What does religion DO?

[parmalee]

Religion is all about moral and economic control, and subversion of females.

what, may i ask, is NOT about "moral and economic control, and subversion of females?"

all this seemed to have come about when humans became sedentary; likewise, they are virtually non-existent in both past and present-day nomadic cultures--and yes, i do mean the subversion of females as well.

true, the sort of religion of which you speak (i am assuming here) emerged from sedentary cultures; but the controlling and hierarchical aspects exist well outside the confines of "religion." are you suggesting, that sans religion, such states would not have come into existence? correlation, causation: you've got your work cut out for you if you wish to "prove" that one.

and in so far as "moral control" is concerned: do you believe that large populations of people, well beyond the tribal, do tend to be on their "best behaviour" at all times sans rules? if we are to accept that humans are pack social animals--which i do accept, though in recent generations they have come to behave a hell of a lot more like herd animals (chomsky got it right): what do pack animals do when directly confronted with other packs? shake hands and embrace them warmly?

 

[Jan Ardena]

"

Signal,

That "not" is redundant?

Using that logic, do you regard the "not" in "Thou shalt not kill", redundant as well?

And I don't think it is merely personal, it is part of our culture.

What is our culture?

Millions of people believe that eternal damnation is the fair punishment for not believing in God as the Christians direct; and the Christian rendition of the Bible is the source for this.

That's the thing, the bible is not the source of their belief, they just believe it
is.

Whether this is scriptural or not is by now beside the point. The idea became firmly a part of our culture and has some relevance in it.

Would you say that our culture is sympathetic to the ordinary person, outside
of their usefulness to serve it?

Would you say that a stay in hell removes anxieties?

If it did, I doubt that that would have been the reason.
What are the root sources for anxiety?
Are they external or internal?

I distinctly remember that moment, I was about four years old or so (I still had quite a big head), as I intently looked into the mirror, and wondered "What is this? How is this?" We had a big mirror in the hallway, and I often loked into it, up close.

Did the questions instantly arise as to whether or not you was in actual hell, heaven, or, in between?
Did it matter whether you believed in God or not?

jan.

 

[wynn]

That "not" is redundant?

Using that logic, do you regard the "not" in "Thou shalt not kill", redundant as well?

I meant that your sentence had several negatives, which made it a bit hard to understand. I don't know if how you wrote it was exactly how you intended it.

You said:

"It appears that even though you are aware that no scriptoral injuction claims that you will not be damned to hell purely for the act of not believing
in God, the claims of Christians continue to disrupt that awareness."

"It appears that even though you are aware that no scriptoral injuction claims that you will not be damned to hell purely for the act of not believing
in God"
=
"All scriptural injunctions that I am aware of claim that I will be damned to hell purely for the act of not beliving in God."

It seems to me that what you meant was:

"It appears that even though you are aware that no scriptoral injuction
claims that you will be damned to hell purely for the act of not believing
in God, the claims of Christians continue to disrupt that awareness."

This I agree with.

What is our culture?

Good point. We fail at school if we don't have some inherent conception of "our culture", yet it is apparently impossible to actually delineate what "our culture" is - even though the term is firmly embedded into our social discourse.
I'd say "our culture" is idealistic materialism - that idealistic conviction that happiness is to be found in matter.

That's the thing, the bible is not the source of their belief, they just believe it is.

Interesting! Millions of people have been tortured or killed in the name of the Bible and what it supposedly teaches. And to suggest that all that suffering was due to a mistranslation ... is extreme. It makes the suffering of all those people absurd!

If someone suffers, it should at least be for some valid cause, and not over a trifle.

Perhaps this is a reason why the belief in eternal damnation is still so strong and popular: because so much harm has been done in the name of this belief that to accept this belief as baseless, as something that arose due to a mistake or an agenda of a few, would force us to seriously rethink our existence here and the nature of suffering. And this, for some people, is too much to handle.

Would you say that our culture is sympathetic to the ordinary person, outside of their usefulness to serve it?

No, I think that to "our culture", the ordinary person is less than a number.

What are the root sources for anxiety?
Are they external or internal?

Good questions. I think they are basically internal, although anxiety can be triggered by hardship brought on one by nature or other living beings.

I think the root source for anxiety is ignorance - ignorance of how things really are, of who we really are, of how this universe really works.

