What is "Rape Culture"?

[tali89]

The video reposted by tali89 above was extensively discussed in the following thread:

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/street-harrassment.142928/

There's also a follow-up thread to that one:

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/sexual-harassment.152471/

Readers will note from tali89's writings in both threads that tali89 is a misogynist. Nothing he says on the topic of sexual harassment should be taken seriously.

Readers should note that after James was exposed as intellectually dishonest and prejudiced against men, he keeps trying to redeem himself by picking arguments with me. I'll re-post this picture, as it is illustrative of James R's mentality.

[Moderator edit: The image can be found in tali89's earlier post, here:

http://sciforums.com/threads/what-is-rape-culture.153010/page-11#post-3341280]

 

[James R]

Here are some elements of rape culture, according to the following article:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/what-is-rape-culture

• Anyone can be a rapist. The defining narrative of rape culture is that a rape happens when a woman is randomly attacked by a stranger hiding in the bushes. And this happens. But it’s not the only way it happens, and that narrative can obscure the many other spaces where rape occurs. Most rapes are committed by ordinary men, men who have friends and families, men who may even have done great or admirable things with their lives. Nice guys rape, and they do it often.
• "Gray rape". The idea of a sexual encounter that falls “somewhere between consent and denial,” where “both parties are unsure of who wanted what.” And its prevalence is largely a result of lack of knowledge surrounding what constitutes consent.
• "No means yes". The romantic idea of the “chase” is an old one. .... And while it might seem not inherently malicious — “Blurred Lines” or “Baby, It’s Cold Outside,” for instance — an important piece in tackling rape culture is acknowledging the importance of personal space and decision-making.
• Victim blaming. This is where the attention focuses on what a rape victim supposedly did wrong rather than on the offender's criminal actions. For example, the victim might be blamed for being drunk when the rape occurred.
• "Slut shaming". This involves focussing on a woman being publically humiliated (for example by a public sex act carried out by a man without her consent). As in victim blaming, the offender's actions are ignored and the focus is on the "shame" of the woman involved.
• Street harassment. This is the kind of thing exemplified by the video that tali89 keeps proudly trotting out (see a couple of posts above this one). Cat calling and other forms of verbal and physical harassment are a daily occurrence for women. They create an atmosphere of violence and disempowerment for women. Men such as tali89 have no problem with unsolicited sexual advanced directed towards strangers. It is pointed out that a man who ignores a woman's "no" in a non-sexual setting, such as on the street, is more likely to ignore it in a sexual setting.
• Rape prevention myths. This is the idea that women have the responsibility to avoid being raped, combined with the myth that if they dress in a certain way or behave in a certain way they won't be raped. This takes the focus away from where it should be, namely the responsibility of men not to rape.
• Rape jokes. This is the idea that it's ok to laugh at sexual violence.
• The 'Friend Zone'. This is the idea that sex should be a reward for a man being a good guy, and that a woman who puts a good guy into the "friend zone" is not giving him what he deserves. This portrays women as prizes or rewards for men if they are "nice".
  
• Pick up artists. This is a subculture in which women are viewed only as sexual objects to be obtained. The idea is that women can be "gamed" into having sex with men whose only interest in them is as sexual conquests.
• Fear of reporting of rape. Women are often reticent to report rape because they feel there is a “lack of proof,” or because they “fear of reprisal by the assailant, fear of being treated with hostility by the police, and anticipation that the police would not believe the incident was serious enough and/or would not want to be bothered with the incident”. And this is only the tip of the iceberg.
• "False rape accusations". This is the idea that many women make up rapes because to get revenge on men they dislike, or perhaps because they simply regret sleeping with the man. This one is common with "men's rights" advocates.
• The "promising futures" narrative. This is the idea that it is wrong to accuse young men of rape because such accusations might damage their reputations and adversely impact on their "promising futures". On the flip-side is the media tendency to report on the personalities or social standing of rape victims - e.g. what their neighbours or colleagues thought of them. But why is the character of the victim important?
• Male rape. The idea that male rape doesn't exist. Alternatively, the idea that male victims bear a special responsibility to prevent their own rapes and therefore bear a special kind of stigma when they "fail" to do so.
• Lack of attention to rape in minority communities. This is the acceptance and general lack of media coverage of rape among minorities. Why does this deserve less attention than other rapes?

 

[James R]

Readers should note that after James was exposed as intellectually dishonest and prejudiced against men, he keeps trying to redeem himself by picking arguments with me.

You are knowingly telling lies, which is a breach of our site rules. Moreover, you are insulting another member of the forum and trying to throw out bait to get an angry reaction. That is, of course, classic troll behaviour and it is unacceptable.

