What does religion DO?

[Jan Ardena]

Signal,

but this "perfect source" will also torture the majority of souls in hell for all eternity.

I am not aware of this.
Can you cite some texts?

When I see happy monotheists of whatever denomination, praising God, I think "These people were able to reconcile "perfect source", "loving" with "eternal torture". They must be really spiritually advanced."

This is understanding is due to the lack of knowledge of spiritual science.

I never was able to reconcile this. The notion of eternal damnation, to me, entails some other notions that I cannot accept

Do you accept that if you put your hand in fire it will get burned?

jan.

 

[Dywyddyr]

But its not nonsense, which was my point.

Nope, it's insupportable. That makes it nonsense. There's nothing to indicate that it's the case.

You appealed to what you thought was an authority.

Hardly.
I merely pointed out that it wasn't just me. There's a difference.

I am already aware of your atheism.
Where do you think evidence would come from?

Not my problem. I'm not the one making the claims.

Why?

Because they also are not a "matter for science", just belief.

So Daffy Duck is alive then?
I said "life" is the word used to describe the phenomena.

You used the word animator.
Try again - I'll requote YOU.

the soul (the individual sparks of 'spirit, is the animator of material bodies.

Post #49.

Why default to "dense"?
I just don't see a point.

You claimed there wasn't one. Not the same as admitting you didn't see it.

That is what you can expect with a godless regime.
In fact I would go as far as to say that is the symptom of an atheistic regime. "We are right, so this will become state food, period.

Hmm, as opposed to "There's this invisible guy in the sky who is right so this will become state food", maybe?

I don't know. How many?

Rhetorical.

God is not an "assumed" perfect source, God is the perfect source.
You just don't believe it. Which is your perogative.

Assumed because he's accepted on no evidence.

Pigs are considered unclean because of what they consume, which
is more or less anything (including pooh). What we eat affects not only
our bodies, but our minds also. "You are what you eat" is a relevant quote.

Yeah, unfortunately that's not how it happened. Pigs produce nothing until they're dead and carved up, unlike cows, chickens etc. So they consume resources and get a "free ride". This made them "undesirable" for nomad tribes, and that undesirability became enshrined (literally) as law. A pig will eat what it's fed (and if fed properly wouldn't bother with pooh).

Jesus was the embodiment of an aspect of religion.

An aspect isn't the whole.

It's not coercion if its true.

If there's any choice then making someone do it your way is coercion.
And "true" is an assumption.

It is a merciful act.
I've already explained that there are things we don't know, and will never know by our own endeavours.

So we (or rather the "ruling class") invent characters to give those explanations. And legitimise their rule. "We should be in charge because we talk to god").

He is saying, when we die, if we are not God-concious, our fate will be nothing but a cremation.

Any support for that interpretation?

 

[Grim_Reaper]

You've offered no proof of anything.
Because you have no proof of anything.
You just can't stand religion, or anything to do with it.
It is clear you don't care for it, nor do you wish to try and understand it.
Which is why it is difficult to have a conversation with you on the subject.
Your response is nothing but the expression of personal repugnance.
I apreciate your trying to create some kind of a rational discourse, but it just aint happening.

jan.

I don't understand religion that is might arrogant of you typical response from one of the flock. I understand religion the problem is I see through what it really is. I attended Church and bible retreats and bible camps as I was growing up and the older I got the more I started to understand the rational real world and started to question what was in the Bible. And you see that is were the problem started the loving Church and the loving religion did not want to be questioned as you see it had no answers other then the collection of stories that were in the Bible and the real killer for me was when they tried to tell me that I was a child of Satan because I was asking the hard questions they had to rational answer for. So before you try to ride off on that High horse you call religion and felling so good and righteous TAKE A LOOK AROUND AND WAKE UP AND SMELL THE ROSES. Religion is a delusion that is implanted into a week mind that is will to accept what they righteous are saying and taking it as the truth. Don't even presume to know someone does your Bible not say Do not Judge lest ye be judged. Please

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

Nope, it's insupportable.

What do you mean by this?

Hardly.
I merely pointed out that it wasn't just me. There's a difference.

So why invoke scientific disciplines to make this point?

Not my problem. I'm not the one making the claims.

So why bring up the subject of evidence?
I haven't claimed it as a scientific fact.

Because they also are not a "matter for science", just belief.

Actually it would be a matter for science, as they are described as physical beings.

You used the word animator.
Try again - I'll requote YOU.

What is your point?

You claimed there wasn't one. Not the same as admitting you didn't see it.

I still don't see it, so i'm still assuming there isn't one.

Hmm, as opposed to "There's this invisible guy in the sky who is right so this will become state food", maybe?

