What is "Rape Culture"?

[milkweed]

You're about thirteen years late↗.

Nice deflection but warmth is not genetic or chemical as was discussed in my link. And I wasnt late.

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent

Well, you're right that I haven't produced evidence to support your caricature of rape culture.

Rape Culture = Hasty generalization is an informal fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence—essentially making a hasty conclusion without considering all of the variables. In statistics, it may involve basing broad conclusions regarding the statistics of a survey from a small sample group that fails to sufficiently represent an entire population

I just don't agree with you assigning your opinion to other people in order to criticize them. It's fundamentally dishonest.

Fundamentally dishonest = calling anyone who questions/doesnt agree with your position a rape advocate.
But you already know that.

 

[Tiassa]

To: Milkweed​

re: Reality​

I don't know if you think your straw man hate brigade is somehow cute, but just because you say so isn't any proper reason to go pretending reality doesn't exist.

 

[iceaura]

Incidents of localized systemic issues, bad rulings, shoddy police tactics, but they are still localized and often politically or money motivated. Thats not culture.

Sure it is. Why wouldn't patterns of bad rulings, patterns of shoddy police tactics, and systemic issues common to many locales, be regarded as part of the culture of the place?

The truth is I don't watch much television, yet even so, I've seen enough throughout the years to know rape is not a common theme

Joke?

 

[Bowser]

Watch this video with young college kids joking about a rape. It's not very easy to watch.

I'm not saying rape jokes don't exist. However, I believe I would need search for them in order to find evidence. They are not prevalent in my life experience.

 

[Bowser]

Joke?

I'm thinking of the number of times I've seen rape on television: years back when I was a kid there was a television movie with Elizabeth Montgomery, where she was raped and accused the wrong man; Death Wish would be another movie; Can't remember the title, but watched a movie that involved mutants who lived in the Nevada desert; and recently I watched an episode of Game of Thrones that depicted rape.

I can't recall any instance of television viewing where rape was made a joke.

 

[Randwolf]

Joke?

Naa, he's just living life on that river in Egypt.

Start here: TV’s Rape Obsession

TV’s “rape glut” problem is exactly what it sounds like—a barrage of dramatized, over-sexualized, potentially triggering rape plots, all coming to a television set very near you.

And go from there...

 

[Secular Sanity]

I'm not saying rape jokes don't exist. However, I believe I would need search for them in order to find evidence. They are not prevalent in my life experience.

It wasn’t a joke. It was male attitudes towards females and sexual violence. You don't need to search for them. The attitudes are prevalent.

 

[tali89]

So it appears that after James R banned me under a flimsy pretext, a number of liberals have swarmed the thread to stick the boot into me when I couldn't respond. If you ever needed an example of the intellectual cowardice that is commonly seen in the Left, there it is right there.

Anyway, let's see what gems have been offered up by my detractors:

James R:
Here are some elements of rape culture, according to the following article:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/what-is-rape-culture

So now you're resorting to posting summary articles from Buzzfeed of all places. Is Buzzfeed a source of scholarly insight for you? Surely you can exercise some independent thinking by offering up some of your own original thoughts, instead of relying on Buzzfeed?

tali89 said: ?
I'd like to know how anyone can say with certainty that there is a 'rape culture' when no-one can even agree on how many rapes occur.

James R: If tali89 had any idea what the term "rape culture" refers to, he would know that having a rape culture doesn't depend on exactly how many rapes occur. See the information and definitions I posted above, for examples.

So if the risk of rape in a culture is irrelevant to determining whether it is a rape culture, does that mean a society where the risk of rape is 0% can still be a rape culture? Furthermore, if the risk of rape in a particular subsection of society is higher than that of general society, you wouldn't consider that suggestive evidence of a rape culture existing in said subsection of society?

tali89: Perhaps those who argue that a 'rape culture' exists should first come to some consensus on the risk of a woman being raped, and explain what level of risk is indicative of a 'rape culture'.

James R: In other words, tali89 would prefer to postpone all discussion of a potential "rape culture" for as long as possible.

Since I've been discussing whether 'rape culture' exists for a significant portion of this thread, along with other strands of evidence that would be suggestive of one, your claim that I would prefer to postpone discussion of the issue is a demonstrable lie. Don't worry, I neither require nor desire an apology for your dishonesty.

James R: Well, let's think about that with reference to the list I posted above.

Some questions to ask yourself:
Are accused thieves regularly described as great guys with bright futures who just made one little mistake that one time?