When you return from your latest ban, you should apologise to me for your lies. I expect you will not do so, because you have no integrity. Nevertheless, somebody has to attempt to teach you basic manners.

 

[Bells]

Here are a number of statements in the video that are simple greetings which the author included as evidence of sexual harassment:

0:14 - "How are you doing today?"

0:36: "How are you this morning?"

0:40: "Have a nice evening"

1.11: "How are you doing?"

1.36: "What's up miss?"

1.38: "How are you doing?"

Indeed, there are far more instances of innocent greetings and remarks being misrepresented as street harassment in that video than I originally remembered. One thing is for certain though, and that is that iceaura has been caught out in a bald faced lie. Given that iceaura condescended to attempting to use the issue of mental illness to ridicule me, I doubt he will apologize for his dishonest behavior.

You completely missed the context of what constitutes sexual harassment. Certainly, if one just looked at a comment like "how are you doing?" without context of how these words were being uttered, one could argue that they are just innocent. But when you look at these comments in context, it becomes much less innocent and more problematic. For example, they do not say these things to men simply walking by. They target only women, the words and the manner and context of their use become threatening.

They weren't being friendly.

They were being sleazy.

You do understand this, yes? Or is something wrong that you are incapable of recognising this?

I'll put it this way, since you keep bring your ex boyfriend and his views up in these discussion. Get him to go and stand on a corner of a busy road with a lot of pedestrians. Then get him to utter those words to men as they pass by. I would be willing to bet that he would refuse to do it. Or if you really think these are just friendly greetings and there is nothing wrong with them, get him to stand outside a primary school and say friendly and innocent words like, "what's up little girl?" to girls as they walk to or from school. After all, these are innocent greetings, uttered by strangers, there should be nothing wrong, right? Let us know how long he lasts before a parent, staff or police approach him.

Unless of course you think sleazy is normal and innocent behaviour, perhaps because this is what you are used to, in which case, please seek help.

 

[wellwisher]

Being a male in American culture, I don't quite understand the term "Rape Culture." Never in any of my experiences with other males did we discuss the virtues of rape. Sure, we talked about beautiful girls and their sexual appeal, but never did we discuss raping any of them.

So, is this just a general term used to define male attitudes towards woman? I understand that some woman feel intimidated by men, and maybe this is simply their view of male stature in general. If it is, I find it derogatory. But I really don't know its intent when used.

Anybody care to explain this term?

The term rape culture, is based on a generic liberal tactic that is used by all it diversity voting blocks, to help recruit members with emotions, who are promised special concessions at the expense those they will try to scam, if they run the scam. Victim status is important in terms of leveraging extras from big Government and then taking away liberties from the accused; opposing party. We have the rape culture for the ladies, the hate culture for the homosexuals, the intolerant culture for immigrants, the denier culture for man made global warming and environmental enthusiasts, etc. Everyone who is not liberal, becomes a specialty bully culture, that needs to be regulated and scammed.

The tactic is useful in that it helps to create its own reality. For example, you, personally, can't see or understand what the rape culture is or means, because it does appear to exist in your piece reality. You can't understand the term, based on your observable data. However, you are trying to understand what you might be missing. You are being stereo-typed as being one of the many, you don't see, so you will accept responsibility for something you did not do. Then you can be shaken down. The propaganda wing of the Democratic party, or the mainstream media, will fixate on a few data points in an attempt to misrepresent the full data set, in favor each liberal voting block.

One of the tricks used is based on language games. Did you even notice that only men are called sexist by the liberal dual standard definition. If a woman does the same thing, such as calling all men create a rapist culture, this is not called sexist. If one man whistle at a pretty girl all men are cavemen. The dual standard is designed, by liberals, so all liberal voting groups are exempt from their own rules of conduct and behavior. This allows them to scam the system.

What men need to do is play the victim game, too, but in a more controlled rational way to beat the scammers at their own games We can say we live in a nagging culture, where the women nag too much. This is not true of all women but we can fixate of a couple of data points.

Nagging is form of verbal abuse; domestic and social violence, that will not be allowed in the work place, and this needs to be treated the same way PC liberals say we should deal with any words that make people feel uncomfortable. Rape culture are sexist words that are very offensive to me. I am amped out by these words, and I have no self control over my feelings of hurt, like I am in a baby. I am a victim and need a new regulation and some freebies to compensate for my pain.

The dual standard of women not being called sexist, for such stereo typing, also makes me uncomfortable and I am too neurotic to shake to off, therefore this is hate speech.

The question becomes what is the social impact of the dual standard, where liberals special interests groups are not called for their behavior, with the same standard applied to their adversary groups? For example, only whites can be racists by definition. If people of color do the same things, this is not racist.

