What do atheists think that "to know God" means?

Regardless of your personal preferences, uttering racial slurs is as bad as uttering religious slurs.

In this post, we have had no trouble saying highly derisive things about the intelligence and sanity of anyone who believes in God of any sort.

That is why LG's contribution is not inappropriate. He's drawing an analogy.

We kicked open that door. And if anyone doesn't like it, they should seriously consider what they are doing in a discussion wherein people are tearing people a new one based on any one of race, creed, color, religion or sex.

Knock it off, Dave. No one here has uttered a religious slur, and challenging a philosophy (or ridiculing it, for that matter) is not the same as ridiculing or insulting a race. You are being ridiculous.

That said, everyone riding LG over this cartoon needs to knock it off as well. He clearly didn't mean to imply that the message of the drawing was correct. Stop looking for reasons to overreact on the behalf of others. Political correctness is absurd, and I hate to see people who allege themselves to be atheists and freethinkers participating in one of society's most culturally-retarded exercises.

If you don't like what LG has to say, do what I do, and put him on ignore. Ignoring disruptive and intellectually bankrupt posters is the only way to make them go away.
 
DaveC426913


Regardless of your personal preferences, uttering racial slurs is as bad as uttering religious slurs.

Yes, but there have been no religious slurs here. Disagreement, argument and even ridicule are not slurs.

In this post, we have had no trouble saying highly derisive things about the intelligence and sanity of anyone who believes in God of any sort.

Please point out instances where those thing have been said about god belief. There have been many idiotic arguments put forward and much derision of those arguments, but I have seen most on this thread specifically point out that belief in a god is a personal right and is not a problem.

That is why LG's contribution is not inappropriate. He's drawing an analogy.

Horse bisquits! He could have made his point and not been racist in his choice of cartoon. I would have, for sure, because I would not want the taint of being a racist associated with anything I did.

We kicked open that door. And if anyone doesn't like it, they should seriously consider what they are doing in a discussion wherein people are tearing people a new one based on any one of race, creed, color, religion or sex.

We did not ask for racist cartoons and there is no equivalency in what was going on in this thread and the offensive cartoon he posted

JDawg

That said, everyone riding LG over this cartoon needs to knock it off as well. He clearly didn't mean to imply that the message of the drawing was correct. Stop looking for reasons to overreact on the behalf of others. Political correctness is absurd, and I hate to see people who allege themselves to be atheists and freethinkers participating in one of society's most culturally-retarded exercises.

Not going to happen unless and until LG acknowledges his offensive behavior. If he did not mean to appear racist he failed miserably, that is exactly how he appeared. He owns his behavior and actions until he disowns them.

And PC is not culturally retarded, the lack of such self correcting pressure is what allowed the rampant and murderous racism in the 20th century to exist and we saw where that led. If the cost of not living in societies where such genocide can happen is putting up with criticism of the attitudes that make such evil possible it is a small price to pay compared to the fate of over 15 million people in WW2 alone.

If you don't like what LG has to say, do what I do, and put him on ignore. Ignoring disruptive and intellectually bankrupt posters is the only way to make them go away.

Don't like the look of that strange mole on your leg? Ignore it. But you have only yourself to blame if you die of skin cancer. And racism is a cancer on society, ignoring it has much the same results.

Grumpy:cool:
 
Not going to happen unless and until LG acknowledges his offensive behavior. If he did not mean to appear racist he failed miserably, that is exactly how he appeared. He owns his behavior and actions until he disowns them.

You are simply looking for a reason to be offended. If you actually read his post--which I'm sure you did--you would know that his use of the cartoon was to demonstrate what he perceives to be the fallacy of atheists defining god. He says this practice is like racism, in that racists present their own definition of evolution. So what he actually does is criticize racism for promoting a false definition of evolution, and even goes so far as to say that it would not surprise him if many racists actually believed this definition, thereby insinuating that many racists are ill-informed and/or uneducated.

But you knew this already.