Did the questions instantly arise as to whether or not you was in actual hell, heaven, or, in between?
Did it matter whether you believed in God or not?

I don't remember that. But I do remember that from early on, I was stigmatized as a pagan (I wasn't baptized) and told I would burn in hell for all eternity. In this sense, it seems my awareness of God and hell came instantly, as I was told those things by Christians.

 

[Grim_Reaper]

adam and eve's sons took wives.

If there were old adman and eve and there 2 sons were did the wives come from they had to come from adman and eve did they not so therefore inbreeding had to occur in the creation model.

 

[Grim_Reaper]

Whats the big deal about them marrying thier relatives? They are SO many things in the Bible that are more taboo than that. The Bible also says that Adam and Eve were over 900 years old by the time them died. A lot of people try to say that the time they measured in was not years but that does not account for the time spans of people closer to present who were only 90 when they died and have several children. Either they were 900 or the people who had several children were 2 or 3 years old. Just not an important fact, especially considering the Bible never directly says they were direct relative. Just that Cain left the land, and when He arrived in at the new place He married a woman who was from there.

She could not have been from there if there was adam and EVE there were no other people the bible says so right. So it is full contradiction and out right lies.

 

[flameofanor5]

i like to believe, offer material anyone can learn from by observing the literature.

i also find many good examples of wisdom and compassion within

but i saw this article

82% say faith causes tension in country where two thirds are not religious

so i wonder, is that correct?

Of course faith causes tension where it is not accepted! For the most part, an unaccepted thing will cause tension. In a society that is mostly religious, certain religions cause more tension, whereas others cause no tension at all. Culture is religion externalized, meaning, your culture reflects what you believe. If your society is mostly atheists, that will be reflected. If it is Muslim, Christian, Hindu, or whatever else, that will show.

we don't see that kind of 'news'?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/dec/23/religion.topstories3



with little 5-10 line posts, can anyone share' "what religions do?"

It depends on the culture of the society. If a society is Christian, then any religion such as Islam, or belief, like Atheism, will most likely cause tension. The same goes if a society is mostly Athiests, any religion there will cause tension.

please no political issues. just from your individual experience, so no one o) is called a bad guy by any other team

 

[Jan Ardena]

Signal,

I meant that your sentence had several negatives, which made it a bit hard to understand. I don't know if how you wrote it was exactly how you intended it.

My bad.

It seems to me that what you meant was:

"It appears that even though you are aware that no scriptoral injuction
claims that you will be damned to hell purely for the act of not believing
in God, the claims of Christians continue to disrupt that awareness."

That is what I meant.

I'd say "our culture" is idealistic materialism - that idealistic conviction that happiness is to be found in matter.

Interesting! Millions of people have been tortured or killed in the name of the Bible and what it supposedly teaches. And to suggest that all that suffering was due to a mistranslation ... is extreme. It makes the suffering of all those people absurd!

It seems to me that one cannot actually kill "in the name of the bible", without mistranslation. To kill somebody with the knowledge that they
are going to suffer without cesstation, in the the worst form regarded by man, because they do not believe like you, is a testament of non-belief (as opposed to mistranslation) in ones conviction. It also leads me to queston their understanding of "thou shalt not kill".

Perhaps this is a reason why the belief in eternal damnation is still so strong and popular: because so much harm has been done in the name of this belief that to accept this belief as baseless, as something that arose due to a mistake or an agenda of a few, would force us to seriously rethink our existence here and the nature of suffering. And this, for some people, is too much to handle.

Good point.

No, I think that to "our culture", the ordinary person is less than a number.

So what value does such a person have?
How easy is it to kill such units without consience?
How many lives are sent to the slaughter houses everyday, just for the
pleasure of the tongue?

I think the root source for anxiety is ignorance - ignorance of how things really are, of who we really are, of how this universe really works.

Which is why you will find anxiety anywhere.
Even those who seem to have it all (heaven), are filled with anxiety.

I don't remember that. But I do remember that from early on, I was stigmatized as a pagan (I wasn't baptized) and told I would burn in hell for all eternity.

It seems that all wicked regimes have at their heart, no compromise, you're either with us or against us. And if you're against us, your worthless.

jan.

