'. It is in the interest of certain parties to over-exaggerate the risk of rape, demonize men, confer women with a victim status and cause friction between the genders.

And an outside observer does not see your own culture's ordinary conversation and public discourse larded with robbery jokes or featuring discussions about whether a local teenage boy's unauthorized acquisition of his unwilling neighbor's car was a "legitimate theft" (by contrast, your culture's most esteemed political representatives have been observed making rape jokes from the podium, and being re-elected anyway.

But you previously said that "Those outside of a rape culture have no real problem recognizing it." Now you are claiming that outside observers aren't in a position to experience the elements that demonstrate a rape culture. Make up your mind.

 

[Secular Sanity]

It is in the interest of certain parties to over-exaggerate the risk of rape, demonize men, confer women with a victim status and cause friction between the genders.

Well, men do take up too much space on the trains, though. Man oh man, that Elliot Rodger really fucked everything all up, didn’t he? Maybe the term “rape culture” is a distortion of Western reality, but the world…is a whole 'nother ball game! This true story was really sad.

Difret

It was actually outlawed in the 50’s, but wasn’t enforced.

The film chronicles a legal-precedent setting court case that outlawed the kidnapping of child brides in Ethiopia. It tells the story of a 14-year-old girl, Hirut Assefa (based on Aberash Bekele), who is kidnapped on her way home from school and subsequently grabs a rifle and tries to escape, but ends up shooting her would-be husband. In her village, the practice of abduction into marriage is common and one of Ethiopia's oldest traditions. Meaza Ashenafi, the founder of the Ethiopian Women Lawyers Association, arrives from the city to have her team represent Hirut and argue that she acted in self-defense.

 

[origin]

More importantly, why is the risk of rape emphasized in the U.S in comparison to theft, when theft occurs far more frequently?

Gee, that's a tough one. Would you rather rather be over powered and have you pants ripped off and have someone penetrate you anally until climax or have your wallet stolen. Hmmm....

 

[Secular Sanity]

Gee, that's a tough one. Would you rather rather be over powered and have you pants ripped off and have someone penetrate you anally until climax or have your wallet stolen. Hmmm....

Origin, I think that you zeroed in on that sentence because Tali89 answered his/her own question in the very next sentence.

Well, one obvious explanation is that rape is a far more traumatic crime than theft or robbery, and it is regarded as socially taboo, so of course there is going to be more agonizing over the risk even if it's lower than that of other crimes.

 

[tali89]

Origin, I think that you zeroed in on that sentence because Tali89 answered his/her own question in very next sentence.

Don't worry, I'm used to people quoting and responding to my posts without first reading them while paying attention. It's a common theme on this forum, with the behavior stemming from senior members and moderators, who should really know better.

 

[pjdude1219]

Don't worry, I'm used to people quoting and responding to my posts without first reading them while paying attention. It's a common theme on this forum, with the behavior stemming from senior members and moderators, who should really know better.

people read your posts and understand them just fine. you just don't seem to get your own posts and how they look to decent people. more dishonesty and playing the victim from you.

 

[origin]

Origin, I think that you zeroed in on that sentence because Tali89 answered his/her own question in the very next sentence.

Just posting the question is ludicrous.

 

[tali89]

Just posting the question is ludicrous.

Not really. After all, certain posters are claiming that since women fear being raped in certain cultures, that is proof of rape culture. I'm simply arguing that just because something is feared, doesn't mean it's overly prevalent or culturally acceptable. People also fear plane crashes and terrorist attacks, despite the risk of both being very low, and neither being culturally acceptable.

 

[iceaura]

How can we know if rape is a pressing issue if you can't provide us with an objective measure of it, and an explanation of why the risk is indicative of a 'rape culture'? - -

Nobody but you is trying to make the frequency of rape the determining factor in whether or not a rape culture exists. I have specifically denied its relevance, and called you out for using the issue to bullshit the thread. Why are you doing that?

In fact, you haven't even bothered to explain where in the world you feel rape culture exists.