Please quantify 'regular' numerically (ie. percentage-wise), and demonstrate that rapists are 'regularly' described as great guys with bright futures. And please stick to analyzing convicted rapists, since 'accused' rapists are assumed innocent until proven guilty in the eyes of the law.

Are thieves most often known to their victims, being close friends or romantic partners, or family members?

Please quantify 'most often' numerically, and then substantiate the above claim in regards to rape.

Is the excuse of "mixed messages" commonly given in cases of theft?

Please quantify 'commonly' numerically, and then show the excuse of 'mixed messages' is 'commonly' given by convicted rapists.

Is the victim often blamed for theft?

Please quantify 'often' numerically, and then demonstrate that rapists are 'often' blamed for their rape.

Are photos regularly posted on Instagram and Facebook for people to laugh at the victims of theft or to say how morally "loose" they are?

Please quantify 'regularly' numerically, and then demonstrate that photos of rape victims are 'regularly' posted on Instagram and Facebook to be laughed at.

Is it socially acceptable to walk along beside that stranger in a threatening manner for 5 minutes or so, making obvious reaches towards his/her phone?

Can you demonstrate that it is socially acceptable to stalk and threaten strangers?

Is it a common idea that a person can avoid ever being a victim of theft if they take appropriate precautions?

Please quantify 'common', and then demonstrate that it is a 'common' idea that a person can avoid ever being raped if they take the appropriate precautions.

I'll stop there in regards to your questions, since I think you already have your hands full with attempting to quantify your vague terms (eg. 'common', 'regularly', 'most often') and substantiating your opinions about rape culture.

tali89: That rape jokes are evidence of rape culture, whereas Holocaust jokes are not evidence of an anti-Semitic genocide culture.

James R: Rape jokes trivialise sexual violence. If they are not evidence of rape culture, I don't know what would be. I don't think tali89 actually has a clue about what the term "rape culture" actually means.

I notice that you avoided my observation that there are jokes about Holocaust, and that according to your logic I must live in an anti-Semitic genocide culture. I'll also point out that you haven't demonstrated that rape jokes are considered 'culturally acceptable'. I'd argue that jokes are told about all sorts of taboo topics in order to push the envelope and get a groan. Dead baby jokes are all over the internet, but that isn't evidence that those people live in a 'dead baby' culture.

James R: iceaura's not-so-subtle point was, of course, that a person living in a western nation (e.g. the US) would be about as unlikely to have ever heard a rape joke as to have never eaten a hamburger.

And as I've already observed, that argument is nothing more than a demonstration of circular logic and the 'No true Scotsman' fallacy. I suggest you go back and re-read the entirety of my posts, instead of cherry-picking what is convenient for you to respond to.

James R: Even a person like tali89, who likes to paint himself as a naive fool who doesn't know what a hamburger is, could conceivably become qualified.

Where did I 'paint myself' as not knowing what a hamburger is? That you'd misrepresent me over something so trivial is mind-boggling. By the way, I notice you're still referring to me as male, even though I've corrected this error of yours a number of times.

tali89: ...need to provide evidence of organized gangs of rapists in places you deem to be rape culture, as well as evidence that officials systematically protect them.

James: We're not talking about "gang rape culture" here. Just rape culture. See the definitions and explanations above for more information.

It was Iceaura who claimed that the organized gangs of rapists (and the officials that systematically protect them) are evidence of rape culture. If you have an issue with that, I suggest you take that up with him. I'm simply asking for evidence to substantiate his claim. Do you have any?

tali89: - You need to demonstrate that theft is taken more seriously than rape by the police, and that convicted thieves are given longer convictions than rapists.

James R: Perhaps when tali89 returns he might like to suggest how one would go about demonstrating that.

Again, I'm not exactly sure why you are asking me. After all, I'm not the one who made the claim that theft is taken more seriously than rape. It rests with Iceaura to substantiate his claim, and I've been kind hearted enough to explain what sort of evidence I would find convincing. The ball is now in his court to find the relevant studies, and determine whether they are methodologically sound. If he can't provide that sort of data, it's only reasonable for him to retract his statement and admit it was nothing more than unsupported conjecture.

 

[tali89]

Tiassa:

Tali89 said:
So I see that Tiassa has chosen to take up the torch after iceaura failed to substantiate his conjecture, as if they were some sort of bizarre tag team.

Tiassa: Uh huh. You mean I'm tag teaming with the guy who called me a foul little git? because he wants domestic abusers and stalkers?some of the most dangerous criminals in our society?to be armed to the teeth?

Good one.