And PC is not culturally retarded, the lack of such self correcting pressure is what allowed the rampant and murderous racism in the 20th century to exist and we saw where that led. If the cost of not living in societies where such genocide can happen is putting up with criticism of the attitudes that make such evil possible it is a small price to pay compared to the fate of over 15 million people in WW2 alone.

Here comes that spurious and superficial history education again...

A lack of political correctness was not responsible for racial prejudice in this country, nor was it the cause of the Final Solution.


Don't like the look of that strange mole on your leg? Ignore it. But you have only yourself to blame if you die of skin cancer. And racism is a cancer on society, ignoring it has much the same results.

Grumpy:cool:

I don't disagree. But there was nothing racist about what LG wrote. I find it troubling that I have to say this, but, you very well know that there wasn't.
 
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JDawg

You are simply looking for a reason to be offended.

I'm offended, LG gave me reason to be so.

If you actually read his post--which I'm sure you did--you would know that his use of the cartoon was to demonstrate what he perceives to be the fallacy of atheists defining god.

Yes, he dressed that turd up with some frosting, but it's still a turd, not a cupcake. I could have made exactly the same point using some other cartoon without the racist baggage, so could you have done. So could he, but he chose not to. It was offensive and a person with character would have appologized by now.

And none of the atheists on this thread have defined god for theists at all, though the theists have created strawmen of what atheism means.

Here comes that spurious and superficial history education again...

You've run into that buzzsaw several times now, I don't speak about what I don't know. In this case I lived the effects of racism on societies.

A lack of political correctness was not responsible for racial prejudice in this country, nor was it the cause of the Final Solution.

Yes, the lack of any sensitivity to the victims of predjudice and discrimination led directly to the Holocaust. Sensitivity to these things and pushback on them is what PC is, so lack of PC allowed the Holocaust to occur. The same goes for the strange fruit sprouting from the trees throughout the South. Or as one protestant pastor put it...

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak outbecause I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak outbecause I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak outbecause I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


Martin Niemöller

Speaking out about these things is exactly what PC is. The lack of PC(speaking out)in society is what allowed these things to happen.

I don't disagree. But there was nothing racist about what LG wrote. I find it troubling that I have to say this, but, you very well know that there wasn't.

I find it disturbing you don't see the racism in what he did, I do. Your track record of thinking you know what I think is rather dismal.

Grumpy:cool:
 
lightgigantic



Do you know what context means?
Yes
The question is whether you do

In the context of this thread your post was injecting racism where it did not belong.
Only if the cartoon was presented in the context of "this is the way things really are" ... as opposed to "just look at the ways some people (fallaciously) construct ideas the way they do" .... which is why we have to ask whether you really know what context means or if you just have some problem of going out on a limb to be offended for the sake of clocking up posts on sci or whatever
Can you point out where in this thread racism raised it's ugly head as a topic until you posted that cartoon?
funnily enough it begins with you.

You might want to ask yourself why you are alone in this tirade against racism
We now have the question of why you went looking for a racist cartoon to post in the first place.
Because it poses categories that construct a parody that everyone can (hopefully) agree are false.
It was important to chose such an airtight example because you don't have such a wonderful track record of keeping a thread on topic
Sans a reason or admission that it was inappropriate we are left with the the fact that you posted a racist cartoon in an entirely inappropriate place and injected racism where it had not previously been a topic.
No more than the web site I pulled the pic from is racist

And we all know what kind of people do those sort of things, don't we? Here's your sign. You own it until you disown it.
The funny thing is the sign has your hand writing all over it.

In a context where racism is being discussed, posting such cartoons as illustration is appropriate. It would be aproppriate if we had been discussing racism in this thread, it is racism if inserted in places where it is inaproppriate(like in a thread discussing what atheists think "knowing god" means).

Grumpy:cool:
Oh you mean that if there is a racist picture posted with squiggly little symbols called the alphabet, we should pay attention to the alphabet parts since they might explain why the image is there in the first place?
Now that certainly sounds like clever thinking, doesn't it?
 
I'm offended, LG gave me reason to be so.

As I have and others have pointed out, no he did not. I sincerely hope a moderator can step in and put this matter to rest, because you are making wildly unfounded claims about LG, and this needs to be addressed by someone with the power to make you stop.