The reasonable person will see the dual standard, and will try to be fair. This means be good and expect the other side to be good, or if they other side is scamming and getting away with it, you do the same thing. This perpetuates racism. The liberals are creating division and perpetuating problem. The solution is one standard for all, so the scammers for all the demographics can be dealt with, and the good people from all demographic are not penalized.

 

[James R]

I'd like to know how anyone can say with certainty that there is a 'rape culture' when no-one can even agree on how many rapes occur.

If tali89 had any idea what the term "rape culture" refers to, he would know that having a rape culture doesn't depend on exactly how many rapes occur. See the information and definitions I posted above, for examples.

Perhaps those who argue that a 'rape culture' exists should first come to some consensus on the risk of a woman being raped, and explain what level of risk is indicative of a 'rape culture'.

In other words, tali89 would prefer to postpone all discussion of a potential "rape culture" for as long as possible. He won't even entertain the idea until he is presented with watertight statistics on all kinds of things. And I'm sure he'll happily keep moving those goalposts to make sure that he never has to consider the actual issue of the thread.

 

[James R]

The data posted by Secular Sanity suggests that the risk of theft and robbery (theft while being threatened) is much higher than that of rape. People are also expected to take precautions to reduce their risk of being stolen from, and are sometimes assigned partial blame for the crime if they don't (eg. why did you leave your door unlocked, why were you at home alone). Does that mean the U.S lives in a theft culture?

Well, let's think about that with reference to the list I posted above.

Some questions to ask yourself:

• Are accused thieves regularly described as great guys with bright futures who just made one little mistake that one time?
• Are thieves most often known to their victims, being close friends or romantic partners, or family members?
• Is the excuse of "mixed messages" commonly given in cases of theft? "Well, you left your phone on the table in the cafe, so how could the thief know you didn't want him to take it? You practically offered it to him."
• Is the victim often blamed for theft? "It was really your fault the guy took your phone because you left it where he could reach it. You were inviting him to take it. It's not his fault that he took you up on your implied offer."
• Are photos regularly posted on Instagram and Facebook for people to laugh at the victims of theft or to say how morally "loose" they are?
• Is it acceptable practice to yell out on the street to a stranger "Hey, nice phone! How about you give me that phone?" Is it socially acceptable to walk along beside that stranger in a threatening manner for 5 minutes or so, making obvious reaches towards his/her phone?
• Is it a common idea that a person can avoid ever being a victim of theft if they take appropriate precautions? If they don't keep their phone in a locked safe most of the time, is it their fault if it is stolen? It would be silly to take your phone to a cafe, wouldn't it? That would be inviting theft.
• Is it a common idea that you should give your friend your phone as a reward for being a nice person, and if you don't then you're not "putting out" as you rightfully should to give your friend what he or she deserves? Is your nice friend entitled to take your stuff because he or she is nice?
  
• It is socially and legally acceptable to con people into giving up their property? Is there a "theft artist" subculture that thinks this is ok? Is such a culture generally thought to be a good thing?
  
• Are people afraid to report theft of their belongings? Do they fear they won't have enough proof, or be taken seriously by the police, for example?
• Is there a perception that some people cry "theft!" to take revenge on people they just don't like, or because they regret giving that person property as a gift some time in the past?
• Is the character of a victim of theft considered relevant in judging whether theft occurred, or how serious it was?
• Are some people considered less important as victims of theft than others?

More importantly, why is the risk of rape emphasized in the U.S in comparison to theft, when theft occurs far more frequently?

It the risk of rape emphasized more than the risk of theft in the U.S.? I'd like to see statistics on that.

.... I'd argue that there is also an element of 'rape hysteria'. It is in the interest of certain parties to over-exaggerate the risk of rape, demonize men, confer women with a victim status and cause friction between the genders.

Who benefits from over-exaggerating the risk of rape? I hope tali89 will explain when he gets back. It's probably "liberals". Because, you know, reasons.

 

[James R]

For instance, you [iceaura] still need to support your following claims....

iceaura has already responded to this, but I'd like to add some comments.

- That rape jokes are evidence of rape culture, whereas Holocaust jokes are not evidence of an anti-Semitic genocide culture.

Rape jokes trivialise sexual violence. If they are not evidence of rape culture, I don't know what would be. I don't think tali89 actually has a clue about what the term "rape culture" actually means.

- That I'm lying when I claimed I haven't heard anyone in my culture tell a rape joke, and explain how your assertion is relevant to me eating hamburgers.

iceaura's not-so-subtle point was, of course, that a person living in a western nation (e.g. the US) would be about as unlikely to have ever heard a rape joke as to have never eaten a hamburger. And yes, we can nit-pick around this and talk about vegetarians etc., but vegetarians know that hamburgers exist and are commonly eaten in western nations. See the point? It's not hard, is it?