 

[wynn]

It seems to me that one cannot actually kill "in the name of the bible", without mistranslation. To kill somebody with the knowledge that they
are going to suffer without cesstation, in the the worst form regarded by man, because they do not believe like you, is a testament of non-belief (as opposed to mistranslation) in ones conviction. It also leads me to queston their understanding of "thou shalt not kill".

I suppose it all comes down to what one thinks the nature of the Absolute Truth is.

So what value does such a person have?
How easy is it to kill such units without consience?
How many lives are sent to the slaughter houses everyday, just for the
pleasure of the tongue?

Sure ...

I'm not sure what you're getting at?

It seems that all wicked regimes have at their heart, no compromise, you're either with us or against us. And if you're against us, your worthless.

Yes. But for all practical purposes, do you think it is possible for things to be any different?
People having free will is bound to lead to such a state of affairs where the main principle is "he who is not with me is against me".

 

[Jan Ardena]

Signal,

I suppose it all comes down to what one thinks the nature of the Absolute Truth is.

If they are Christian, then they should be following in the footsteps
of Jesus, who didn't codemn people to hell for not believing.

Sure ...

I'm not sure what you're getting at?

you said;

Interesting! Millions of people have been tortured or killed in the name of the Bible and what it supposedly teaches.

and;

I'd say "our culture" is idealistic materialism - that idealistic conviction that happiness is to be found in matter.

My point is, there doesn't need to be a religious reason to kill and
torture people.
If we are seen as nothing more than animals, or, units of work, then we can
be treated like animals, and killing and torturing millions of people is no more significant than killing and torturing animals.

Yes. But for all practical purposes, do you think it is possible for things to be any different?

I think it's possible, but I doubt that it will.

jan.

 

[earth]

If they are Christian, then they should be following in the footsteps
of Jesus, who didn't codemn people to hell for not believing.

You're right the Christian belief in hell didn’t come from Jesus. The belief in hell was incorporated into the theology after Jesus. The Pharisees believed in the underworld inhabited by departed souls known as hades. Jesus was a Pharisee.

 

[wynn]

My point is, there doesn't need to be a religious reason to kill and torture people.

Sure, but when a religious reason is given, the killing and torturing is given a new significance.
If someone tortures a person and claims he is doing it in the name of God, it probably won't take that person very long to start to seriously think that God is evil.

If we are seen as nothing more than animals, or, units of work, then we can
be treated like animals, and killing and torturing millions of people is no more significant than killing and torturing animals.

It is happening as we speak ...

 

[Grim_Reaper]

Sure avoid the Inbreeding question as there is no answer for that is there and not just once it happened according to the Bible twice when good old Noah saved what he could and then proceeded to repopulate the world. That is why I don't believe a word the Bible says it is full of pedophilia incest murder rape child abuse the list goes on and on how can you take something seriously that says it is ok to bed your mother as long as it is to propagate the species please.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Signal,

Sure, but when a religious reason is given, the killing and torturing is given a new significance.

It shouldn't do.
Killing and torturing is significant, whoever does it.
Who would you prefer to be tortured by, religionist, or a secularist?

If someone tortures a person and claims he is doing it in the name of God, it probably won't take that person very long to start to seriously think that God is evil.

They may do, and they may not.
It depends on the circumstances.

It is happening as we speak ...

Do you think it is happening due to religion?

jan.

 

[wynn]

Sure, but when a religious reason is given, the killing and torturing is given a new significance.

It shouldn't do.
Killing and torturing is significant, whoever does it.
Who would you prefer to be tortured by, religionist, or a secularist?

It's not about preference, it just seems more potent to be hit in the name of God than to be hit by some random drunkard.

It is said sometimes that every living creature fears God - and perhaps it is this fear that makes violence in the name of God so much more significant.

The mere word "God" tends to fill me with awe and trembling. I have to deliberately detach myself and sort of zone out to engage in these discussions here.
Thou shalt not use the Lord's name in vain.

They may do, and they may not.
It depends on the circumstances.

I suppose so.

Do you think it is happening due to religion?

My fear says Yes. My wish says No.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Signal,

It's not about preference, it just seems more potent to be hit in the name of God than to be hit by some random drunkard.

Why?

[It is said sometimes that every living creature fears God - and perhaps it is this fear that makes violence in the name of God so much more significant.

Said by whom?

The mere word "God" tends to fill me with awe and trembling. I have to deliberately detach myself and sort of zone out to engage in these discussions here.
Thou shalt not use the Lord's name in vain.

