What is "Rape Culture"?

Secular Sanity said:
Um...99.9%, where did you get that number? Anomaly of just rape? Do you want to classify it, break it down for Bowser? Are you only referring to non-consensual penetration, sexual contact, harassment, or what exactly?
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1. I made it up
2. I didnt say Just Rape.
3. The thread is Rape Culture.

I have no doubt you were slapped on the butt as described when you were 12. That is assault, sexual or not. We dont get to hit people. But thats not Rape. Not even close and I recognize the difference.

But heres a question for you regarding something you said earlier.
When I was letting the tailgate down, a man with two larger dogs were returning from their walk. His dogs were off the leash and came running up to my truck. I asked him if they were friendly. He said, very. It’s a beautiful day. Enjoy your walk. I said, thanks. I headed for a spot that I love. It’s quite a ways away from the parking lot. It’s a peninsula, but from a distance, I could see a male figure there. If there’s a female accompanying them, I’m more comfortable, but he was alone. So, I turned around and headed back to the truck before he noticed me.
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You encounter a man in a parking lot that could have grabbed you and shoved you into his car/truck but dont display the same concern you do for a man in the distance who seems to be alone.

If the man in the distance would have been throwing a ball for a dog, would you have felt OK? And if not, why didnt the man in the parking lot, close enough to grab you instill this fear?

Note, I am not saying you were right or wrong in what-ever decisions you made that day. I have (and still do) avoid certain situations that I perceive at potentially harmful. But what stereotype do you use? Its obviously not just being a guy cuz a guy with dogs wasnt as threatening as his dogs were. It was a guy in the distance, while you were thinking about statistics (or this thread, whatever). So is this rape culture fluid? Depends on your mood? Depends on kittens and puppies? :)
 
Milkweed said:
Projecting a life experience onto the whole, forgetting that 99.9% of their remaining life experience does not encompass the anomaly of rape. Presenting it as a Rape Culture rather than an abhorrent deviation from the norm. Dragging everyone down to the lowest denominator, declaring (like some black knight) None Shall Pass.
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One of the notable aspects about this kind of #WhatAboutTheMen temper tantrum is that it ignores the obvious.

Infinite Prevention Advocacy↑, as I have already noted in this thread, advises women to suspect all men.

Now, many of us have a problem with this as a human rights and quality of life issue because IPA functionally advises women to plan their daily lives around being sexually assaulted. However, this doesn't seem to mean much to the men who ignore this point in order to turn around and complain about rape culture, inventing straw man definitions to burn like sosobra, because, you know, #WhatAboutTheMen? Because it's #NotAllMen.

Or, more directly: Remember ladies, suspect all men, but #NotAllMen, especially #JustNotMe.

And, you know, it probably doesn't help to have other men out there reminding women that, "Yeah, men will try, but that's a male prerogative to try."↑

I mean, you see the effect, right? Man says sexual harassment is male prerogative, another man says it's not fair for women to view men as potential sexual harassers. Well, you know, until after the fact, and then what, more IPA and wondering why she didn't see it coming and take more steps to protect herself against the men what about the men―waaaah!―you can't look at men like that it's not fair to the men?

No, seriously. It's just a giant circle of stupidity you and Bowser are trying to run people in. One of the obvious markers is the immediate transformation of this thread from a pretense of inquiry in ignorance to ignoring the responses in order to lament a straw man the querient himself put on the table.

To borrow a line, it's an insult to our gender and culture.

Okay? If you don't give a fuck what you're doing to women, then stop and think about the men.

If you don't like certain implications, don't give everyone else a reason to attend them.
 
milkweed said:
I have no doubt you were slapped on the butt as described when you were 12. That is assault, sexual or not. We dont get to hit people. But thats not Rape. Not even close and I recognize the difference.
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Sexual battery is the actual non-consensual contact, while assault is force, or the threat of force to establish the contact. It was sexual assault.

milkweed said:
You encounter a man in a parking lot that could have grabbed you and shoved you into his car/truck but dont display the same concern you do for a man in the distance who seems to be alone.

If the man in the distance would have been throwing a ball for a dog, would you have felt OK? And if not, why didnt the man in the parking lot, close enough to grab you instill this fear?