- Clarify who is qualified to identify a rape culture

Even a person like tali89, who likes to paint himself as a naive fool who doesn't know what a hamburger is, could conceivably become qualified. Basically, all it takes is knowing and understanding the definition. Then you look at the society in question and see whether it fits the definition.

- You need to explain why the prevalence of rape is irrelevant when attempting to determine whether a rape culture exists

Again, one only needs to know the definition and understand it. Not too hard for most.

- You need to provide evidence of organized gangs of rapists in places you deem to be rape culture, as well as evidence that officials systematically protect them.

We're not talking about "gang rape culture" here. Just rape culture. See the definitions and explanations above for more information.

- You need to demonstrate that theft is taken more seriously than rape by the police, and that convicted thieves are given longer convictions than rapists.

Perhaps when tali89 returns he might like to suggest how one would go about demonstrating that. What methodology would one use to answer the first part of the question?

Of course, part of the problem if you're in a rape culture is that things rarely get to the stage of a criminal conviction. In fact, suggesting that rapes don't "count" unless somebody is convicted is probably a good example of rape culture in itself.

 

[James R]

wellwisher:

The term rape culture, is based on a generic liberal tactic ...

Why am I not surprised that you're jumping on tali89's "liberals are evil" bandwagon? *yawn*

...that is used by all it diversity voting blocks, to help recruit members with emotions, who are promised special concessions at the expense those they will try to scam, if they run the scam.

In what context does this promising of special concessions in return for "running the scam" of rape culture occur? What particular special concessions are offered, by whom and to whom?

Do you think that the term "rape culture" is primarily an appeal to emotion rather than fact?

Victim status is important in terms of leveraging extras from big Government and then taking away liberties from the accused; opposing party. We have the rape culture for the ladies, the hate culture for the homosexuals, the intolerant culture for immigrants, the denier culture for man made global warming and environmental enthusiasts, etc. Everyone who is not liberal, becomes a specialty bully culture, that needs to be regulated and scammed.

Is it your claim, then, that rape doesn't really exist, or at least isn't important?

Do you claim that homophobia is not real or important?
Do you claim that xenophobia is not real or important?
Do you claim that global warming is not real or important?

That's quite a list you have there. Perhaps you'd like to tell me something you think is real and important. Can you think of any social issue that would fit the bill, or is all of society a scam? Or just "liberal" society, perhaps?

The tactic is useful in that it helps to create its own reality. For example, you, personally, can't see or understand what the rape culture is or means, because it does appear to exist in your piece reality. You can't understand the term, based on your observable data. However, you are trying to understand what you might be missing. You are being stereo-typed as being one of the many, you don't see, so you will accept responsibility for something you did not do. Then you can be shaken down. The propaganda wing of the Democratic party, or the mainstream media, will fixate on a few data points in an attempt to misrepresent the full data set, in favor each liberal voting block.

Who are these people accepting responsibility for things they did not do? Can you give us a few real-world examples, please?

One of the tricks used is based on language games. Did you even notice that only men are called sexist by the liberal dual standard definition.

Can you give an example in which it would not be a liberal dual-standard thing to call a man sexist? Or does the mere calling make it liberal and dual-standard in and of itself?

If a woman does the same thing, such as calling all men create a rapist culture, this is not called sexist.

I don't think you know what sexism is. Please go and look it up. A dictionary should suffice.

If one man whistle at a pretty girl all men are cavemen. The dual standard is designed, by liberals, so all liberal voting groups are exempt from their own rules of conduct and behavior. This allows them to scam the system.

So your claim is that liberals consider it is ok for other liberals to whistle at pretty girls, but not ok for non-liberals to do so. That's quite a bizarre claim, although fairly typical for you, admittedly. Got anything to support it?

What men need to do is play the victim game, too, but in a more controlled rational way to beat the scammers at their own games We can say we live in a nagging culture, where the women nag too much. This is not true of all women but we can fixate of a couple of data points.

This is what you advocate. Hmm... Grab that dictionary and look up "sexism" again.

Nagging is form of verbal abuse; domestic and social violence, that will not be allowed in the work place, and this needs to be treated the same way PC liberals say we should deal with any words that make people feel uncomfortable. Rape culture are sexist words that are very offensive to me. I am amped out by these words, and I have no self control over my feelings of hurt, like I am in a baby. I am a victim and need a new regulation and some freebies to compensate for my pain.

Nagging is a form of verbal abuse. It is generally not tolerated in the workplace and it should not be accepted.

What is it that offends you about the idea of rape culture exactly? You should be able to clearly explain why it is offensive. Otherwise, you really are like the baby you claim to be - just having a whinge for no reason.

