What does religion DO?

[Jan Ardena]

Signal,

Perhaps the idea of eternal damnation has been introduced because being such a formidable double bind (ie. it presents the believer with the task of reconciling God as being infinitely merciful and loving with being infinitely vindictive), it ensures that people will not reach any security or wellbeing in their theistic practice and will thus forever feel indebted to the religious institution, which in turn ensures the institution power and persistence.

These are some excellent dishes of food for thought.
And well put.

On the other hand, perhaps the idea of eternal damnation has such staying power among other reasons also because being so difficult to resolve, it makes people frustrated, and then lazy and complacent, and thus seeking enjoyment in this world, trying to lord it over material nature.
So those who have some belief in eternal damnation are actually trying to lord it over material nature in two ways: one is the basic rebellion against God; the other is due to a particular understanding of theistic doctrine that makes life seem so hard and so insane that people resort to (intense) sense enjoyment.

So in a sense this religion is the producer of atheists, and agnostics?
Or this religon is atheistic, and those who come out the other end, are atheist?

I guess this is what I have: I am complacent about my misery. I have accepted, for some reason - probably because I was forced and because I like things to be easy - that (my) intelligence cannot penetrate and resolve the apparent contradictions in the way God is often presented by Christians; and that I might therefore as well give up on trying to intelligently understand things and instead just wallow in my misery.

No! No! No!
That would be wasteful.
Imagine if Mozart thought this way.

I see a man in the street sometimes, for many years. He looks visibly disturbed, he is an alcoholic, very dirty. He speaks of God, praises Him. A little later, he completely changes the tone and swears and curses God. And then back to praising, and back to cursing. Ambivalently like that.

I think I am afraid that if I tried to get a clearer understanding of God, I would end up like that man. And that therefore, it would be better if I just somehow tried to accept eternal damnation and everything I have so far been taught about God by Christians. And not poke into what seems to be a hornet's nest.

There is a reason for the man in the streets actions.
He is an alcoholic.
You're not.

Yes ...

I'm not sure I understand your response.
What type of people do you regard as "normal"?

The Judge is Jesus/God. The day of wrath is Judgment Day, when it will be judged who will go to heaven and who to hell for all eternity. The strict judgment is about heaven and hell.

From the vedic perspective, this will mark the end of kali-yuga, when at
that time the characteristics of that age is all that will be.
Imagine a society where every point of expression is fully potent with the characteristics of kali-yuga, and nothing else.

But this seems so hopeless! First of all, I'd have to decide what the text is they are referring to, and whether it can indeed be considered the Bible. There are so many renditions of the Bible!
And debating - I don't think that would ever come to an end.

I'm not suggesting you go on the offensive, but to arm yourself with knowledge and understanding, to counter the onslaught of your very being. This can only serve to strengthen you. The bible itself is not the issue, but the spiritual truths it contains is.

From the perspective of which scripture, and whose understanding of the scripture?

It doesn't matter. But if you are presenting a case to a fundamental christian, then the bible would primarily be the obvious choice, as any other scripture would not be given a consideration.

My reasons for thinking their god is not worth it are entirely selfish.
For one, I am finding the Bible (whatever that is), to be mostly a tedious, mystical reading, I might as well be reading it in Chinese, which I don't understand a word of. I have no (positive) attraction or affection for it.
For two, if all the Christians are the representatives of God, then I wish to have nothing to do with that God because I don't want to be like the majority of Christians is. Even the pope eats meat! And popular Christian preachers speak about the joys of sex in the fifties and later.
I don't personally know or have heard of not even one person who considers themselves a Christian, whom I would look up to and wish to be like.
(Of course I feel guilty for that, and for my selfish reasons.)

I know what you mean with regard to the tediousness.
But I found that reading other scripture (especially BG), my understanding
of God allowed me to understand the aspect of God in the bible.

As for the feeling of guilt, that could be reconciled by disciminating between
God and man. For example, when Jesus went into the synagogue and chastised the religious heirachy, could give clarity to your objections

I hate. this.

I know you do.
But it's either this, or "give up on trying to intelligently understand things and instead just wallow in my misery".

jan.

 

[wynn]

So in a sense this religion is the producer of atheists, and agnostics?

I think so.

We can only speculate how come that Christians generally behave so much like plain materialists while professing to have the one and only true religion. But I think that they maintain the notion of eternal damnation may be an important element in all this.

It seems to me that the notion of eternal damnation entails at least this:
1. It is possible to simultaneously be infinitely merciful and infinitely vindictive - and no sane human mind can comprehend or accept this without resorting to some serious intoxication or at least distraction.
2. The nature of God and the nature of the soul are in some crucial way different and unrelated, as if God would not be the origin of the souls. The Christian god makes sense to me if he is to be seen as a demigod, but not if he is to be seen as the Supreme Personality of Godhead.
Can you imagine a scenario where a person believes in a god whom she feels she is in some crucial way unrelated to? In my opinion, this can only play out either in some kind of deep frustration, or in materialism ("god is my order supplier").

No! No! No!
That would be wasteful.
Imagine if Mozart thought this way.

Well, Mozart had a talent and skill for music and was well-versed in it almost from the beginning of his embodied life. He was good at music long before he was even able to think much about his belief in God. He had something to life for/on long before he was even able to think much about his belief in God.
I, on the other hand, have no such talent and skill to live for/on. It seems to me the only option for me is to first develop some good understanding of God and myself, and then, provided with the mental peace this would bring, I may try to work on the few small talents that I do have.

There is a reason for the man in the streets actions.
He is an alcoholic.
You're not.

From the purport to BG 4.10:
Some people are too materially attached and therefore do not give attention to spiritual life, some of them want to merge into the supreme spiritual cause, and some of them disbelieve in everything, being angry at all sorts of spiritual speculation out of hopelessness. This last class of men take to the shelter of some kind of intoxication/.../

I may not be taking intoxicating substances, but I have a strong desire to numb myself out.

I'm not sure I understand your response.
What type of people do you regard as "normal"?

People who "just live", who are set in their spiritual path and who don't have problems on it.
Most people I know seem to be fully comfortable and secure on their spiritual path.

The Judge is Jesus/God. The day of wrath is Judgment Day, when it will be judged who will go to heaven and who to hell for all eternity. The strict judgment is about heaven and hell.

From the vedic perspective, this will mark the end of kali-yuga, when at
that time the characteristics of that age is all that will be.
Imagine a society where every point of expression is fully potent with the characteristics of kali-yuga, and nothing else.

And the judgment is then befitting the kali-yuga?

I'm not suggesting you go on the offensive, but to arm yourself with knowledge and understanding, to counter the onslaught of your very being. This can only serve to strengthen you. The bible itself is not the issue, but the spiritual truths it contains is.

In my experience, most Christians have a hearing problem! And they love to strawman. And they tell me that I can't understand the Bible (so there's no point in quoting from it) because I am not baptized and don't have the holy spirit that is necessary to understand the Bible.

It doesn't matter. But if you are presenting a case to a fundamental christian, then the bible would primarily be the obvious choice, as any other scripture would not be given a consideration.

I don't think I will get into a discussion with a Christian anytime soon, because they have a vibe that puts me off.

As for my "inner Christian"- do you suggest that I treat him with a biblical approach?

I know what you mean with regard to the tediousness.
But I found that reading other scripture (especially BG), my understanding
of God allowed me to understand the aspect of God in the bible.

Sure. Provided, of course, that you deem the BG as superior to the Bible, is it not so? (In which case, why waste time on the Bible?)

I know you do.
But it's either this, or "give up on trying to intelligently understand things and instead just wallow in my misery".

Yes ...