Note, I am not saying you were right or wrong in what-ever decisions you made that day. I have (and still do) avoid certain situations that I perceive at potentially harmful. But what stereotype do you use? Its obviously not just being a guy cuz a guy with dogs wasnt as threatening as his dogs were. It was a guy in the distance, while you were thinking about statistics (or this thread, whatever). So is this rape culture fluid? Depends on your mood? Depends on kittens and puppies?
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The guy in the parking lot was a lot older and smaller. I was right next to my truck with weapons and there were other people nearby. He wasn't close enough to grab me. His dog was, but not him. The statics didn’t influence my decision to leave. The male figure did. I was thinking about the statics on the way back. When I was thinking about them, I was wondering if I should turn around, but I decided that the reward wasn’t worth the risk.

Ted Bundy's fake injuries worked for him, right? A dog or a kitten, may work for others.
 
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Secular Sanity said:
The guy in the parking lot was a lot older and smaller. I was right next to my truck with weapons and there were other people nearby. He wasn't close enough to grab me. His dog was, but not him. The statics didn’t influence my decision to leave. The male figure did. I was thinking about the statics on the way back. When I was thinking about them, I was wondering if I should turn around, but I decided that the reward wasn’t worth the risk.

Ted Bundy's fake injuries worked for him, right? A dog or a kitten, may work for others.
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Ah, your earlier post did not say other people were around. Makes more sense then.

Ted Bundy was a human anomaly and not a cultural artifact.
 
Tiassa said:
One of the notable aspects about this kind of #WhatAboutTheMen temper tantrum is that it ignores the obvious.

Infinite Prevention Advocacy↑, as I have already noted in this thread, advises women to suspect all men.
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But does not provide a Rape Culture exists. Your unsubstantiated claim.

I lock my doors when I leave my house. Doesnt mean a burglary culture surrounds me. Burglars exist, but its not a cultural phenomena
I avoid certain places, doesnt mean a strong arm robbery culture exists. Strong arm robbery exists but not a culture.

Bikers went through this, with the 1%ers. Doesnt mean all bikers are knuckle-dragging brutes and most dont like it when you compare them with the Banditos or Hells Angels. Its well... Stupid. Like your 'rape culture'.
 
milkweed said:
I lock my doors when I leave my house. Doesnt mean a burglary culture surrounds me. Burglars exist, but its not a cultural phenomena.
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Right. Now, if you taught your kids to always lock their doors, and burglary was so common that it was an integral part of TV shows, jokes, how people are raised etc - then you would be living in a burglary culture.

I avoid certain places, doesnt mean a strong arm robbery culture exists. Strong arm robbery exists but not a culture.
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If you have to avoid certain places all the time, and it affects your life, and your example is common, then yes - you would be living in a culture of fear.
 
This is my problem. If, for example, I had several bad experiences with black people, and if I were to take into account the disproportionate number of blacks within our penal system, am I justified in believing all blacks are potential criminals? Of course, I would need neglect all those blacks I've known who were really cool people, the many times I walked through the predominate black neighborhood without trouble, and all the blacks with whom I worked.
 
Bowser said:
This is my problem. If, for example, I had several bad experiences with black people, and if I were to take into account the disproportionate number of blacks within our penal system, am I justified in believing all blacks are potential criminals?
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No. But if you really believed that, and most people were like you, then you'd be living in a racist culture.
 
This and That

Milkweed said:
But does not provide a Rape Culture exists. Your unsubstantiated claim.
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No amount of observable reality will convince a dedicated rape advocate such as yourself.

Honestly, dude, if you're just going to sit there and whack a straw man like that, you're only stroking your ego.

The fact that you have to invent a phantom is significant.

Your aid and comfort to the beliefs and behaviors within a societal culture contributing to rape is glaring.

I have no idea why you would wish to portray yourself as dangerous, but thanks for the warning.

† † †​

Bowser said:
If, for example, I had several bad experiences with black people, and if I were to take into account the disproportionate number of blacks within our penal system, am I justified in believing all blacks are potential criminals?
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And if a black man complaining about racism stands up and tells me that violent crime is a black man's prerogative, yeah, I would probably pause to wonder if I really, really heard that.

(Update: Revise and extend my remarks, 16 Nov. 2015 10:02 PST)
 
Tiassa said:
"My" assertion of what "rape culture" is happens to be on the record↑. That you refuse to acknowledge this in order to bawl about some whimpering, made-up #WhatAboutTheMen bullshit↑ really ought to be your own problem; it's rude to visit such dysfunction on others.