The dual standard of women not being called sexist, for such stereo typing, also makes me uncomfortable and I am too neurotic to shake to off, therefore this is hate speech.

Some women are sexist, no doubt. I see no evidence of a dual standard. Perhaps you can explain it for me.

For example, only whites can be racists by definition. If people of color do the same things, this is not racist.

Is that true, or just your perception as a white man?

The liberals are creating division and perpetuating problem. The solution is one standard for all, so the scammers for all the demographics can be dealt with, and the good people from all demographic are not penalized.

What one standard would you recommend regarding each of the following, then:
- rape
- hate speech
- racial discrimination
- sexual discrimination
- nagging
- whistling at pretty girls

Do tell.

 

[Bowser]

The term rape culture, is based on a generic liberal tactic that is used by all it diversity voting blocks, to help recruit members with emotions, who are promised special concessions at the expense those they will try to scam, if they run the scam. Victim status is important in terms of leveraging extras from big Government and then taking away liberties from the accused; opposing party. We have the rape culture for the ladies, the hate culture for the homosexuals, the intolerant culture for immigrants, the denier culture for man made global warming and environmental enthusiasts, etc. Everyone who is not liberal, becomes a specialty bully culture, that needs to be regulated and scammed.

That does seem to be the agenda...politically. I do think people actually believe in the victim line, but I don't think we can paint all with the same brush. As I had mentioned in an earlier thread, I believe there are two types of feminist, those who are independent and working hard towards their success, and those who are perpetual victims and demanding some kind of concession. I know and work with women who are very independent and very hardworking. I respect them.

The tactic is useful in that it helps to create its own reality. For example, you, personally, can't see or understand what the rape culture is or means, because it does appear to exist in your piece reality. You can't understand the term, based on your observable data. However, you are trying to understand what you might be missing. You are being stereo-typed as being one of the many, you don't see, so you will accept responsibility for something you did not do. Then you can be shaken down. The propaganda wing of the Democratic party, or the mainstream media, will fixate on a few data points in an attempt to misrepresent the full data set, in favor each liberal voting block.

It's easy to align an entire group of people into a stereotypical type. I've done it myself. So I can forgive others when they do the same. As for "Rape Culture," it just doesn't jive with my experience, so I can't buy into it.

One of the tricks used is based on language games. Did you even notice that only men are called sexist by the liberal dual standard definition. If a woman does the same thing, such as calling all men create a rapist culture, this is not called sexist. If one man whistle at a pretty girl all men are cavemen. The dual standard is designed, by liberals, so all liberal voting groups are exempt from their own rules of conduct and behavior. This allows them to scam the system.

I'm not certain what they hope to achieve, but I like the term "language games."

What men need to do is play the victim game, too, but in a more controlled rational way to beat the scammers at their own games We can say we live in a nagging culture, where the women nag too much. This is not true of all women but we can fixate of a couple of data points.

I'm at peace with the women in my life. The only place where I see this stuff playing out is online.

Nagging is form of verbal abuse; domestic and social violence, that will not be allowed in the work place, and this needs to be treated the same way PC liberals say we should deal with any words that make people feel uncomfortable. Rape culture are sexist words that are very offensive to me. I am amped out by these words, and I have no self control over my feelings of hurt, like I am in a baby. I am a victim and need a new regulation and some freebies to compensate for my pain.

I might take issue with the term, but I'm not hurt by it. I would call it sexist, yet if they want to call us all potential rapists, so be it. Doesn't change my opinion in the least.

The dual standard of women not being called sexist, for such stereo typing, also makes me uncomfortable and I am too neurotic to shake to off, therefore this is hate speech.

Yeah, I guess if we wanted to ban discussion on the issue, we could call it "hate speech." I'm actually thankful for an open dialogue. It gives me a view on how some women perceive men.

The question becomes what is the social impact of the dual standard, where liberals special interests groups are not called for their behavior, with the same standard applied to their adversary groups? For example, only whites can be racists by definition. If people of color do the same things, this is not racist.

That's an interesting point. I have seen arguments that stated some people cannot be racist or sexist by virtue of their race/gender. But then again, let them talk. I have no problem with people expressing their views.

The reasonable person will see the dual standard, and will try to be fair. This means be good and expect the other side to be good, or if they other side is scamming and getting away with it, you do the same thing. This perpetuates racism. The liberals are creating division and perpetuating problem. The solution is one standard for all, so the scammers for all the demographics can be dealt with, and the good people from all demographic are not penalized.

I have no problem with people expressing their views. My problem is when it enters society as an institution. Let's say, in the legal system, where a man is presumed guilty of rape for no better reason than his gender. That's when it reaches the unreasonable and becomes dangerous.