Well, iceaura wimped out of supporting his conjecture, and then you appear and repeat the same nonsense. It's almost as if you guys are reading from the same script. Indeed, it's all rather creepy exactly how hive-mind like the left-wingers on sciforums are. As soon as I'm banned a number of leftists swarm to this thread to pat each other on the back and parrot the same misrepresentations and lies.

Iceaura stated that I lived in a rape culture, not that I 'most likely' lived in a rape culture. That's a very subtle shifting of the goalposts right there, but it hasn't gone unnoticed.
Okay, let's settle this: What culture do you live in?

The very fact that you are asking this question demonstrates that the claim I live in a 'rape culture' is nothing more than conjecture. Thank you for demonstrating how iceaura was being presumptuous in assuming I live in a rape culture.

tali89: Another shifting of the goalposts. I asked iceaura to explain why rape jokes are evidence of rape culture, whereas Holocaust jokes are not evidence of an anti-Semitic genocide culture.

Tiassa: It's a Godwin violation.

I suggest you go and revise what a Godwin violation is. It does not mean what you think it means.

Tiassa: Additionally, Holocaust deniers are roundly denounced.

Rapists aren't roundly denounced? Are rapists given garlands of flowers where you live? In my society they are thrown in jail and treated like the scum of the earth by their fellow prisoners.

Tiassa: Nonetheless, most Holocaust jokes do, in fact, represent some manner of anti-Semitism.

But the existence of such jokes isn't evidence of an anti-Semitic society? How do you reconcile that with your claim that rape jokes are evidence of a rape culture?

Tiassa: When someone rapes a woman, and someone else stands up and makes excuses, a significantly influential portion of the American population will back those excuses.

Please quantify 'significant' numerically (ie. percentage-wise), and then support this claim.

Tiassa: .. you are providing an example of why self-reporting studies are generally considered less reliable.

Is this an admission on your part that studies where rape is self-reported should be considered as less than reliable?

tali89: I'm simply asking a poster to support their claims with evidence.

Tiassa: You mean by moving the goalposts↑? Like I asked, Tali, which rape culture are you referring to?

What goalposts have I moved? I've asked iceaura to support claims that he made. As for what 'rape culture' I'm referring to, that's precisely what I'm asking for iceaura to clarify. I'm not the one arguing that a 'rape culture' exists, so it rests with iceaura and his companions to accurately define what they mean by a 'rape culture', and then provide evidence for its existence.

tali89: Which 'people' are you referring to? Do you have a poll to support your claim, or should I just dismiss this as yet another of your unsupported assertions?

Tiassa: Largely I'm referring to this community; I apologize for presuming you at least intelligent enough to figure that part out―I shan't repeat the error in the future.

The reason I ask is because another poster drew my attention to a past incident where you made a similar assumption about another member. Remember Baron Max? Apparently he trounced you in a number of discussions, and you stomped off to the moderator forum and argued in favor of banning him. One of your arguments in favor of his banning was that members were sick of his 'antagonistic style'. Another moderator made a poll to determine the veracity of this claim, and an overwhelming number of voters stated that they did not support the banning of Baron Max. The relevant thread is here: http://www.sciforums.com/threads/banning-of-baron-max.86667/

So you can imagine my skepticism when you claim that the people on sciforums think I'm full of shit, as it appears your biases skew reality to fit your own preconceptions.

Tiassa: Take a look around, Tali. Who is actually supporting you? Right now it seems not even your fellow rape advocates want anything to do with you.

And how exactly should other posters on sciforums 'support' me? Should they hold my handbag so that both my hands are free to type out my responses? Or should they act as my choir, preaching the exact same message I do? In case you haven't noticed, I don't require the support of a hive-mind. I'm more than capable of exposing your intellectual dishonesty without any assistance. Although admittedly that is not such an impressive feat, given then even an 8 year old would likely be able to detect the logical fallacies in your arguments.

tali89: Which social scientists? The ones inside the rape culture, or the ones outside of it?
Tiassa: What does that even mean?

If you're going to rush to the support of iceaura, it would befit you to familiarize yourself with what he has actually argued up to this point. He first claimed that people living inside a rape culture usually aren't aware that they live in a rape culture. Then he later observed that people living outside a rape culture often don't realize it as such due to their lack of experience with said culture. So which social scientists are qualified to determine whether a rape culture exists? The ones living inside the rape culture, or the ones living outside of it?

tali89: Are you also claiming that I was the only one discussing the prevalence of rape in the U.S? If so, how can you justify that claim when it wasn't me who posted the rape statistics in the first place?

Tiassa: What does that even mean?