Get honest. I dare you to even try.
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Yeah, I read your garbage post showing examples of criminals and trying to extrapolate that onto society beliefs. Quiverfull is a fringe aspect of christian belief systems you attempt to portray as a 'cultural belief'. Its belief system is REJECTED by the Majority of christian belief systems.

Every example you post of 'Rape Culture' are fringe elements REJECTED by most, and therefore not culturally acceptable. Your Rape Culture does not exist.
 
​

To: Bowser​


In #4↑ above, I noted a husband's prerogative and wife's duty; in your response (#5↑), you asserted, more generally, "Yeah, men will try, but that's a male prerogative to try."

Apparently, this sentiment we both recall is among "fringe elements REJECTED by most, and therefore not culturally acceptable"↑.

Certainly a phrase about bedfellows occurs to mind, as does a saying about enemies of enemies. But that's all superficial.

Here's a question: We might not agree on the significance and implications of a certain behavior we both recognize, but apparently that's beside the point, because society has roundly "REJECTED" this "fringe" behavior. Tell me sir, are you and I remembering this history wrongly?

I mean, consider the example I mentioned earlier, and let's try it that way.

So a grief counselor is maybe all of five minutes out of having just counseled grief, and a man walks up to her and tells her, "You know, hey, I've been watching you, and you should smile. You just don't look very nice when you're not smiling."

Now, sure, this turns out to be really, really crass in terms of the timing, right? After all, how could he have possibly known, having been watching her, that she had her reasons for not happening to be smiling at that moment. How unfortunate, you know?

But, you know, it's a man's prerogative to try, right?

I mean, regardless of our difference of opinion about the significance of that notion, we both recognize the idea, right? Why wouldn't he give a pretty lady helpful advice? How's he supposed to meet women? Something like that? Fill in the blank?

And, you know, I would think you and I might dispute whether this behavior is acceptable or not, but guess what? It turns out this question "does not exist" because, apparently, the man's prerogative to try is a "fringe" behavior "REJECTED by most, and therefore not culturally acceptable".

To that end, you and I might look at the state of the discourse on this issue, and even attend polling when and where it can be found, and this apparently contentious issue is already settled.

Which, of course, only begs the question: You know, not very nice when she's not smiling, unfortunate timing, and all that.

So ... why would he bother in the first place?

Because his behavior is not at all uncommon.

And why would anyone watch someone else and then say something like that?

If it's not merely because it's a man's prerogative to try, are we dealing with some sort of mental retardation, then, affecting a significant subpopulation of males and inhibiting functional socialization?

I mean, honestly, good news, everybody! The whole thing about a man's prerogative to try is apparently settled.

Here's the bad news, then: What's with all the sexual belligerence?

Or are all the women just makin' it up?

How about 2012, then? Why? No reason; it's just not that long ago and happens to be the date of Zosia Sztykowski's↱ reflection on excuses for street harassment―normalization, compliment, harmlessness, "the One", slut shaming―and the idea that this spectre of harassment looming over women doesn't exist because society has rejected it leaves me wondering if this happened in the last few years.

And for whatever reason the same website, just last year, revived Barry Deutsch's 2010 cartoon↱ about street harassment. But, you know, if this problem, as our neighbor asserts, doesn't exist, what, is this just some evil feminazi conspiracy?

Or is the harassment still happening? Only, you know, just not because of a man's prerogative to try?

I mean, really? You share sympathies with this guy; what the hell is anyone else supposed to make of this? Is the issue supposed to just go away because he says so, or something?
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Notes:

Sztykowski, Zosia. "5 Excuses for Street Harassment We Need To Stop Making…Now". Everyday Feminism. 9 October 2015. EverydayFeminism.com. 16 November 2015. http://bit.ly/1NXcbb2

Deutsch, Barry. "Why We Should Stop Saying Street Harassment Is a Compliment". Everyday Feminism. 15 October 2014. EverydayFeminism.com. http://bit.ly/1kAEL6I
 
Tiassa said:
I mean, consider the example I mentioned earlier, and let's try it that way.

So a RAPE counselor is maybe all of five minutes out of having just counseled a VICTIM, and a man walks up to her and tells her, "You know, hey, I've been watching you, and you should smile. You just don't look very nice when you're not smiling."