I've mentioned a couple of obvious places, such as your home town with you in it. I've also posted a list of characteristics one can use to identify such places for oneself.

Does that mean the U.S lives in a theft culture?

Gibberish. What are you trying to say?

"Those outside of a rape culture have no real problem recognizing it."
Yet people have been disagreeing that a rape culture exists in this very thread. Since they can't recognize it, then by your own logic one mustn't exist, right?

Uh, no, wrong. To put it gently.

People are also expected to take precautions to reduce their risk of being stolen from, and are sometimes assigned partial blame for the crime if they don't (eg. why did you leave your door unlocked, why were you at home alone). Does that mean the U.S lives in a theft culture?

You have no trouble recognizing theft cultures - gangs and crime syndicates and organized criminals and the communities who receive and protect them - when you see them.

Where, exactly, did you run across someone being blamed for being robbed because they were home alone?

The victim being home when robbed, in my community, leads to more blame for the robber rather than less. The crime is taken more seriously by the police, and is more likely to lead to prosecution and serious penalty.

"If it is possible to get into an argument over whether some completely and accurately described act was actually a rape or not, - "
So you're acknowledging that whether a rape occurred isn't a black and white situation, but a grey area where an accusation of rape may not actually have been a genuine rape.

In your culture that's standard, yes - not only regarding unsupported accusation, but completely and accurately described acts. That's one way we know you live in a rape culture.

I've never heard anyone joke about rape

The fact that such a claim is obviously false, and everyone who reads it knows that it is false, is hereby entered into the evidence.

But you previously said that "Those outside of a rape culture have no real problem recognizing it." Now you are claiming that outside observers aren't in a position to experience the elements that demonstrate a rape culture.

No, I'm not. I'm claiming that your rape culture is as obvious to outside observers as the theft culture of organized crime and gangs is to you.

After all, certain posters are claiming that since women fear being raped in certain cultures, that is proof of rape culture.

Nobody is claiming that.

 

[tali89]

Nobody but you is trying to make the frequency of rape the determining factor in whether or not a rape culture exists.

Even though it wasn't me who posted the studies which attempted to determine the frequency of rape in the United States? I'm far from the only poster discussing the frequency of rape in the United States, and you yourself made that observation in a previous post (where you demanded participants stop discussing the frequency of rape). Yet now you're misrepresenting me as being the only one who has discussed it. Why are you doing that?

I have specifically denied its relevance,

So? Just because you deny the relevance of something, doesn't mean that it isn't relevant. You aren't the sole authority when it comes to determining relevancy, as much as you would like to believe you are.

I've mentioned a couple of obvious places, such as your home town with you in it.

My home town? Where do you think that is? Oh wait, let me guess, you don't think that's relevant. As I observed previously, facts and statistics aren't important to you. Instead, you base your ideology on feelings and assumptions.

tali said:
Does that mean the U.S lives in a theft culture?

iceaura: Gibberish. What are you trying to say?

Try reading the explanation I gave immediately before that one sentence of mine you quoted above. Or are you going to deny the relevance of the explanation I gave to the one sentence of mine you took out of context?

You have no trouble recognizing theft cultures - gangs and crime syndicates and organized criminals and the communities who receive and protect them - when you see them.

So you have gangs and crime syndicates of rapists roving the streets where you live? You have safe-houses where gangs of men gather to rape women, under the protection of corrupt police and officials? And such phenomenon are common? Where on earth do you live?

By the way, I notice you've ignored my observation that we expect people to take measures to reduce the risk of being stolen from. Let me guess, you don't think that's relevant.

The victim being home when robbed, in my community, leads to more blame for the robber rather than less.

Convicted rapists aren't blamed for raping individuals? Is that why convicted rapists are imprisoned, and treated like scum by even fellow prisoners? Oh, sorry, I guess you don't feel that's relevant either.

The crime is taken more seriously by the police

How on earth would you know how seriously the police in my hometown regard rape, when you don't even know where I live? Do you have some sort of scientific study showing that police treat the crime of theft more seriously than rape?