So now you're being deliberately obtuse? Once again, I suggest you go back and read iceaura's assertions before you attempt to defend them. You might be surprised at what sort of nonsense you are defending.

To clarify, iceaura stated that I was the only one discussing the prevalence of rape in the U.S when attempting to determine if a rape culture existed. That's evidently not true, as it wasn't even me who posted those statistics to begin with. Ergo. Iceaura lied.

How can anyone demonstrate anything for someone who refuses those demonstrations?

Are you claiming that Iceaura has demonstrated that gangs of rapists, and crime syndicates of rapists, and organized criminal rapists and communities who receive and protect them, exist in areas of Western society? Where has he done that? If he hasn't, then your claim that I have refused to acknowledge those demonstrations is yet another lie.

Would a woman who says she's been sexually harassed in a club need to provide you some sort of scientific data in order to prove the point?

Would someone who was mugged by a black man be expected to provide scientific data to prove that blacks have a culture of criminality? Or should we rely on their anecdotal evidence to sum up the behavior of entire group of people?

 

[tali89]

By the way, I just wanted to note something for the audience. I was banned for 3 days for 'trolling/baiting' the administrator after he branded me a misogynist not once, but twice. Iceaura condescended to attacking my mental health, and Tiassa has wrongfully branded a number of participants on this thread 'rape advocates', an accusation that could result in the victim being unemployed/socially ostracized in real life. These leftists sure can dish out the personal attacks, but they can't take even the slightest criticism, can they?

 

[tali89]

By the way, I felt this image was relevant to Bell's reply to me:
source: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTJatchUkAEm1uD.jpg:large

 

[Bells]

By the way, I felt this image was relevant to Bell's reply to me:

I take it you will not be getting your ex-boyfriend to stand outside a kid's school and say the same friendly comments to little girls as they walk past? After all, as you just demonstrated, there's nothing wrong with it, right? There's nothing sexual about it and your ex-boyfriend would just be saying friendly hellos to little girls as they walk past, right? Or he can stand on a street corner and say it to men as they walk past. See how long he lasts.

As I said, context and your failure to recognise that those "hey, how are you?" are targeted at just women and they aren't being friendly, they are being sleazy. And more often than not, when women ignore them, they are called names. Or at worse, harassed further or physically assaulted or killed.

One woman in Detroit was shot and killed after refusing to give a stranger her phone number. Another woman in New York got her throat slashed for refusing to go on a date with a stranger.

Those are just two examples of violence perpetrated against women over the past week. And while those cases grabbed news headlines, other acts of aggression on the street may have very well gone unreported. Advocates working to stop street harassment say the two incidents are a clear illustration of why catcalls and come-ons aren’t harmless for the people on the receiving end.

“You never know when street harassment is going to escalate into violence — and too often it does,” Emily May, the co-founder and current executive director of Hollaback!, an international nonprofit working to combat street harassment, said in a statement. “These recent cases are chilling.”

In Detroit, witnesses say that a 27-year-old mother of three named Mary Spears was harassed by a man after leaving the funeral of a family friend. He was asking for her number, which she refused to give to him because she was in a relationship. But the man wouldn’t leave her alone. Once her fiancee tried to intervene, the man opened fire, killing Spears and wounding five other people.

[...]

A similar situation recently unfolded in New York City, according to the New York Post. Police say that a man in Queens started pestering a 26-year-old to go on a date with him, but she turned him down. He reportedly became enraged, grabbed her, and slashed her neck with a blade. She was rushed to the hospital in critical condition but is expected to survive.

[source]​

 

[Bells]

Just saying hello? When you don't know if your saying nothing or saying 'no' is going to result in being abused or killed, then it's not just saying hello. It is no longer friendly.

Earlier this week a man in a car pulled up next to a 14-year old girl on a street in Florida and offered to pay her $200 to have sex with him. Some people would say that's a compliment. It's part of being out in society, learning to deal with people, navigating relationships between men and women. Or, at least that what many commenters on articles I write about street harassment think. That or maybe they're thinking, "She must have looked like a prostitute," and well, you know.

The girl said no. So what does this guy do? He reaches out, drags her, by her hair, into his car, chokes her until she blacks out, tosses her out of the car and then, not done yet, he runs her over several times. Bystanders watched the entire episode in shock. He almost killed her, but she lived and ID'd him in a line up and he's been arrested and charged with Attempted Murder, Aggravated Battery with a Deadly Weapon and False Imprisonment. What was the Deadly Weapon referred to in the charge I wonder? Given our normatively male understanding interpretation of what is threatening, does a man pulling up to a girl like this and talking to her in this way constitute imminent harm?