Yes, he dressed that turd up with some frosting, but it's still a turd, not a cupcake. I could have made exactly the same point using some other cartoon without the racist baggage, so could you have done. So could he, but he chose not to. It was offensive and a person with character would have appologized by now.

A person of character would not have taken the cartoon out of context and used it to insinuate that its poster was a racist.

Whether or not you are uncomfortable with depictions of racist propaganda is irrelevant, because LG was using that propaganda to lampoon racists. And you full well know this, but choose consciously to pretend you don't, and insinuate that LG has some nefarious agenda. As I said before, your behavior should be subject to moderation.

And none of the atheists on this thread have defined god for theists at all, though the theists have created strawmen of what atheism means.

I agree, but the accuracy of LG's argument is irrelevant to your complaint. What matters was his intent, which clearly was not racial, nor meant to offend. The only way to construe it as such is to intentionally take the cartoon out of context, which is what you have done here.

[quoe]You've run into that buzzsaw several times now, I don't speak about what I don't know. In this case I lived the effects of racism on societies.[/quote]

The only way in which that would be relevant is if you are arguing that your exposure to such violence and prejudice has made you sensitive to the point of irrationality. Is that what you're saying?

Yes, the lack of any sensitivity to the victims of predjudice and discrimination led directly to the Holocaust.
Sensitivity to these things and pushback on them is what PC is, so lack of PC allowed the Holocaust to occur. The same goes for the strange fruit sprouting from the trees throughout the South. Or as one protestant pastor put it...

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak outbecause I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak outbecause I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak outbecause I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.


Martin Niemöller

Speaking out about these things is exactly what PC is. The lack of PC(speaking out)in society is what allowed these things to happen.

This kind of reductionist piffle is precisely the kind of thing one would expect to hear from a source whose understanding of the events has all the depth of a History Channel documentary.

It's also inaccurate in its portrayal of political correctness, which is not the combating of ignorance and prejudice, but the villainizing of speech or art or culture that might offend someone else, with no consideration for context. It is by definition a superficial practice; it is the suspension of a Golf Channel anchor for saying the only way the field was going to stop Tiger Woods was by lynching him; it is the ostracizing of Don Imus for calling a group of college basketball players "Nappy-headed hoes."

It is the outcry following Billy Crystal's portrayal of Sammy Davis Jr. at the Oscars.


I find it disturbing you don't see the racism in what he did, I do. Your track record of thinking you know what I think is rather dismal.

Grumpy:cool:

No you don't. You don't see the racism either. This is just a stunt.
 
lightgigantic

Can you point out where in this thread racism raised it's ugly head as a topic until you posted that cartoon? ”

funnily enough it begins with you.

So I made you post racist crap? Sorry, that was your choice. You could have made the point with a non-racist cartoon, but you didn't. It was offensive(maybe deliberately so?). Even for you this was a new low. I simply called you on the tactic.

We now have the question of why you went looking for a racist cartoon to post in the first place. ”

Because it poses categories that construct a parody that everyone can (hopefully) agree are false.
It was important to chose such an airtight example because you don't have such a wonderful track record of keeping a thread on topic

Again, it's all my fault. You don't have the character to admit your own culpability and error and appologize for your own actions. It was that bad, ol' Grumpy that forced you to post racist crap.

No more than the web site I pulled the pic from is racist

Context. If the website is discussing racism it is apropo, it was not in a thread where racism was not part of the discussion. Of course it had the added bonus of conflating atheists and racists, right?

The funny thing is the sign has your hand writing all over it.

Yep, I calls 'em like I sees 'em. Only you can remove it, though.

Oh you mean that if there is a racist picture posted with squiggly little symbols called the alphabet, we should pay attention to the alphabet parts since they might explain why the image is there in the first place?
Now that certainly sounds like clever thinking, doesn't it?

No, this paragraph is gibberish. In this case there is no justification for your racist cartoon as we were not discussing racism. It was unneccessary, offensive and inaproppriate. You probably went looking for the most offensive cartoon you could find to compare with the arguments atheists have made and it bit you. Look, it had monkeys and evolution and lies. Perfect.