Obviously you misunderstood my point.
Words are immaterial, action is what counts.

Assumed because he's accepted on no evidence.

What do you mean by "evidence".

Yeah, unfortunately that's not how it happened. Pigs produce nothing until they're dead and carved up, unlike cows, chickens etc. So they consume resources and get a "free ride". This made them "undesirable" for nomad tribes, and that undesirability became enshrined (literally) as law. A pig will eat what it's fed (and if fed properly wouldn't bother with pooh).

The pig must enjoy that life, so it must be in its nature.

An aspect isn't the whole.

So what's your point?

If there's any choice then making someone do it your way is coercion.
And "true" is an assumption.

Where does he apply force.
"true" is an assumption for those, for whom it is an assumption.

So we (or rather the "ruling class") invent characters to give those explanations. And legitimise their rule. "We should be in charge because we talk to god").

Mankind isn't capable of inventing such elaborate scriptures and philosophies.
Even the best writers, poets, and philosophers, cannot go beyond such works. The best we can do, is draw upon them, and rearange them.

Any support for that interpretation?

Err..... the text itself?

jan.

 

[LColburn86]

Christians aren't supposed to be like that. and not all are. but on the last days of humanity, there will only be 144,000 people in the whole world who are truely christian and speak the truth. so dont give me that christians are bad nonsence. People are bad. everyone. It takes practice and hard work to be blameless in the eyes of God. And it says in the Bible we are to question the words of the prophets.

*LuCresia C.

 

[Grim_Reaper]

Christians aren't supposed to be like that. and not all are. but on the last days of humanity, there will only be 144,000 people in the whole world who are truely christian and speak the truth. so dont give me that christians are bad nonsence. People are bad. everyone. It takes practice and hard work to be blameless in the eyes of God. And it says in the Bible we are to question the words of the prophets.

*LuCresia C.

Why only 144000 is there not room for all this is what I was told that if you follow Jesus and God you will have a place in Heaven there was nothing about the need for a Ticket to an exclusive Party.

 

[LColburn86]

No you must not sin. You must live for God by works and Faith. In that time so many people are bad that when the end come only 144,000 people at that time will be saved. Its not an over all figure. it just means at that moment when it is time. Only that amount of people on the whole earth.

 

[Grim_Reaper]

So again you need that special ticket to get in if you are number 144001 you are screwed as you have stated there is no room for you in Heaven. What about all the people that have died what about them will that not cut into the 144000 allowed to the party perhaps your spot is already taken by your Aunt rose or Uncle Donnie, Please insert what ever name you wish but your citation of 144000 allowed to the party is just ludicrous.

 

[Grim_Reaper]

And your statement is the type of statement that helped me to see that the Religion is nothing other then a smoke screen and I bet you Given 15 to 25 percent of your wage to the church to dont you and if you have kids you take there money and do they same with that I bet as well keeping the church rich and you poor or close to it.

 

[LColburn86]

I dont give thyth because I don't go to church. The Bible says not to forsake the assembly of yourselves but, no chuch is an assembly of me. Too many are as you described especially in my area. I donate to the Salvation army because when I was a kid they would give me and my dad food. I don't think your understanding what i mean about 144,000 people. There are no more people from that day forth that had they had the oportunity would have been christian. period. there is no 144,001th person. the 144,001th person decided He didnt believe in God. That is on the last day of the whole world. Everyone who was saved before that day- is already in Heaven right now. right now. right now. no one is waiting for a ticket. If they died and believed in God and lived for Him they are already there. And all the people who will be born after you and I die who could ever possibly be christian God is waiting for them until thier very last breath to be saved, because God knows everything already, and He knows who will end up being saved already. The Bible says He knows the number of hairs on our head. They are numbered. He knows everything. If you are going to be saved He knows. He will not leave you behind. He will wait for you until your dying day. Only after the last person is saved will He judge thoughs who are still living. AND even though He KNOWS they wont be christian the Bible says He will wait and send Prophets to talk to them to convince them from heaven before its to late. but they still do not except Him and die.

 

[wynn]

I am not aware of this.
Can you cite some texts?

I know you are not, and this has come up in discussion with you more than once, and Biblical references have been posted for you before (but you left right after that), and I also know that in your religion, you have a specific interpretation of the Bible - see 4.2 here, references listed there.

Many Christians, notably Catholics and Protestants, however, preach that hell is eternal, and according to them it says so in the Bible.

Bottomline: The idea of eternal damnation is present in our culture. Since the threat is about something serious, it behooves to take it seriously.

Basing a counterargument on a poor translation of the Bible does seem a bit lighthearted, as the threat of eternal damnation is as serious as anything can get, so one would hope for a better counterargument, a good philosophical one at least.

