what defines marriage?

[Lori_7]

a personal relationship with god that renders religion and secular contracts obsolete is what i aspire to, and what i believe is attainable through christ. and i believe his kingdom will be void of any such things.

 

[river-wind]

no. which says that it was the sex that was of most importance, not the ceremony.

But the sex happens after the couple is considered married. She is called his wife before they have sex.

The Talmud is clear about sex outside of marriage as sinful - what is your take on that?

people stand on that altar and recite what they don't know about, and what they don't believe in, every day. you think that makes a marriage?

I think that makes a marriage according to the culture we are talking about.

What about a couple unable to have sex due to physical malady? Are they unable to actually get married because of their lack of physical ability?

that is marriage.

I'd say that is love, and is wholly independent from marriage.

a personal relationship with god that renders religion and secular contracts obsolete is what i aspire to, and what i believe is attainable through christ. and i believe his kingdom will be void of any such things.

That's great. But that has little to do with what constitutes marriage, does it? unless you are stating that you feel that marriage is a secular contract that should be eliminated.

 

[S.A.M.]

But the sex happens after the couple is considered married. She is called his wife before they have sex.

I see what Lori's getting at:

But a Christian wedding ceremony can be annulled if there is no consummation. The sex itself is the marriage - the ceremony is meaningless without it.

 

[river-wind]

I see her point as well. However, only if the sex occurs after the wedding, i.e. within the bounds of matrimony, is it not considered sinful.

Sex is not marriage per the Jewish customs, it was the fulfillment, the purpose, of marriage. It is possible to have sex without marriage, and it is possible to have marriage without sex.

 

[S.A.M.]

I see her point as well. However, only if the sex occurs after the wedding, i.e. within the bounds of matrimony, is it not considered sinful.

Doesn't Christianity recognise common law wives? Are civil/other religious marriages sinful under Christian law?

 

[river-wind]

hmmm, good question.

I know that the Catholic church refuses to recognize non-catholic marriages. Many sects of both christianity and juaism require that both members of a potential marriage be of the faith marrying them.

 

[S.A.M.]

The Catholic church is a body of interpretation, like the Talmud. But what does Christianity say about marriage?

 

[river-wind]

Who is the authority of what Christianity says? A particular sect? The fathers of Nicaea?

The churches generally say premarital sex is sinful, as do the synagogues. The Talmud says it is sinful; the fathers of nicaea didn't include the Talmud in the bible, but they did include numerous references to fornication as a sin. The understanding of that term, in the culture that wrote the old and new testaments, included sex outside of the marriage ceremony.

Sex was an important part of marriage, but even according to Paul, there could be fornication.
"Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."

In other words, sex outside of marriage is fornication. Marriage, in the terms of Paul's culture, includes a public ceremony where the entrants announce their covenant with God. Sex, once marriage has been performed, is acceptable.

 

[S.A.M.]

Who is the authority of what Christianity says? A particular sect? The fathers of Nicaea?

The churches generally say premarital sex is sinful, as do the synagogues. The Talmud says it is sinful; the fathers of nicaea didn't include the Talmud in the bible, but they did include numerous references to fornication as a sin. The understanding of that term, in the culture that wrote the old and new testaments, included sex outside of the marriage ceremony.

Sex was an important part of marriage, but even according to Paul, there could be fornication.
"Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."

In other words, sex outside of marriage is fornication. Marriage, in the terms of Paul's culture, includes a public ceremony where the entrants announce their covenant with God. Sex once, marriage has been performed, is acceptable.

I guess what I am trying to say is, was fornication always a sin? Before Nicaea what was the position on sex in the apostles? I know Jewish laws are pretty archaic but Jesus is supposed to have brought forgiveness and turning the other cheek to the table. What was his position on marriage, on adultery on fornication? Before the Romans jumped in and took over, what was the Christian position on marriage and sex?

 

[river-wind]

Lets look at 1 Corinthians 6:16 "Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh.""

Does a man become married to a prostitute once they have sex? They are of one flesh, but not of one spirit in the eyes of God.

If a married man has sex with a prostitute, is he not an adulterer, but a polygamist?

Both Solomon and King David had both wives and concubines. They had sex with both, but were only married to some. What's the difference?

Before the Romans jumped in and took over, what was the Christian position on marriage and sex?

So we're talking about the definition of marriage as the customs that were practiced by early christians after Jesus and before ~300 AD?

That I don't know.

 

[IamJoseph]

I see her point as well. However, only if the sex occurs after the wedding, i.e. within the bounds of matrimony, is it not considered sinful.

Sex is not marriage per the Jewish customs, it was the fulfillment, the purpose, of marriage. It is possible to have sex without marriage, and it is possible to have marriage without sex.

Marraige is a contract with clauses. I agree that sex per se is not adultary because it does not violate the terms of any contract. However, only immorality can apply, and this to if under certain conditions.

A contract is a contract.

 

[IamJoseph]

Lets look at 1 Corinthians 6:16 "Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh.""

.

Incorrect. You have quoted only part of the text. You forget that Adam and Eve were married and Eve became Adam's wife [the text!], so becoming one flesh is only applicable if a marraige contract has been undertaken. One who lies with a harlot does not constitute a marraige - it is a paid service.