Grumpy:cool:
 
lightgigantic



So I made you post racist crap? Sorry, that was your choice. You could have made the point with a non-racist cartoon, but you didn't. It was offensive(maybe deliberately so?). Even for you this was a new low. I simply called you on the tactic.



Again, it's all my fault. You don't have the character to admit your own culpability and error and appologize for your own actions. It was that bad, ol' Grumpy that forced you to post racist crap
Perhaps those comments would make sense if you could post the parts of my post that are racist ... aside from the picture of course ... since even you now seem capable of admitting that the picture doesn't establish its own context


Context. If the website is discussing racism it is apropo, it was not in a thread where racism was not part of the discussion. Of course it had the added bonus of conflating atheists and racists, right?
Its precisely your inability to address the parts where I do address racism that currently has you looking like a goofball

:shrug:




No, this paragraph is gibberish. In this case there is no justification for your racist cartoon as we were not discussing racism. It was unneccessary, offensive and inaproppriate. You probably went looking for the most offensive cartoon you could find to compare with the arguments atheists have made and it bit you. Look, it had monkeys and evolution and lies. Perfect.

Grumpy:cool:
I already explained why I chose it ... guess you missed that bit of contextualizing information ... again

;)
 
lightgigantic

Perhaps those comments would make sense if you could post the parts of my post that are racist ... aside from the picture of course ... since even you now seem capable of admitting that the picture doesn't establish its own context

... aside from the picture of course ...:bravo:

Priceless.

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

Its precisely your inability to address the parts where I do address racism that currently has you looking like a goofball

And is precisely your choice of cartoon that has you looking like a racist.

I already explained why I chose it ... guess you missed that bit of contextualizing information ... again

Didn't miss it, saw it for the load of male bovine poo that it was. You posted the picture to try to conflate racist's tactics to those used by the atheists in this thread. Falsely, I would point out. It does fit with your behavior and prior posts. Monkeys, evolution and lies oh my, what a perfect cartoon!

Grumpy:cool:
 
lightgigantic



... aside from the picture of course ...:bravo:

Priceless.

Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?



And is precisely your choice of cartoon that has you looking like a racist.



Didn't miss it, saw it for the load of male bovine poo that it was. You posted the picture to try to conflate racist's tactics to those used by the atheists in this thread. Falsely, I would point out. It does fit with your behavior and prior posts. Monkeys, evolution and lies oh my, what a perfect cartoon!

Grumpy:cool:

if you think its racist take it up with the mods (since its clearly a breach of forum rules)
I dare you.
 
It is borderline racist and an irrelevant addition to the thread. However, I am not going to take any action on it in this instance.
 
It is borderline racist and an irrelevant addition to the thread. However, I am not going to take any action on it in this instance.

For crying out loud, he was posting an example of parody, given that they were talking about parody and satire and how people sometimes operate out of a parody of religion and claim the parody to be an accurate representation.


This is what he said:


That says absolutely nothing about parody establishing core ideas about the said parties concept of the subject. Such is parody that it doesn't even require that the said party even believe it or have evidence.

eg


China%20racist%20T2%20copie.jpg


The lack of evidence of African people being apes doesn't somehow undercut or prevent the viewer from comprehending key values in the author's assessment of the situation

One could even compare the parodies of religious ideas and events as composed and advocated by theists and atheists alike to discern key values that distinguish how both parties conceive the subject
 
For crying out loud, he was posting an example of parody, given that they were talking about parody and satire and how people sometimes operate out of a parody of religion and claim the parody to be an accurate representation.


This is what he said:

Agreed. But the either point of a parody is to ridicule by analogy, not represent a satirical version of our own ideas - and yet LG is trying, again, the have his cake and eat it too.
 
Agreed. But the either point of a parody is to ridicule by analogy, not represent a satirical version of our own ideas - and yet LG is trying, again, the have his cake and eat it too.
I was actually explaining the construction of parody and how it need not rest on precepts of evidence and what not in order for one to fathom the intent of the author .