Why?

My fear says Yes. My wish says No.

Why does your fear say yes?

jan.

 

[wynn]

It's not about preference, it just seems more potent to be hit in the name of God than to be hit by some random drunkard.

Why?

Like I said later - my argument is that every living creature fears God.

[It is said sometimes that every living creature fears God - and perhaps it is this fear that makes violence in the name of God so much more significant.

Said by whom?

Allright, you win.
I don't know where in scripture it is said so.

The mere word "God" tends to fill me with awe and trembling. I have to deliberately detach myself and sort of zone out to engage in these discussions here.
Thou shalt not use the Lord's name in vain.

Why?

Why - what? Why the Lord's name shall not be used in vain? Or why I am afraid of even the word God?

Why does your fear say yes?

Because I am afraid that God is insane and that the fire-and-brimstone Christians are right. If this is true, then I am facing immense suffering, for all eternity.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Signal,

Allright, you win.
I don't know where in scripture it is said so.

Lol!
I apologise if i come across as competing.
My point is, i think it would benefit you,
to chase the sourse of these anxieties, and strip them
down to ther origins.

Why - what? Why the Lord's name shall not be used in vain? Or why I am afraid of even the word God?

Both, i guess.

Because I am afraid that God is insane and that the fire-and-brimstone Christians are right. If this is true, then I am facing immense suffering, for all eternity.

Do you actually think they are right?
If yes, why?
If you don't know, then why not test their knowledge?
If no, then why cling to their notions?

 

[wynn]

I apologise if i come across as competing.

That's okay.
I see spirituality as a competition anyway.

My point is, i think it would benefit you,
to chase the sourse of these anxieties, and strip them
down to ther origins.

Yes, and I have been doing that. But what haunts me is the feeling that I am being abnormal for doing so. I mean, what normal person would spend several hours weekly, sometimes daily, to figure out the sources of their anxieties and try to do something about them? Normal people just live, don't they ...

Why - what? Why the Lord's name shall not be used in vain? Or why I am afraid of even the word God?

Both, i guess.

Do you know, for example, Mozart's Requiem? Dies irae - Dies irae - dies illae. Quando tremor est futurus quando iudex est venturus cuncta stricte discussurus. The day of wrath - they day of tears. Oh what what trembling awaits when the judge comes with his strict judgment. - That, with that music, as loud as can be, that goes through my bones and makes me shiver and it feels paralyzing: that is my primary image of God.

Because I am afraid that God is insane and that the fire-and-brimstone Christians are right. If this is true, then I am facing immense suffering, for all eternity.

Do you actually think they are right?
If yes, why?
If you don't know, then why not test their knowledge?
If no, then why cling to their notions?

I wish they would be wrong. But fear has a propensitiy for making things seem real that perhaps aren't real. But the fearful person cannot tell the difference.

Testing their knowledge seems impossible to me. This is where I am stuck.
I'd have to put my life at stake and give up all other spiritual pursuits - but I don't think their god is worth it. There I said it. I think their god is not worth it for me to strive to spend eternity with, because being with that god, I might as well go to hell.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Signal,

Yes, and I have been doing that. But what haunts me is the feeling that I am being abnormal for doing so.

It seems you are in a never ending world of insecurity, doubt, and other things that keep your self-esteem at a nice low level.
Sorry for being blunt, but that's what I observe.

I mean, what normal person would spend several hours weekly, sometimes daily, to figure out the sources of their anxieties and try to do something about them? Normal people just live, don't they ...

I don't know, what are "normal" people?

Do you know, for example, Mozart's Requiem? Dies irae - Dies irae - dies illae. Quando tremor est futurus quando iudex est venturus cuncta stricte discussurus. The day of wrath - they day of tears. Oh what what trembling awaits when the judge comes with his strict judgment. - That, with that music, as loud as can be, that goes through my bones and makes me shiver and it feels paralyzing: that is my primary image of God.

Big props to Mozart, he could hold a tune, couldn't he?
Mozart came from a strict religious background (probably why he was so good).

Tell me. Who is the "judge"?
What is the day of wrath?
And what is the strict judgement?

I wish they would be wrong.

Why wish?
Study the scripture they purport to be the
source of their understanding. Then debate them.
If they continue with stuff that does not coroberate
with said document. Then you know they're out of order.