 

[parmalee]

I have no problem with people expressing their views. My problem is when it enters society as an institution. Let's say, in the legal system, where a man is presumed guilty of rape for no better reason than his gender. That's when it reaches the unreasonable and becomes dangerous.

Actually, that entire post was pretty freakin' wacked, but I'll just focus on this last bit. I'll make this easy for you:

Cite just one single instance in which a "man (has been) presumed guilty of rape for no better reason than his gender," by our legal system.

 

[milkweed]

It's easy to align an entire group of people into a stereotypical type. I've done it myself. So I can forgive others when they do the same. As for "Rape Culture," it just doesn't jive with my experience, so I can't buy into it.

And rather than congratulations on your experience, an experience which is the alleged the goal of the believers in 'rape culture', you are maligned for not having that life experience. How dare you be different. How dare you not meet the expectations.

Interesting psychology there for sure.

 

[Tiassa]

So I see that Tiassa has chosen to take up the torch after iceaura failed to substantiate his conjecture, as if they were some sort of bizarre tag team.

Uh huh. You mean I'm tag teaming with the guy who called me a foul little git↱ because he wants domestic abusers and stalkers―some of the most dangerous criminals in our society―to be armed to the teeth?

Good one.

Iceaura stated that I lived in a rape culture, not that I 'most likely' lived in a rape culture. That's a very subtle shifting of the goalposts right there, but it hasn't gone unnoticed.

Okay, let's settle this: What culture do you live in?

Because the odds that you're not living in a rape culture are so astronomically low that "indeed" works well enough.

Then again, speaking of moving goalposts, there is still the question of which rape culture you want anyone to answer for. As we've seen, neither you, Bowser, nor Milkweed are decent enough to attend what the people you criticize actually say about rape culture.

So, which rape culture? The one, say, I describe? Or a fallacy? Given your ridiculous rhetoric, it's a valid question.

Meanwhile, there are seven billion people on this planet; it is not absolutely impossible that someone, somewhere, has managed to escape rape culture. But if you want us to believe you're the one, you're going to have to prove it, and your attempted defense of rape culture pretty much belies any proof you might provide.

Another shifting of the goalposts. I asked iceaura to explain why rape jokes are evidence of rape culture, whereas Holocaust jokes are not evidence of an anti-Semitic genocide culture.

It's a Godwin violation. Additionally, Holocaust deniers are roundly denounced. This is important, because compared to societal attitudes toward rape, our rejection of the Holocaust and its ideology is pretty damn clear.

Nonetheless, most Holocaust jokes do, in fact, represent some manner of anti-Semitism. And I say most because I will not put the effort into trying to write one that isn't.

Two in the front, two in the back, and the rest in the ashtray? Yeah, definitely grotesque; anti-Semitic simply because it's not funny. But I learned that one in fourth grade, and while it is certainly anti-Semitic, it is not evidence of an ongoing genocide culture in 1983; thirty-two years later, American culture retains some anti-Semitism, but the genocidal atttiudes are rather quite isolated and disdained.

I'll also note that instead of providing a cogent answer, you have answered a question with a question. I will also observe that Jews are still harassed even in today's society. Indeed, Jews are still being assaulted and killed simply for being Jews.

You really aren't capable of figuring it out?

When someone attacks a Jew for being a Jew, and somebody else stands up and makes excuses, that other is roundly denounced. When someone rapes a woman, and someone else stands up and makes excuses, a significantly influential portion of the American population will back those excuses.

Now, then: Show me an American prosecutor who will refuse to prosecute a confessed murder of a Jew who was killed for being Jewish, explaining that the Jew contributed to the murder and the good people in the prosescutor's jurisdiction are not capable of convicting a confessed murder.

Next: Show me an American jury in the last twenty years that has acquitted the murder of a Jew ostensibly committed because that victim was Jewish, because they felt the Jew's clothes were asking that he or she be murdered.

When I tell you that I've never heard a rape joke told in my local culture ...

... you are providing an example of why self-reporting studies are generally considered less reliable. As I noted↗ in a related thread, "It's kind of like rape jokes. If you set a low enough bar, everyone and everything passes." I also recently reiterated the point↑ in this thread, including an example of what it looks like in India.

The other problem is that you set yourself up to prove a negative.

In this case, you can affirmatively inform us that you are, in fact, deaf, and then it becomes much more believable that you've never heard a rape joke in your local culture.

Interestingly, it was just last night I happened to to be rolling through a recent dispute I witnessed regarding misogyny, a woman happened to accuse a man about rape jokes and personal insults. The response was an astoundingly obvious and simplistic political maneuver in which part of his response was that a rape joke is not a gay joke.