This is understanding is due to the lack of knowledge of spiritual science.

On whose part? Mine, theirs, both?

Do you accept that if you put your hand in fire it will get burned?

Sure, and I don't have a problem with a season in hell.
Hell forever, eternal, with no chance of redemption, even if one were to change one's mind - that is another matter.

 

[LColburn86]

Happy Turkey DAY!!!!!!

 

[Dywyddyr]

What do you mean by this?

It means that there is no actual data or evidence to indicate that what you stated is factual.

So why invoke scientific disciplines to make this point?

Because if I'd said "Fred Bloggs also thinks so" your response would have been "Who's Fred Bloggs".

So why bring up the subject of evidence?
I haven't claimed it as a scientific fact.

Ah okay, it's speculation.

Actually it would be a matter for science, as they are described as physical beings.

Uh, huh. With supernatural powers.

What is your point?

That it's a question for history - and too long and involved to put into a post.

Obviously you misunderstood my point.
Words are immaterial, action is what counts.

That's right. And there's no difference to the action. Behave or suffer.

What do you mean by "evidence".

Something that can be shown to subjectively exist. That can be independently verified.

The pig must enjoy that life, so it must be in its nature.

Must enjoy?

So what's your point?

That "Jesus" isn't "religion".

Where does he apply force.

Do this or suffer Hell, perhaps?

Mankind isn't capable of inventing such elaborate scriptures and philosophies.
Even the best writers, poets, and philosophers, cannot go beyond such works. The best we can do, is draw upon them, and rearange them.

Unprovable speculation.

Err..... the text itself?

Really?
It says that the burning comes as cremation, after they're dead?

 

[Bishadi]

The vast majority of human beings on our planet simply practice the religion in which they were brought up to believe.

sad but true

which is why the term atheist exists. Most everyone of them became aware that what they were taught was untrue. And rather than be mad as (per se) god, they diassociate from the LIARS, and god get's the bad rapp, because many see just how bad the liars are for what they believe came from god versus men.

this thread is huge for any to see "what does religion do"

 

[Grim_Reaper]

I dont give thyth because I don't go to church. The Bible says not to forsake the assembly of yourselves but, no chuch is an assembly of me. Too many are as you described especially in my area. I donate to the Salvation army because when I was a kid they would give me and my dad food. I don't think your understanding what i mean about 144,000 people. There are no more people from that day forth that had they had the oportunity would have been christian. period. there is no 144,001th person. the 144,001th person decided He didnt believe in God. That is on the last day of the whole world. Everyone who was saved before that day- is already in Heaven right now. right now. right now. no one is waiting for a ticket. If they died and believed in God and lived for Him they are already there. And all the people who will be born after you and I die who could ever possibly be christian God is waiting for them until thier very last breath to be saved, because God knows everything already, and He knows who will end up being saved already. The Bible says He knows the number of hairs on our head. They are numbered. He knows everything. If you are going to be saved He knows. He will not leave you behind. He will wait for you until your dying day. Only after the last person is saved will He judge thoughs who are still living. AND even though He KNOWS they wont be christian the Bible says He will wait and send Prophets to talk to them to convince them from heaven before its to late. but they still do not except Him and die.

Yes same drivel that they were saying when I was in Church but what about all the other religions out there like the Jews and the Muslims. Lets take the Jews which are gods chosen people the Bible even says so they are Jewish not Christian so you are saying God is going to turn his back in them his chosen people. Does not sound fair to me and what incentive does a person have to stirve for perfection in life and God if they know there is no way what so ever they will be allowed into Heaven as they have sined and it is sorry about your luck Pal. I have come across a few Door knockers like you before and they say the same thing. What it boils down to is Blind Faith in something that is a mass delusion nothing more and my orginal statement stands religion is to control people so they will not think for themselves and promise them some thing they will never get.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Signal,

I know you are not, and this has come up in discussion with you more than once, and Biblical references have been posted for you before (but you left right after that), and I also know that in your religion, you have a specific interpretation of the Bible - see 4.2 here, references listed there.

Thanks for the link, it seems very interesting.
I'll need some time to look at it.

Bottomline: The idea of eternal damnation is present in our culture. Since the threat is about something serious, it behooves to take it seriously.

As you are affected by the thoughts and perceptions of others, this cannot be resolved by religious dialougue.

Basing a counterargument on a poor translation of the Bible does seem a bit lighthearted, as the threat of eternal damnation is as serious as anything can get, so one would hope for a better counterargument, a good philosophical one at least.

Would it make any real difference?
Would it allow you to understand that it doesn't matter
what he, or she, says?

On whose part? Mine, theirs, both?

In general.
Folks don't seem to differentiate between God, and man.
They don't seem realise there is a difference between matter and spirit.
It is as if everything has been dumbed down, to the level of the materialist.