This was an incident of street harassment taken to extremes.

You're thinking, "He's crazy! You can't possibly put what he did in the same category as street harassment!" Yes, I can.

He stopped and talked to a girl he did not know and he told her what he thought and what he wanted her to do. Clearly, he felt this was okay, or he wouldn't have done it.This isn't insanity, it's entitlement. This is, in principle, the same as men who say, "Smile," "Want a ride?" "Suck on this" and on and on and on. And, that's all before the public groping that might ensue.

OK. No big deal I've been told. But, he went further, as is often the case. When she said no, he just took her. He crossed a red line that seriously needs to be moved. "Taking someone" should not be the "red line" for public incivility and safe access to public space.​

Or this:

We hear about cases like this with dulling regularity and, undoubtedly, we don't hear about even more. Just a smattering of examples:

• In San Francisco last year, a man stabbed a woman in the face and arm after she didn't respond positively to his sexually harassing her on the street.
• In Bradenton, Fla., a man shot a high school senior to death after she and her friends refused to perform oral sex at his request. I
• In Chicago, a scared 15-year-old was hit by a car and died after she tried escaping from harassers on a bus.
• Again, in Chicago, a man grabbed a 19-year-old walking on a public thoroughfare, pulled her onto a gangway and assaulted her.
• In Savannah, Georgia, a woman was walking alone at night and three men approached her. She ignored them, but they pushed her to the ground and sexually assaulted her
• In Manhattan, a 29-year-old pregnant woman was killed when men catcalling from a van drove onto the sidewalk and hit her and her friend.
• Last week, a runner in California -- a woman -- was stopped and asked, by a strange man in a car, if she wanted a ride. When she declined he ran her over twice.

Or do you require further examples of just how women and men and children cannot know that the stranger on the street acting like a sleaze is not going to physically or verbally attack them for not doing what they want them to do?

Women really only have two options when it comes to responding to catcallers: Either act gracious and risk having to engage further, or politely ignore them and apparently risk getting slashed.

A woman was at the Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall subway stop on Saturday afternoon when a man wearing a Yankees cap decided to hit on her. When she ignored his advances, he spit at her. When she laughed because, like, who does that, he slashed her in the arm with a knife before fleeing the station.​

And it isn't just women who are being attacked. Men and women who come to their aid or ask the harasser to stop are often also attacked or killed.

She isn’t the only one to be murdered or seriously injured while intervening with a harasser. In October, an Egyptian teenager was stabbed to death while stopping to help young women experiencing harassment. In March, a Chicago man was killed by a harasser in front of his 15-year-old daughter after he confronted the man for making “inappropriate gestures” at his daughter. Last month a San Francisco man sustained life-threatening injuries after asking a harasser to leave his girlfriend alone. A Philadelphia man was hospitalized after he told a harasser to watch what he was saying to women nearby, and the harasser got out of his vehicle and attacked him.

And then there have been the horrific incidents in which harassed women have been hurt or killed. There was the woman in Detroit who was shot dead after refusing to give a stranger her phone number. The woman in New York whose throat was slashed by a man she refused to go on a date with. The woman in Seattle who faced a man’s gun after she ignored his repeated invitations to “hang out.” And the two transwomen in Atlanta who were harassed and then violently attacked in a subway car, prompting them to move from the city.​

Do you want to know why it is never just a "hello, how are you?" as though it is friendly banter from a stranger? Because there is always, and I mean always, the threat that you could end up dead at the end of it, regardless of how you respond. It ceases to be a compliment when there is always a threat of possible violence hanging over our heads.

 

[milkweed]

It’s always a combination of nature and nurture, don't cha think?

I dont know that it cant be one, the other, or a combination. Plus the debate about a lack of nurture and damaged/developmental/social issues.

Does nature define culture? Does nurture? If so, then isnt culture a product of and not a cause?

Are you a male, Milkweed?

Why do you ask?

I’m curious, Milkweed, do men care more about their status than getting the girl? Are they more concerned with obtaining approval from other men? Does this affect their preference in a woman’s appearance? Is beauty culturally defined? How 'bout masculinity? It’s cultural, isn’t it?

1. I dont know. Define status. A guy can be a floor sweeper at walmart but defines his life by his status in the car club, or by his job title. I think it varies by individual and personal goals.
2. I think it varies by individual.
3. Which this, approval, status or getting the girl? All of them? And see #4.
4.http://time.com/4057616/yes-you-really-do-have-a-type-science-says/
5. Depends on the age. Kids masculinity is defined by family, teens - 20's influenced by peer-pressure defined by self, 30s to retirement- self family job, once the grandkids start coming, they define grandpa/uncles masculinity.
6. Based on the previous questions, does not seem to correlate.