Like I said, if you set a lowe enough bar, everyone and everything passes.

And you set yourself a pretty low bar, virtually subterranean.

See, one of your problems is that you are perpetually arguing negative assertions; to the one, you cannot prove that you've never heard a rape joke in your local culture, and; to the other, if you set a low enough bar, nothing is a rape joke, therefore you've never heard a rape joke in your local culture.

Calling someone a 'rape advocate' is a serious accusation ....

Rape advocacy is seriously dangerous.

I'm simply asking a poster to support their claims with evidence.

You mean by moving the goalposts↑? Like I asked, Tali, which rape culture are you referring to? The one I describe, or the one you set a subterranean bar for?

Which 'people' are you referring to? Do you have a poll to support your claim, or should I just dismiss this as yet another of your unsupported assertions?

Largely I'm referring to this community; I apologize for presuming you at least intelligent enough to figure that part out―I shan't repeat the error in the future.

Take a look around, Tali. Who is actually supporting you? Right now it seems not even your fellow rape advocates want anything to do with you.

Which social scientists? The ones inside the rape culture, or the ones outside of it?

What does that even mean?

Are you also claiming that I was the only one discussing the prevalence of rape in the U.S? If so, how can you justify that claim when it wasn't me who posted the rape statistics in the first place?

What does that even mean?

One of the problems with your delusional rants is that eventually you stop making sense.

It comes from when iceaura stated: "You have no trouble recognizing theft cultures - gangs and crime syndicates and organized criminals and the communities who receive and protect them - when you see them."

I'd like for him (or any of his tag team members) to demonstrate that something similar exists for rape in the societies you claim to have a 'rape culture'

How can anyone demonstrate anything for someone who refuses those demonstrations? After all, no matter how many examples we provide, who is acknowledging them, even enough to argue against them? See #141↑ above, please, which contains several examples of what we're on about.

Or is that just too fucking much to ask of you?

I'd like to pause for a moment to point something out to the audience. Iceaura initially made the claim that "The crime (theft) is taken more seriously (than theft) by the police" and "(theft) is more likely to lead to prosecution and serious penalty (than rape)." At this point I asked iceaura to support this assertion with evidence. Note that I was qualified what sort of evidence would be appropriate: Statistical data that people convicted of theft receive longer prison sentences than rapists. That's a pretty reasonable request, right? It's not like such data isn't easily accessible from credible sources, and it would be pretty convincing evidence that a culture takes theft more seriously than rape.

It's called setting your own bar, or building your own movable goalposts.

What have I gotten in return?

More than you have demonstrated yourself capable of giving.

And more than custom suggests someone as dishonest as you deserves.

To those points, if you really, really need a disability accommodation to excuse your behavior, just go ahead and say so. As to what custom suggests someone like you dserves? Well, in that case it's worth noting that I am, as you assert, a leftist, and we tend to disdain the chest-thumping notions of what people deserve.

Do anecdotes and stories told to you by a friend of a friend at the pub count as reliable evidence on sciforums?

Would a woman who says she's been sexually harassed in a club need to provide you some sort of scientific data in order to prove the point? And what data would that be?

And what should women do to satisfy you?

See, you won't even tell us that. All you have is digression, egotism, and fallacy. And pretty much everyone sees through this.

Here, let's try this: Bowser? Milkweed? Would either of you like to step up and help your fellow advocate?

 

[Secular Sanity]

"It's understandable that a mainstream organization like RAINN would want to avoid using feminist jargon in its publications and press releases, in no small part because people who haven't encountered a term like "rape culture" might take it the wrong way. But going out of your way to attack the idea in a report that's supposed to be focused on solving the same problem that the phrase was created to address, and to do so while not even understanding what it is you're denouncing, is just embarrassing."

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_facto...ture_in_its_recommendations_to_the_white.html

Well, we now know that the phrase was created to address prison rape. So, not even understanding what you’re broadcasting, is just embarrassing, right?

We have one side saying that the rape statics are exaggerated. That the term "rape culture" itself is an exaggeration. We do not live in a rape culture.

Luke Gittos, the author of "Why 'Rape Culture' is a Dangerous Myth", believes that the conviction rate has gone down because we are charging more cases with weaker evidence. He feels that there is a real danger, if we continue to perpetrate the idea that if women come forward with a rape allegation that they’re not going to be taken seriously.

The other side states that this debate isn’t about the statics. It’s about the extent to which our culture reinforces the kind of behaviors and other types of sexual offences that might provoke rape.

When you return from your latest ban, you should apologise to me for your lies. I expect you will not do so, because you have no integrity. Nevertheless, somebody has to attempt to teach you basic manners.

