Bowser said:
Where the heck do you live? If someone were to make such a joke around the company I keep, they would be shunned.
Two points stand out:
(1) You keep dodging the point with inaccurate retorts.
(2) Your standards are entirely unreliable.
To consider the present dodge,
Iceaura↑ reminded:
"A rape culture exists whenever the source of the threat of rape is an ordinary and accepted part of the structure of one's society, jokes about rape and other casual references are common, norms of behavior include recognition of the ordinary possibility of being raped by members of the culture which includes those norms, etc.
As with lynching, "disappearances", etc, it makes no difference whatsoever how many rapes are actually accomplished. Maybe none, maybe just threats and punishments for not taking precautions, and jokes about one's potential victim status."
Your response↑, that you have
"Never heard a good rape joke in my time", is actually irrelevant.
Iceaura reminded↑:
"Nobody said they were good jokes. Just that they were common, ordinary, culturally normal jokes. The people who tell them are not pariahs, excluded from normal society."
To which
you replied↑:
"Where the heck do you live? If someone were to make such a joke around the company I keep, they would be shunned."
It's pretty useless, but reflects your entire participation in this thread:
(1) Inquire about rape culture, claiming to be unfamiliar with the idea.
(2) Ignore what people tell you in response.
(3) Deploy chauvinist talking points to denounce rape culture.
(4) Refuse to take the issue seriously by pretending innocent stupidity so great that if a child did it we would send them to their room in order to prevent them from further denigrating themselves.
But it's also true that you point ot one of the problems of rape culture. Your question about Iceaura's community makes the point. If someone were to make such a joke as to horrify the judgment of rape culture advocates, they probably would find themselves shunned, because by the point one offends rape culture advocates with rape jokes, it's a pretty rude
donkey punch punch line.
An example in application: The staff recently had a round trying to figure out what to do about a crude joke. There were, in fact, two crude jokes involved. The first crude joke was a door-hit-ass joke; a traditional version running back to saloon times involves leaving promptly, such that the swinging door does not come back and spank one's ass while they stand there indecisively. There is a doorknob variation that is a slut joke. So what happens if one invokes the slut variation in a manner that defines the slut according to forced anal penetration? Being raped does not make one a slut.
There are a number of ways to address these issues, and we must always be prepared for the
"What rape joke?" response. And we did see a couple variations on that in the discussion, but in the end the question remained:
How does one remove forced penetration from a forced penetration joke?
When we stop and think about the mechanics of the joke, the elements are plainly visible. The problem people have with recognizing the rape joke is generally personal; we're giving up a lot of jokes we used to take for granted. But the thing is that we don't necessarily have to give them all up forever; rather, it's a matter of how to address ourselves and our presentation honestly.
Seriously, I live in a society where it is not entirely inappropriate to hear Neil Cavuto ask Ben Carson about credibility and biographies and wonder aloud, "Geez, Neil, why don't'cha just blow him next time?" Would I make the same joke about Maria Bartiromo softballing Marco Rubio so badly that even the Florida senator laughed? See, that's the thing; right now I wouldn't. Maybe someday, but right now, no. Part of this is another aspect of rape culture that, in terms of discussing the concept with you, would appear to be a year or so away if we went forward in good faith right now; part of it has to do with the inherent empowerment imbalance of sexual acts. Part of it has to do with the question of slut-shaming. And part of it has to do with the perpetual sexual harassment of women in our society. Functionally speaking, a fellatio implication has tremendously different meaning depending on whether the cocksucker is male or female. And perhaps someday this won't be true, anymore. But that's the thing, in order to get to the place where these jokes really are generally harmless, men have to give up the harm, and for the moment they just don't seem to want to do that.
Would
you shun someone for making an alien anal probe joke?
As Iceaura explained, nobody said they were good jokes.
In terms of rape culture, Bowser, think of it this way: The guy who made the joke? The rape implicaiton blew by him; didn't even see it. And that is what it is. He's generally a good person, as far as I can tell, but as
I've said before↑, we all play our part. And it's true, we play our parts even when we don't want to. Exorcising rape culture from our praxis is not something we might expect to be easy.
But if we find ourselves wondering how one excludes forced penetration from a forced penetration joke, well, at that point we're looking at an effect of rape culture. That is to say, if the punch line is that one is a slut because one has been anally raped, and another doesn't see rape about forced anal penetration, then we might take a moment to wonder why.
Thus, you might be exactly correct in your assessment that,
"If someone were to make such a joke around the company I keep, they would be shunned"; the challenge is what qualifies, in your view, as "such a joke". Or, as I have
noted before↱:
If a continuing rape crisis besieging the women we know—our mothers and daughters and sisters and friends—is what it takes for you to be able to crack a crude, locker-room joke without feeling like you're oppressing women, what the hell is wrong with you?
And that particular blog post is actually behind schedule; the
cartoon↱ it discusses was on its second iteration at the time; Barry Deutsch has attempted a third.
And part of what he's trying to capture by reworking the punch line is, in fact, one of the most apparent effects of rape culture. The end of the setup, and all three punch lines:
Dude 1: ... And if she passively "gives in" to sex, check that things are cool before going any further. Why is that so hard?
Dude 2: Because!
Dude 1: Because what?
Dude 2: [1] Because then I might not get to fuck her! [2] Because it's impossible that anything I've done was rape! [3] Because she might say, "No"!
In any case, a basic difference seems apparent. One can certainly look at Dude 2 and see the problem with his behavior. To the other, one can also look at Dude 2 and sympathize.
Where are you at on that, Bowser? Deutsch's variable punch line shifts between future plans, past acts, and the immediate question, and it's a difficult choice to pick the "right" one; meanwhile, it's a hell of a discussion, and as brutal as you or I might find the implications in any of thsoe punch lines, neither can we complain. To wit, if we don't like seeing men portrayed that way, how do we address the question? Do we pridefully reject the reality facing other human beings, in which regardless of how you see yourself, people still have to deal with these behaviors and attitudes in society? That would seem to implicitly condone and license such behaviors and attitudes, which in turn contributes to rape culture. We might, though, acknowledge the reality that these behaviors and attitudes exist in society with sufficient gravity to influence outcomes.
But if one aids and abets―gives comfort to―rape culture, one pretty much gives up any complaint about the brutal implications perceived. As I've noted before:
If a continuing rape crisis besieging the women we know—our mothers and daughters and sisters and friends—is what it takes for you to be able to crack a crude, locker-room joke without feeling like you're oppressing women, what the hell is wrong with you?
Would you shun John McCain? Or is the one about the woman wanting the gorilla's number after it rapes her not enough of a rape joke?
____________________
Notes:
Detusch, Barry. "Rape and Consent ― Affirmative Consent Explained". Ampersand. 9 October 2014. LeftyCartoons.com. 12 November 2015. http://bit.ly/1s1oRB9