 

[Tiassa]

Never Knows Best

​

Sometimes the observable is, well, obvious.

When it comes to a woman's right to walk unharmed through a city street, our understanding takes a nose dive.

'Of course we're not rapists!' we say to ourselves. We condemn the pack-animal mentality in India. 'My mother is a woman!' It's as predictable as a 90's Demtel commercial. But then, we'll go home and watch The Footy Show or maybe Jersey Shore, both of which reduce women to empty vessels at best and objects of sexual derision at worst. Some of us may go to the pub―even joined by A Woman, because we're evolved―and they like to joke along too! It's all part of the fun! Lighten up! (Nice pins, by the way).

If, God forbid, a woman is attacked here in Australia, the inevitable questions about where and with whom she was before it happened convince me more than anything that we are embroiled in dangerous times. In 2012, our postcard playground is still smeared with this retrograde thinking. Jill Meagher, even in death, was maligned by the protectors of female chastity for daring to venture out by herself at night time.

In short, we just don't get it.

Yes, there are gradations of sexism. There's Al Qaeda on one side and a few loose smatterings of men on the other extreme. But, let's be honest, boys―most of us Nice Guys are in the middle and we're not budging. Because that would force us to question our own assumptions about our own masculinity and how it is impacted by the empowering of over one half of the global community.

No, we're not all rapists. That notion has been one of the most grievous mistruths ever propagated by patriarchy―that we are all loose-loined brutes chomping at the bit. But most of us tacitly condone the cultural framework that allows rape to happen.​

Simon Tedeschi↱ kicked off 2013 with a jarring indictment of his own Australian society. A month and a half later, Anna Minard↱ of The Stranger struck at the heart and conscience of Seattle:

The post includes a long message from SPD's North Precinct crime prevention officer, Terrie Johnston, recommending that readers "please review these personal safety tips." The tips, of which there are a dozen, include things like:​

Do you know your location? Do you know the street names, hundred block? East, South, West, North? Could you tell the 9-1-1 call taker to where they need to dispatch responders?

Try to get good descriptions of anyone acting suspiciously or threatening. Start from the head and work down. Most likely you know your height, so use this to gauge theirs.

If traveling alone, take a charged up cell phone with you if possible. Know what is available to you along your route. What time does that store open or close? Does that apt.bldg. have a security guard? Is there a payphone?

Ipod earphones, etc. may prevent you from hearing someone approaching. As does texting while you are walking, waiting for the bus, etc. You need to be aware when out if public spaces.

Wear appropriate clothing for the street. Shoes that are comfortable and allow you to run if necessary. Choose clothing that allows you to move, and does not block your vision.​

The list also includes the tips: "Stand tall, walk confidently with your head up, eyes open and constantly scanning the surroundings" and "Try not to show fear. Keep a neutral face that shows you are 'in charge.'"

So, to review: Seattleites—and let's be honest, we're talking mostly to women here—as you go about your business, constantly scan your surroundings, memorizing detailed physical descriptions of people you encounter. Always know, down to the exact block, where you are and where the nearest security guard is and the hours of nearby businesses. Wear running shoes and loose, appropriate clothing—aka clothing appropriate for running away in. Bring your cell phone, but don't use it to listen to music or text. And as you walk through the city like a human danger-scanner, walk confidently and keep your face neutral. You're "in charge"!

WHAT THE FUCK?

I'm sure the police department is working to solve these crimes. I'm sure they just want to remind people that we live in a city and crime is real and it can happen to you. But this is exactly the kind of shit that we are talking about when we talk about women being raised in a culture of fear and conditioned to certain behaviors and expectations—like the expectation that we're the ducks in a giant game of Duck Hunt™.​

You know, there's a reason I wonder about topic posts like we saw in this thread↑, and that reason seems to prove out.

It is one thing to pretetnd confusion, and quite another to foment it. There must be a reason why these people just can't deal with the question; male supremacism can't really be that important, can it?

The way I see it↱―

This is the only identifiable boundary to what would otherwise be infinite prevention advocacy; the IPAs want women to suspect every man, but #NotAllMen, and definitely not me, or my husband, or my son, or my brother, or my freakin' anyone!