Now, sure, this turns out to be really, really crass in terms of the timing, right? After all, how could he have possibly known, having been watching her, that she had her reasons for not happening to be smiling at that moment. How unfortunate, you know?

But, you know, it's a man's prerogative to try, right?

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Notes:

Sztykowski, Zosia. "5 Excuses for Street Harassment We Need To Stop Making…Now". Everyday Feminism. 9 October 2015. EverydayFeminism.com. 16 November 2015. http://bit.ly/1NXcbb2

Deutsch, Barry. "Why We Should Stop Saying Street Harassment Is a Compliment". Everyday Feminism. 15 October 2014. EverydayFeminism.com. http://bit.ly/1kAEL6I
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Really Crass? Uncoth even? Sure but not evidence of a Rape Culture.

Your flimsy examples reflect your poorly positioned declaration.
 
milkweed said:
Really Crass? Uncoth even? Sure but not evidence of a Rape Culture.
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Of course it is. One would need corroboration, evidence that the man is not mentally ill in his culture, not a tolerated whacko - famous for doing and saying wildly inappropriate things, but essentially harmless - but if his behavior is generally acceptable and he suffers no repercussions from engaging in it, if the men in that culture are free to behave like that without consequences, then that's pretty good evidence of a rape culture.

Because if the target has no recourse in their culture, is vulnerable to all that is implied, that kind of behavior is a threat - and not even a veiled one. "Smile - we're watching you, and we think you don't smile enough."

Or to take another tack, suppose the man were less rude, more helpful in his approach: Instead of rudely confronting the woman with his watching the woman, and getting all personal, he were to talk about a topic of mutual interest, like her children. So that he said something like "Your little girl should smile more. I've been watching her, and she looks a lot prettier when she is smiling."
milkweed said:
Projecting a life experience onto the whole, forgetting that 99.9% of their remaining life experience does not encompass the anomaly of rape.
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There's a question:

What percentage of the life of a woman in ordinary US culture is free of the "anomaly" of threatened rape?
 
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Iceaura said:
Because if the target has no recourse in their culture, is vulnerable to all that is implied, that kind of behavior is a threat - and not even a veiled one. "Smile - we're watching you, and we think you don't smile enough."
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Well, there is recourse, which is to make the point, in which case the rape culture that (ahem!) "does not exist" (ahem!) "does not assert itself".

​

Watch the square zero pretense; the way they are fending off the idea of rape culture is to hold its elements separately and in doubt―the one is ill-advised according to the available data, and the other is just plain petulance.

After all, in a world where such behavior is "REJECTED by most, and therefore not culturally acceptable", it shouldn't be so prevalent↱.
____________________

Notes:

Kearl, Holly. Unsafe and Harassed in Public Spaces: National Street Harassment Report. 2014. StopStreetHarassment.org. 16 November 2015. http://bit.ly/1kAULWv

McInerny Purmort, Nora. "My Opinion Doesn't Justify Your Rape Threats". The Huffington Post. 6 November 2015. HuffingtonPost.com. 16 November 2015. http://huff.to/1QkEDnM
 
milkweed said:
Projecting a life experience onto the whole, forgetting that 99.9% of their remaining life experience does not encompass the anomaly of rape.
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99.999% of a wounded soldier's life does not involve getting his legs blown off. But if you told him that they shouldn't dwell on that, because the actual event was only .001% of their life, they would likely be pretty angry at how callous you were.
 
​

This musical time-out is brought to you by Boiled in Lead.

My son John was tall and slim, and he had a leg for every limb, and now he's got no legs at all, they're both shot away with a cannonball. Well were you drunk, or were you blind, to leave your two fine legs behind? It wasn't from walking upon the sea that took your legs from the ground to the knee. I wasn't drunk, and I wasn't blind, to leave my two fine legs behind; 'twas a cannonball on the Fifth of May that took my two fine legs away. All foreign wars I now denounce, 'twixt this King of England or that King of France. I'd rather my legs as they used to be than the King of Spain and his whole navy. For I was tall and I was slim, and I had a leg for every limb. Now I've got no legs at all; you can't win a race with a cannonball.


We now return you to our regular thread in progress.

(Update: Correct hyperlink. 16 Nov. 2015, 17.44 PST)
 
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I don't get it, Tiassa. That was a physics article about measuring the strong force of antimatter. What am I missing?
 
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