Sure, and I don't have a problem with a season in hell.
Hell forever, eternal, with no chance of redemption, even if one were to change one's mind - that is another matter.

In the example I gave, did you notice that the reaction was due to the action?
Do you think the pain you would have felt was a fair reaction?
Do you think you would have learned a lesson from that action and reaction?

jan.

 

[Bishadi]

dejavu is a an experience of a time/event before it happens.

the property within existence (nature) that enables it, is entanglement.

ie... we all entangled to existence (God/mother nature) whether you like it or not. (gotta breath, eat......right?) All submit to mother nature (god).

to isolate from the garden, then you (of mind) away from God (our creator).

but no one is going anywhere, nor even capable of being 'away from the garden except within the mind (belief))

Christians aren't supposed to be like that. and not all are. but on the last days of humanity, there will only be 144,000 people in the whole world who are truely christian and speak the truth.

always wondered about that, but i see the number as that within the land of the 2 rings (shamballa/sion/zion.... taos) as the land can only sustain so many

but then again, i could understand that only a few are really being that straight, (the indigenous; they do not exist within mother having pockets or claims of ownership to much of anything but their own responsibility to life)

so dont give me that christians are bad nonsence. People are bad. everyone.

fine approach as most all can be a saint tomorrow and a murderer today, equally

It takes practice and hard work to be blameless in the eyes of God.

can you honestly say, you have left no bad on this earth (existence)? I sure can't and i have walked on (frozen) water, many times.

And it says in the Bible we are to question the words of the prophets.

honesty over belief; be the best rule

point to remember, we all have far far far far more data, knowledge and access to them variations, then ever before available on this earth

our period in time (existence) has the internet

kind of like having all that knowledge at our fingertips.

point is, who needs to lie to themselves anymore?

notice the contrast between a person being honest and capable versus being religious?

the religious are not concerned with being responsible (self reflecting) in which them believers will often oppress, distress and contest 'reality' with beliefs and most often MUST lie to retain them.

sad beyond belief

 

[LColburn86]

Your nuts. You make so many assumptions about me because I am christian. A lot of things have happened to me, but most importantly i've done a lot of bad things. I told you "God's only weakness is that He can not be of sin" He must not come near it. He is too Holy it would be against His Nature. So He had to sacrifice himself as an equal exchange for our sins. When that happened we were able to be forgiven of our sins, and thus enter Heaven by just living a loving existence for humanity here on Earth. He died for everyone, so everyone applies to that rule. Even His chosen people who persecuted Him just because He can to them poor instead of rich. which they would have known would happen if they kept the commandment of Moses which they never did. I will be surprised if just 2 million jews are in Heaven. It a matter of right and wrong. and they were. but not all Jews are masionic jews. There are Jews who follow the commandments and have never sinned who do go to heaven. But only because they believe Jesus was the atonment for thier sins. DeJa Vus are a simple miricle that everone takes for granted. God never stopped doing works for us, but we need to lean on our faith. That is the way the truth and the light.

 

[LColburn86]

*Came to them

 

[Jan Ardena]

Dywyddyr,

It means that there is no actual data or evidence to indicate that what you stated is factual.

So until the institute of science can come up with
some data, the subject moot?

Because if I'd said "Fred Bloggs also thinks so" your response would have been "Who's Fred Bloggs".

So it is an appeal to authority.

Ah okay, it's speculation.

Can you answer the question please?
Why bring up the subject of evidence (i.e scientific data)?

Uh, huh. With supernatural powers.

At this stage, its supernatural powers is no more important than
it's little green suit with matching hat.

That's right. And there's no difference to the action. Behave or suffer.

My point was, the symptom of an atheistic mentality is when it holds
people to ransom, even they use God as a reason. Meaning you can tell
a person, or organisation by their actions, and would be foolish to take
someone at their word.

Something that can be shown to subjectively exist. That can be independently verified.

Can you give an example.

Must enjoy?

Please get a grip..
If the pig eats pooh, and empty cornflake packets, it is reasonable
to assume it enjoys these delights, therefore it such indisriminate tastebuds
must be part of its nature

That "Jesus" isn't "religion".

I didn't say he was.

Do this or suffer Hell, perhaps?

So you tell your child not put its hand in the fire,
because it will suffer serious pain, you do so out of
force?

Really?
It says that the burning comes as cremation, after they're dead?

Well, it didn't actuall say 'cremation', but that is the word we use to describe
the burning of a dead body.
When a branch is attached to the tree, it lives and flourishes with the tree, if it becomes separate from the tree, it withers, and eventually dies.
Sometimes they are gathered up and disposed of by burning.

jan.