But fear has a propensitiy for making things seem real that perhaps aren't real. But the fearful person cannot tell the difference.

It also has the propensity to reveal reality, pretty sharpish.

Testing their knowledge seems impossible to me. This is where I am stuck.
I'd have to put my life at stake and give up all other spiritual pursuits - but I don't think their god is worth it. There I said it. I think their god is not worth it for me to strive to spend eternity with, because being with that god, I might as well go to hell.

Okay.
Now explain why their god is not worth it, and why being with that god is
non-different to being in hell.
Explain it from the perspective of scripture.

jan.

 

[wynn]

It seems you are in a never ending world of insecurity, doubt, and other things that keep your self-esteem at a nice low level.
Sorry for being blunt, but that's what I observe.

That is allright, and I agree.

Perhaps the idea of eternal damnation has been introduced because being such a formidable double bind (ie. it presents the believer with the task of reconciling God as being infinitely merciful and loving with being infinitely vindictive), it ensures that people will not reach any security or wellbeing in their theistic practice and will thus forever feel indebted to the religious institution, which in turn ensures the institution power and persistence.

On the other hand, perhaps the idea of eternal damnation has such staying power among other reasons also because being so difficult to resolve, it makes people frustrated, and then lazy and complacent, and thus seeking enjoyment in this world, trying to lord it over material nature.

So those who have some belief in eternal damnation are actually trying to lord it over material nature in two ways: one is the basic rebellion against God; the other is due to a particular understanding of theistic doctrine that makes life seem so hard and so insane that people resort to (intense) sense enjoyment.

I guess this is what I have: I am complacent about my misery. I have accepted, for some reason - probably because I was forced and because I like things to be easy - that (my) intelligence cannot penetrate and resolve the apparent contradictions in the way God is often presented by Christians; and that I might therefore as well give up on trying to intelligently understand things and instead just wallow in my misery.

I see a man in the street sometimes, for many years. He looks visibly disturbed, he is an alcoholic, very dirty. He speaks of God, praises Him. A little later, he completely changes the tone and swears and curses God. And then back to praising, and back to cursing. Ambivalently like that.

I think I am afraid that if I tried to get a clearer understanding of God, I would end up like that man. And that therefore, it would be better if I just somehow tried to accept eternal damnation and everything I have so far been taught about God by Christians. And not poke into what seems to be a hornet's nest.

I don't know, what are "normal" people?

Yes ...

Do you know, for example, Mozart's Requiem? Dies irae - Dies irae - dies illae. Quando tremor est futurus quando iudex est venturus cuncta stricte discussurus. The day of wrath - they day of tears. Oh what what trembling awaits when the judge comes with his strict judgment. - That, with that music, as loud as can be, that goes through my bones and makes me shiver and it feels paralyzing: that is my primary image of God.

Big props to Mozart, he could hold a tune, couldn't he?
Mozart came from a strict religious background (probably why he was so good).

Tell me. Who is the "judge"?
What is the day of wrath?
And what is the strict judgement?

The Judge is Jesus/God. The day of wrath is Judgment Day, when it will be judged who will go to heaven and who to hell for all eternity. The strict judgment is about heaven and hell.

Why wish?
Study the scripture they purport to be the
source of their understanding. Then debate them.
If they continue with stuff that does not coroberate
with said document. Then you know they're out of order.

But this seems so hopeless! First of all, I'd have to decide what the text is they are referring to, and whether it can indeed be considered the Bible. There are so many renditions of the Bible!
And debating - I don't think that would ever come to an end.

Okay.
Now explain why their god is not worth it, and why being with that god is
non-different to being in hell.
Explain it from the perspective of scripture.

From the perspective of which scripture, and whose understanding of the scripture?

My reasons for thinking their god is not worth it are entirely selfish.
For one, I am finding the Bible (whatever that is), to be mostly a tedious, mystical reading, I might as well be reading it in Chinese, which I don't understand a word of. I have no (positive) attraction or affection for it.
For two, if all the Christians are the representatives of God, then I wish to have nothing to do with that God because I don't want to be like the majority of Christians is. Even the pope eats meat! And popular Christian preachers speak about the joys of sex in the fifties and later.
I don't personally know or have heard of not even one person who considers themselves a Christian, whom I would look up to and wish to be like.
(Of course I feel guilty for that, and for my selfish reasons.)

I hate this.