This intention of the author of parody often culminates in a representations of the said subject that are unique to the the general needs, interests and concerns of the author's group.

So for instance, a racist can parody the inhabitants of a country by suspending their ideas about evolution to present something that is typical and unique to racists ....... just like atheists can parody religion by suspending their ideas about the nature of the universe to present something that is typical and unique to atheists.

Hence in both cases parody, aside from making jokes at the expense of the subject, also reveal characteristics, ideas and views unique to the said party.

IOW if it was technically impossible to talk about racist concepts of race or atheist concepts of god, neither party would have access to the tool of parody.

Obviously that is not the case.
 
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lightgigantic

if you think its racist take it up with the mods (since its clearly a breach of forum rules)
I dare you.

I brought it to their attention the second you posted it. They have decided to cut you some slack. Go and sin no more, so to say. Very Christian of them.
(Ironic, isn't it, that atheists can sometimes BE better Christians than some who claim the name).

I've said, directly to your face(electronically speaking, of course), what I think of your attrocious behavior. I still have the same conclusions about what that behavior says about your character(or rather severe shortage of same). You still wear that sign and will until you do something to erase it.

Maybe you learned something, but I have my doubts about that possibility. Were I you I would not repeat such behavior, but thankfully I am not you or anything like you. Be thankful it was not I who judged your behavior vis-a-vis this forum, but you should keep that word "borderline" in mind, others saw the racism in your post, just not to the degree that I saw it(but it was a near thing, thus "borderline"). It's a touchy subject to me and your post offended me as did your motives for posting it. A person with character would appologize for such offense, a person who is a character...well, you have your sign.

Grumpy:cool:
 
wynn

For crying out loud, he was posting an example of parody, given that they were talking about parody and satire and how people sometimes operate out of a parody of religion and claim the parody to be an accurate representation.

He posted a RACIST example of a parody. Had he used a little discretion and discernment I'm quite sure he could have found a less offensive example to make the same point and we would be talking about that point and not the offensive cartoon(and the motives for posting such offensive material). Do you think Jesus would post such crap? Then no one who claims to follow him should either.

JDawg

You can't be serious.

Explain yourself. What about his post is "borderline racist?"

The cartoon. And I think JR is quite serious, if more forgiving than I would be in this case. But I respect his judgement and consider the case dealt with, but not closed. The whole thing would have passed if LG had just done a mia culpa but I guess that was too much to expect.

lightgigantic

Borderline racist and irrelevant?
Yes I think you have explain yourself ....

You might not like the explanation and I wouldn't push your luck, dude. Just quietly walk out of the courtroom before the judge changes his mind. Better yet, appologize for any offense you may have caused and say you won't do anything like that again(it would ease you back a bit from that borderline).

I was actually explaining the construction of parody and how it need not rest on precepts of evidence and what not in order for one to fathom the intent of the author .

This intention of the author of parody often culminates in a representations of the said subject that are unique to the the general needs, interests and concerns of the author's group.

So for instance, a racist can parody the inhabitants of a country by suspending their ideas about evolution to present something that is typical and unique to racists ....... just like atheists can parody religion by suspending their ideas about the nature of the universe to present something that is typical and unique to atheists.

Hence in both cases parody, aside from making jokes at the expense of the subject, also reveal characteristics, ideas and views unique to the said party.

IOW if it was technically impossible to talk about racist concepts of race or atheist concepts of god, neither party would have access to the tool of parody.

Obviously that is not the case.

Why compare atheists to racists if the intent is not to offend. The same point could have been made in a less offensive way, but it seems the offensiveness was a bonus. It was the maliciousness of the choice that is the point, a point that crapped all over any point you were trying to make otherwise.

Grumpy:cool:
 
He posted a RACIST example of a parody. Had he used a little discretion and discernment I'm quite sure he could have found a less offensive example to make the same point and we would be talking about that point and not the offensive cartoon(and the motives for posting such offensive material). Do you think Jesus would post such crap? Then no one who claims to follow him should either.

Let's settle this first:

You seem to think that LG is a Christian, a "follower of Jesus."

If you do think that, can you tell us how come, based on what?
 
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