Think about what we're down to. When you go out on the town, ladies, wear shoes that are suitable for running away from an assailant. And dress appropriately for fighting off an assailant. And make sure your haircut doesn't help an assailant too much. And don't use your mobile phone downtown. And don't listen to music downtown. And don't let your friends pour you drinks. And don't encourage the harassers by responding. And don't encourage them by looking frightened. And don't encourage them by looking like you're ignoring them. And … and … and ....

And at what point is this a human rights issue? At what point do quality of life and living in fear matter? Is it merely when that prevention advice must be applied to #NotAllMen?

And what those "prevention" advocates need to comprehend is that you can't ask this sort of contradiction of anyone. Suspect everyone, but not everyone? Suspect everyone, but not me?​

―it really isn't so hard to see.

The thing is that the logical failures are hardly subtle. Effort is a prerequisite of failure to notice overlapping demands for mutually exclusive conditions. And, you know, damn it, if a continuing rape crisis besieging the women we know—our mothers and daughters and sisters and friends—is what it takes for you to be able to crack a crude, locker-room joke without feeling like you’re oppressing women, what the hell is wrong with you?​

The underlying reminder from our neighbors' insistence on morbidly farcical straw men is that the only people qualified to talk about rape culture are men who want you to pretend it doesn't exist.

This is a human rights issue.

Yeah. Women are human beings. They have human rights. If this fact troubles you, something about misogyny goes here, and that's your problem to deal with.
____________________

Notes:

Tedeschi, Simon. "We must face up to our own rape culture". The Drum. 1 January 2013. ABC.net.au. 22 November 2015. http://ab.co/1NmvWdk

Minard, Anna. "To Avoid Rape, 'Try not to show fear.'" Slog. 13 February 2013. Slog.TheStranger.com. 22 November 2015. http://bit.ly/1N7RbxJ

 

[iceaura]

Just picking one or two from Tali's spectacle:

I've asked iceaura to support claims that he made.

No, you have not. Outside of you being obviously the product of a rape culture, which I did support, and not of sound mind in your posting, which I did support, you have not managed to ask me about a single claim that I have actually posted. You have asked me to support claims you invented for me to have made, but that is not at all the same thing.

Then he later observed that people living outside a rape culture often don't realize it as such due to their lack of experience with said culture.

What I observed is that your rape culture, like most, is easily recognized by outsiders encountering it. I also recommended to Bowser that he begin his education in this matter by studying strange cultures, where one is not habituated to the irrationality and nonsense.

To clarify, iceaura stated that I was the only one discussing the prevalence of rape in the U.S when attempting to determine if a rape culture existed

I stated nothing of the kind. You have now been corrected on a couple of different misrepresentations of that posting of mine - this is a pattern. You should not paraphrase - it requires comprehension.

Iceaura condescended to attacking my mental health, - -

With evidence - I posted a sequence of quotes from me and responses from you - pretty much entire, in consecutive sequence, and in their original order - that were mentally fruitloops, hallucinatory in their derangement. You have some kind of difficulty with meaning, language, the ordinary use of words and sentences to make sense.

And I have reason to do that: handling that kind of crazy in detail is too much work, and a discourtesy to the forum. You're inability to think or talk straight is not the topic of this thread.

Like this:

Are you claiming that Iceaura has demonstrated that gangs of rapists, and crime syndicates of rapists, and organized criminal rapists and communities who receive and protect them, exist in areas of Western society?

You claim to have derived that from my posting. That is deranged. Running back through that entire argument is a waste of bandwidth - so: dismissed as crazy, moving on.

To topic:

If so, then isnt culture a product of and not a cause?

All culture is a shaping, handling, guiding, incorporation, etc, of various natural human propensities and natures.

Are you claiming that rape is inevitably part of any human culture's norms and common structure?

The claim here is that cultures vary considerably in their abetting, rewarding, allowing, and including as structure, rape. Do you find that claim implausible?

 

[tali89]

I see that iceaura has popped back into this thread to take a few snipes at me, after he previously ran away from supporting his conjecture.

tali89: I've asked iceaura to support claims that he made.

iceaura: No, you have not.

So now you're asserting that I haven't asked you to support your claims? This just gets better and better. Just in case you've forgotten, here are the list of claims you have made that you have yet to provide any substantial evidence for:

- That I live in a rape culture.

- That rape jokes are evidence of rape culture, whereas Holocaust jokes are not evidence of an anti-Semitic genocide culture.

- That I'm lying when I claimed I haven't heard anyone in my culture tell a rape joke, and explain how your assertion is relevant to me eating hamburgers.