, and is more likely to lead to prosecution and serious penalty.

People who are convicted of theft receive longer prison sentences than people who rape? Can you show me the data for this?

tali said:
"Those outside of a rape culture have no real problem recognizing it."
Yet people have been disagreeing that a rape culture exists in this very thread. Since they can't recognize it, then by your own logic one mustn't exist, right?

Iceaura: Uh, no, wrong. To put it gently.

You previously claimed that anyone living outside of a rape culture have no real problem recognizing it, yet since particular participants in this thread can't see a rape culture, then it mustn't exist. That's your logic, not mine.

tali said:
I've never heard anyone joke about rape

iceaura: The fact that such a claim is obviously false, and everyone who reads it knows that it is false, is hereby entered into the evidence.

So now you're more of an authority on what I have heard than I am? Boy, this just gets better and better.

And by the way, I notice that you failed to address my observation that people make jokes about the Holocaust. By your own logic, that means I live in an anti-Semitic Holocaust culture, right?

tali said:
But you previously said that "Those outside of a rape culture have no real problem recognizing it." Now you are claiming that outside observers aren't in a position to experience the elements that demonstrate a rape culture.
iceaura: No, I'm not. I'm claiming that your rape culture is as obvious to outside observers as the theft culture of organized crime and gangs is to you.

You initially claimed that, but then stated that outside observers don't see and experience all of the elements that make up a rape culture. Do I need to quote your own words back to you?

tali said:

After all, certain posters are claiming that since women fear being raped in certain cultures, that is proof of rape culture.​

iceaura: Nobody is claiming that.

You cited the fear of being raped as evidence of rape culture. Again, do I need to quote your own words back to you?

 

[iceaura]

So? Just because you deny the relevance of something, doesn't mean that it isn't relevant.

It does mean that I didn't say it was relevant. I said it wasn't. That is the opposite of saying it was.

So now you're more of an authority on what I have heard than I am?

I and most readers. When you make claims that silly, the inference is unavoidable. And we have further evidence of your authority, in the form of what you think you have and haven't read - as follows:

"I've mentioned a couple of obvious places, such as your home town with you in it."
My home town? Where do you think that is?

Doesn't matter. Wherever it is, there you are.

You previously claimed that anyone living outside of a rape culture have no real problem recognizing it, yet since particular participants in this thread can't see a rape culture, then it mustn't exist. That's your logic, not mine.

The first claim is recognizably from me, slightly (but tellingly) altered. The part after the word "yet" is from you, not me.

You initially claimed that, but then stated that outside observers don't see and experience all of the elements that make up a rape culture. Do I need to quote your own words back to you?

Hmmm.
- - -
At that point another possibility occurred to me, and I appeal - look at this exchange, my words in quotes:

"The victim being home when robbed, in my community, leads to more blame for the robber rather than less."
Convicted rapists aren't blamed for raping individuals? - - -
"The crime is taken more seriously by the police "
How on earth would you know how seriously the police in my hometown regard rape, when you don't even know where I live?
", and is more likely to lead to prosecution and serious penalty."
People who are convicted of theft receive longer prison sentences than people who rape? Can you show me the data for this?

Ok, jury: is this mental illness, and I should lay off?

 

[billvon]

Not really. After all, certain posters are claiming that since women fear being raped in certain cultures, that is proof of rape culture.

No, that alone hardly makes a culture into a rape culture. That's just one (small) part of it.

I'm simply arguing that just because something is feared, doesn't mean it's overly prevalent or culturally acceptable.

Agreed. There has to be more to it than that.

People also fear plane crashes and terrorist attacks, despite the risk of both being very low . . . .

Right. We don't have a "plane crash" culture. But if parents told their kids to take parachutes on airplanes because they crash all the time, and almost one in five people out of a given group of people had been in a plane crash, and it's something that was spoken about/joked about incessantly, and dealing with them was a staple of our mental health programs - then you'd have a good argument that we do have a culture that, at least partly, revolves around plane crashes.