I would appreciate it if James would be so kind, as to un-ban Tali89 so that we can continue. Most of our moderators have a bad habit of talking at, and about banned members, who are unable to respond. What do you say, James, will you, please?

 

[milkweed]

"It's understandable that a mainstream organization like RAINN would want to avoid using feminist jargon in its publications and press releases, in no small part because people who haven't encountered a term like "rape culture" might take it the wrong way. But going out of your way to attack the idea in a report that's supposed to be focused on solving the same problem that the phrase was created to address, and to do so while not even understanding what it is you're denouncing, is just embarrassing."

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_facto...ture_in_its_recommendations_to_the_white.html

Well, it is Slate that misses the mark here. From the article:

The bill addressing sexual assault in the military that passed in December demonstrates the impact that "rape culture" as a concept has had.

Problem is RAINN does address this issue in their statement on 'rape culture'. Here it is:

While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important to not lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.

A systemic barrier is not culture. As I understand it, the motive behind (for example) systemic barriers for women reporting rape on campus was not doubt rape happens but the effect on enrollment (tuition money) if women decided not to go to that uni based on rape/sexual assault statistics.

Rape tests languishing in evidence rooms. Again the systemic barrier was not 'rape culture' it was money; as in test costs and manpower to finish the case.

Pieces of the puzzle. We also have Prosecutors who weigh in on whether the evidence will support a conviction.

 

[milkweed]

Rape Culture:

Apophenia is the human tendency to perceive meaningful patterns within random data.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia

 

[Tiassa]

For the Record

So, not even understanding what you’re broadcasting, is just embarrassing, right?

For whatever it may or may not be worth to you, our neighbor has tried this stunt before↱, back in July.

And now here we are, undertaking the issue again, and he gives no regard to anything that was said before.

I'll be getting back to this when I have time; several circumstances in a holding pattern, quite literally, for weeks have suddenly stacked up so that as soon as I finish eating, I need to walk out the door and do all of them at once. You know how it goes sometimes: A'ight, I'll be back in a couple hours. Or a couple days. Fuck it, tellyawhat, I'll be back. Whenever.

Still, though, that appears to have taken place during your recent hiatus; it may or may not be of use to you.

 

[milkweed]

For whatever it may or may not be worth to you, our neighbor has tried this stunt before↱, back in July.

And now here we are, undertaking the issue again, and he gives no regard to anything that was said before.

I'll be getting back to this when I have time; several circumstances in a holding pattern, quite literally, for weeks have suddenly stacked up so that as soon as I finish eating, I need to walk out the door and do all of them at once. You know how it goes sometimes: A'ight, I'll be back in a couple hours. Or a couple days. Fuck it, tellyawhat, I'll be back. Whenever.

Apophenia is the human tendency to perceive meaningful patterns within random data.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia

Now I have to get ready for work, work that involves being away from a computer. I dont get paid to sit and bs my way through life.

And its fucking snowing.

 

[parmalee]

I have no problem with people expressing their views. My problem is when it enters society as an institution. Let's say, in the legal system, where a man is presumed guilty of rape for no better reason than his gender. That's when it reaches the unreasonable and becomes dangerous.

Actually, you're not going to come up with an example for such, as I requested in a previous post--I guarantee this. So, nevermind that.

But consider this statement, along with a few other curious claims I recall--like having never heard a rape joke, or having seen only four or five rapes ever depicted in film and television. Lest you watch television and film only perhaps once or twice a year, and you simply do not read any news stories, and you live in the middle of nowhere and engage with no other persons or your "culture" in any substantive manner, I'm not buying it. I don't think anyone is buying this.

Incidentally, I do, in fact, live in the middle of nowhere and I only interact (if you can even call it that) with two other humans; yet, I'm not so blissfully unaware as you seem to be. Just recently, I reviewed all 14 episodes of The Office (the U.K. one, but close enough) and I can't even count how many rape jokes I heard on that show.

But if we assume otherwise--that is, that you've seen more than one movie or television program in the past year, and you engage with your culture in some manner--then it should become clear why the term "rape advocacy" is appropriate here. Really, just from the quoted bit above alone. Just think about it for a moment. Does one really need to explain this?

 

[Secular Sanity]

A'ight, I'll be back in a couple hours. Or a couple days. Fuck it, tellyawhat, I'll be back. Whenever.

Now I have to get ready for work, work that involves being away from a computer. I dont get paid to sit and bs my way through life.

And its fucking snowing.

Me, too. My son is coming home on leave from the Marines. I'll be busy for awhile. Like Tiassa, I'll be back...whenever. Perhaps, James will un-ban Tali89 by then. I did ask him nicely, didn't I?