- Clarify who is qualified to identify a rape culture, when you have claimed that people both within and outside of a rape culture may have trouble identifying it as such.

- You need to explain why the prevalence of rape is irrelevant when attempting to determine whether a rape culture exists, and why you claimed I was the only one discussing these statistics when it was another poster who posted them to fuel discussion of how common rape is in the United States.

- You need to provide evidence of organized gangs of rapists in places you deem to be rape culture, as well as evidence that officials systematically protect them.

- You need to demonstrate that theft is taken more seriously than rape by the police, and that convicted thieves are given longer convictions than rapists.

- You need to demonstrate that convicted rapists aren't blamed for raping individuals.

Outside of you being obviously the product of a rape culture, which I did support

You 'supported' that claim with a mixture of circular reasoning and the 'No true Scotsman' fallacy. Using logic fallacies to defend your claim doesn't make that claim more credible.

and not of sound mind in your posting, which I did support,

You haven't provided any substantial evidence or cogent logic to support any of your other claims, let alone your speculation about my mental state (which you don't have any qualifications to pass judgement on anyway). What you have done is demonstrate that you're an individual who makes light of mental illness to score cheap points, which is nothing to be proud of.

you have not managed to ask me about a single claim that I have actually posted.

Several left-wing allies of yours have attempted to defend you with the same argument, demonstrating that they have not paid attention to your posts. I responded by quoting exactly where you made the claims. I can do so again, if you want, but I think it would be rather embarrassing to have your own words quoted back to you.

What I observed is that your rape culture, like most, is easily recognized by outsiders encountering it.

And then you observed that people living outside of a rape culture can't see and experience what goes on in the rape culture. So essentially, you're claiming that people living within a rape culture don't recognize it as such because they are acclimatized to it, yet individuals outside of the rape culture may also not be able to identify it as such due to their ignorance. Do you want me to quote your own words back to you? Or are you happy to go back and review what is a matter of public record?

 

[tali89]

I take it you will not be getting your ex-boyfriend to stand outside a kid's school and say the same friendly comments to little girls as they walk past?

Are you comparing adult women to children? Yeah, right, nothing sexist or condescending to women there . The rest of your post hinges on a sexist and demeaning premise, so I'm not going to address it.

 

[Bells]

Are you comparing adult women to children? Yeah, right, nothing sexist or condescending to women there .

No. I was pointing out that if this was simply just someone saying hello, there should be nothing wrong with it. I also suggested he stand on a street corner and say the same thing to random men walking past.

What? Do you think there is something wrong with your ex-boyfriend standing on a street corner telling random men walking past to smile because it makes them look pretty? It's just friendly banter, right? I mean, the men he is targeting with these comments should be flattered. Right?

The rest of your post hinges on a sexist and demeaning premise, so I'm not going to address it.

Why not? It's just examples of men 'saying hello' to women and their responses when they are rebuffed or ignored.

Are you offended that these sadly common examples of what happens to men, women and children due to 'they were just saying hello' demean these men?

 

[birch]

So not only does iceaura have issues with reading comprehension, he also struggles with watching a 2 minute video. Here is the video in question:

Here are a number of statements in the video that are simple greetings which the author included as evidence of sexual harassment:

0:14 - "How are you doing today?"

0:36: "How are you this morning?"

0:40: "Have a nice evening"

1.11: "How are you doing?"

1.36: "What's up miss?"

1.38: "How are you doing?"

Indeed, there are far more instances of innocent greetings and remarks being misrepresented as street harassment in that video than I originally remembered. One thing is for certain though, and that is that iceaura has been caught out in a bald faced lie. Given that iceaura condescended to attempting to use the issue of mental illness to ridicule me, I doubt he will apologize for his dishonest behavior.

My god, context.

Its obvious that's harassment as her experience or extremely annoying to deal with as if she should feel obligated to stop and respond and rather moronic and crude manners on their part. They also either lack understanding of what's appropriate or don't care. Its also rather lame and pathetic. These aren't people saying hello because its appropriate in the situation. The female is singled out and its motivated by opportunism (obviously they are trying to flirt). Otherwise, they would be greeting anyone that passes by.

In the other thread you stated people do feel harassed by total strangers trying to flirt. But you also took that out of context as well. Decent people don't randomly catcall on the street which this clearly is. There 'hellos' are obviously not motivated by general good manners. The key reason this is harassment is she is obviously going about her business and there is no justification for their 'greetings' in this context which even more strongly is indicative that its inappropriate as well as makes it astoundingly obvious its catcalling (aka harassment). Can you read motivation, and situational context? Or do you just refuse to?