What do atheists think that "to know God" means?

[Sarkus]

I put it in bold for you and even explained why

Your explanation was a conditional... followed by much that remains unclear.

My point is that your discussions about what core components reality can and cannot house and which are essential/non-essential are mysterious, unexplained and not evidenced...

Have I claimed them as fact? I have merely been exploring what I consider to be the rational position, based on what IS explained and what IS evidenced.

... which tends to be the three big draw cards you use in debunking your estimations of theistic claims (that the mything the point)

I'll call them as I see them.
And I still fail to understand the "mything" thing.

If you can't establish the core principle of reality you can't discuss its existence sans "anything anyone cares to mention" ... thats the missing the point part

Within the context that it was discussed there was no need to establish core principles.
So what, exactly, is your issue?

 

[Sarkus]

Someone once said that the difference between a philosopher and a religious man is that a philosopher deals in expendable theories, while a religious man sets his life on the line.

I am not religious: I like my life too much for that.

The thing is - I wouldn't ask you (or anyone else) that to begin with.

Sure - but the principle still holds. Just imagine the aim was something you felt that strongly about.

When you think about it - which questions are really worth asking? Very few.

Perhaps. Perhaps even none at all. Maybe the gain is not in what you ask but that you ask in the first place.

But this suggests that you're not clear about what you want or need.

I'm clear what I want/need - at least to myself.

You're like someone who wanders into a store, with too much money on his hands, and then seeks to be convinced of the usefulness of this or that item so that he can purchase it.

A better analogy would be that I'm a runner who needs to keep running, but doesn't really care where. Although I may be partial to river-views.
If I find something worth stopping for... all the better.

I suppose that for some people, this is just the situation they are in ...

Sure - while I run I might meet people who want to reach a certain destination. They run to get somewhere; I run because I enjoy it. Or so the analogy goes.

 

[wynn]

Sure - but the principle still holds. Just imagine the aim was something you felt that strongly about.

Sure. And so far, things transpired in such a manner that when I did prusue something that was really important to me, I was never mislead and there were never any major problems.

It's when I dabble and fiddle and flirt and try to enjoy myself - thats when things go awry.

A better analogy would be that I'm a runner who needs to keep running, but doesn't really care where. Although I may be partial to river-views.
If I find something worth stopping for... all the better.
Sure - while I run I might meet people who want to reach a certain destination. They run to get somewhere; I run because I enjoy it. Or so the analogy goes.

 

[Sarkus]

Sure. And so far, things transpired in such a manner that when I did prusue something that was really important to me, I was never mislead and there were never any major problems.

It's when I dabble and fiddle and flirt and try to enjoy myself - thats when things go awry.

So you did have a problem, in that what they were leading to you was not where you wanted to be... in that you wanted more than they were able to give you.
If I tell you that if you walk north you will reach X, and you do walk north and do reach X, I guess you're not being mislead - unless you actually wanted to reach Y which was in the East.

And yes, that was the story I was thinking of.

 

[wynn]

So you did have a problem, in that what they were leading to you was not where you wanted to be... in that you wanted more than they were able to give you.
If I tell you that if you walk north you will reach X, and you do walk north and do reach X, I guess you're not being mislead - unless you actually wanted to reach Y which was in the East.

And yes, that was the story I was thinking of.

What are you talking about??


I said that when I was dabbling, fiddling, flirting and trying to enjoy myself that things went wrong. In these situations, the problem was my impure intention.

 

[Sarkus]

What are you talking about??


I said that when I was dabbling, fiddling, flirting and trying to enjoy myself that things went wrong. In these situations, the problem was my impure intention.

I know what you said.
Do you not want to enjoy yourself?
Does the place you want to reach not allow you to enjoy yourself?
And what exactly is it "impure" with regard to?

If you do want to enjoy yourself, and the place you want to reach (or were at) does not allow for enjoyment... then perhaps you were/are in the wrong place?

 

[wynn]

There the teeeeny weeeeny problem that in this Universe, it seems it is not really possible to enjoy oneself.

One can sure get an imitation of it, for some time, but eventually, it all gets really boring and empty and a matter of teeth-gritting. Which is why in order to squeeze some pleasure out of experiences, one ordinarily has to be on the run all the time.

 

[Grumpy]

wynn

There the teeeeny weeeeny problem that in this Universe, it seems it is not really possible to enjoy oneself.

One can sure get an imitation of it, for some time, but eventually, it all gets really boring and empty and a matter of teeth-gritting. Which is why in order to squeeze some pleasure out of experiences, one ordinarily has to be on the run all the time.

Seems more the difference between how the liberal and conservative mind works to me. I thouroughly enjoy my life even with the suffering that comes with being alive.

But let's look at the so-called problems.

Pain is unpleasant, but those born with no sense of pain usually don't live long and suffer from things much worse than the discomfort of pain.

Getting old is unpleasant but if we didn't we could have no children. Getting old is a necessary part of life, not a problem for it.

Dying is a necessary part of life, if nothing died we'd be shoulder deep in people, bugs and germs.

And none of these things are a problem for existence, it's only subjectively a problem for us.

Grumpy

 

[wynn]

And none of these things are a problem for existence, it's only subjectively a problem for us.

And we are not part of existence, or what?