 

[IamJoseph]

The churches generally say premarital sex is sinful, as do the synagogues.

It is not a 'transgression' of the 613 laws. There is no law which says premarital sex is a sin in the Hebrew bible. This does not mean it is not immoral - this comes under harlotry or prostitution, which is not advocated.

 

[IamJoseph]

The Catholic church is a body of interpretation, like the Talmud. But what does Christianity say about marriage?

The first recording [as opposed practice] of marraige is in the Hebrew bible, with Adam and Eve. That both will become as one has manifold applications and dual responsibilities. The woman, the last and final in Creation, remains the transcendent party and is above the status of a man. Even the greatest prophet was told this:

'Whatever Sarah tells you to do - do it'. [Genesis].

A woman has a greater understanding of the future and of right and wrong, than a man - without resorting to knowledge and study - because she has the ultimate job of catering to the future.

 

[IamJoseph]

a personal relationship with god that renders religion and secular contracts obsolete is what i aspire to, and what i believe is attainable through christ. and i believe his kingdom will be void of any such things.

One can only make obsolete by putting something superior. Thus far, Christianity has not been able to dislodge a single of the 613 Hebrew laws, and not for the lack of trying. If you examine your own country's judiciary laws, you will find they are all contained in the Hebrew exclusively - not one comes from the Gospel or Quran. The issue of marraige predates Christianity and prevails well past it.

The problem is not with marraige - but with the premise of willfully abstaining from marraige and glorifying celibacy - which is a contradiction of the Hebrew laws which Christianity professes to take on board. And we know what harm comes from such celibacy.

"IT IS NOT GOOD FOR MAN TO BE ALONE" [Genesis].

Believe it.

 

[IamJoseph]

Jewish laws are pretty archaic but Jesus is supposed to have brought forgiveness

No sir. Archaic means not accepted by the world's institutions. Nor was the factor of forgiveness, as with mercy, long suffering and loving kindness, derived from Jesus or the Gospels, but from the Hebrew bible. The precedent factor rules, and one must accreditise without negations - else it borders on a lie.

and turning the other cheek to the table.

This is not accepted by any peoples or institutions - least by Christianity. Forgiveness is subject to conditions and criteria: if a mad dog is rushing at someone, with the limbs of a loved one in its jaws - do we turn the other cheek? That would constitute a crime.

 

[river-wind]

Incorrect. You have quoted only part of the text. You forget that Adam and Eve were married and Eve became Adam's wife [the text!], so becoming one flesh is only applicable if a marraige contract has been undertaken. One who lies with a harlot does not constitute a marraige - it is a paid service.

I'm not sure I understand your point. What is the marriage contract, and how does it apply to adam and eve?

 

[S.A.M.]

Lets look at 1 Corinthians 6:16 "Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh.""

Does a man become married to a prostitute once they have sex? They are of one flesh, but not of one spirit in the eyes of God.

If a married man has sex with a prostitute, is he not an adulterer, but a polygamist?

Both Solomon and King David had both wives and concubines. They had sex with both, but were only married to some. What's the difference?

I am not well versed in Bible chapters, but isn't all this Jewish stuff? What are the role models of marriage for Christians, in the NT? Wasn't Mary Magdalene a prostitute?

So we're talking about the definition of marriage as the customs that were practiced by early christians after Jesus and before ~300 AD?

That I don't know.

Doesn't the NT say anything at all about marriage or sex?

Archaic means not accepted by the world's institutions.

Thats just how I would put it. Judaism is not a popular religion, not even among Jews. Most of them ignore large portions of Judaic law to square it with their conscience or abandon it altogether in favour of something more humanistic and sensible.

 

[Adstar]

For company. I did not say that it was the ONLY question i would ask. I said the question was the most important one for me.

So your needs are secondary to those of possible children in a marriage, for you?

As they should be. But having the needs of children addressed and the needs of the mother and dad addressed is not mutually exclusive. All needs can be supplied.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[river-wind]

Doesn't the NT say anything at all about marriage or sex?

The Acts and Corinthians bits are from the NT.

Both items, however, are the words of Paul, rather than the words of Jesus. If you are looking for specific quotes from Jesus, I'll limit to the first four books of the NT, and not include Paul letters or Revelations. We're left with fairly little.

(Matthew 5:31-32) “It hath been said, whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: but I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery”

(Matthew 15:19-20) "For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man."

(Mark 7:21-23) "For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' ""

(John 4:17-18), -"He (Jesus) said to her, "Go call your husband, and come here." The woman answered and said, "I have no husband." Jesus said to her. "You have well said, I have no husband' for you have had five husbands; and the one whom you now have is not your husband; this you have said truly." (she was living with a guy, but not married to him)


as an aside, while looking these up, I came across another OT line, which clearly denotes the separation between sex and marriage:
(Ex. 22:16). "And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife. 17: If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins"


Now, Jesus didn't completely get rid of the old (Hebrew) rules. He said that he didn't come to get rid of the law, but to fullfill the law. this leads to the confusing state of much of the old rules no longer applying, but others sticking around. Paul makes it clear that he still considers the OT's rules on sex and marriage as being valid, though not all the OT practices (like plural marriage) is acceptable.