what defines marriage?

[Lori_7]

This is where it's difficult for you being a christian but trying to separate yourself from the bible, which is what Q is bashing you over the head with.

I think you are being and have been consistent with your inconsistency. IOW, although you claim to be a christian you are not looking at the texts themselves in the same way that many christians do.

Which is why I said earlier that you aren't making friends on either side.

I have had this issue with you before because from my perspective you can't use scripture to support your case, whatever that is and then claim that other parts don't matter. It tends to reduce the strength of the scripture used to support the original case.

So regards to sex before marriage, if it does state that it is wrong than you can't just say that specific text doesn't matter.

However, since the Bible is like an insurance document. You can probably find some place in it that says it's ok. LOL.

Regarding sex before marriage, if it's true that we go to hell. The place is going to be full.

What Q is missing here or is purposely avoiding because he doesn't agree with it, is the many outs that are granted for our human errors. The whole thing seems like a big exercise in futility because apparently if Hitler in his heart claimed Jesus as his savior than he gets in the pearly gates.

If that's the case a little sex isn't going to keep you out.

i'm not trying to separate myself from the bible at all. if anything it's the story of my life. but i'm not trying to be on anyone's side either, and i don't always agree with religious interpretations. it's not that i mind religious rituals (though i close to apologized for participating in one), it's that i mind if they're used as a substitute for the thing they're supposed to represent. do you realize that some people think you can not get to heaven without being dipped in some water by a minister or a priest?

also, if it says that a religious ceremony must be performed in order for someone to be married in the bible, that would very much surprise me, because the interpretation i get is if you're having sex, then you're married, and if you're pretending like you're not married, you're wrong.

 

[S.A.M.]

any sex outside of marriage is outside of law as well, because the two are one in the same.

Sexual love is primitive, passionate, painful and possessive. Marriage puts a civilised face on it. I don't think it can be one and the same but its better one with the other.

 

[(Q)]

The only one ordering people around and telling them how to think and live is you.

Can you show me where I've done that?

 

[(Q)]

What Q is missing here or is purposely avoiding because he doesn't agree with it, is the many outs that are granted for our human errors. The whole thing seems like a big exercise in futility because apparently if Hitler in his heart claimed Jesus as his savior than he gets in the pearly gates.

If that's the case a little sex isn't going to keep you out.

I'm not missing anything here. If Christians are going to tell us how to live using scriptures, don't you think they should follow scriptures themselves? Where does it say in the bible Lori has an out for her fornication out of wedlock?

 

[(Q)]

the biblical definition is sex. it starts with sex, and if it ends, it ends with sex. any sex outside of marriage is outside of law as well, because the two are one in the same. to treat sex as if it does not equate to marriage is where fornication and adultery arise.

Just keep on ignoring the bible and making up lies, Lori, and don't ever turn to it when it best suits your purposes.

 

[(Q)]

i don't always agree with religious interpretations.

And there it is, the self-admitted cherry picking of scriptures. You believe whatever you want and ignore the rest. Hypocrite.

 

[phlogistician]

OK, so Lori, has everybody you've fucked previously, died?

 

[Lori_7]

I'm not missing anything here. If Christians are going to tell us how to live using scriptures, don't you think they should follow scriptures themselves? Where does it say in the bible Lori has an out for her fornication out of wedlock?

no one is telling you that paranoid. truth is, if you can't figure it out yourself, you're fucked. and that's ok with me.

 

[Lori_7]

Just keep on ignoring the bible and making up lies, Lori, and don't ever turn to it when it best suits your purposes.

you're the one ignoring the bible. i gave you a huge list of scripture on marriage and you still can't site one that substantiates what you're talking about.

 

[Lori_7]

And there it is, the self-admitted cherry picking of scriptures. You believe whatever you want and ignore the rest. Hypocrite.

i have a comprehensive understanding of the bible, and i doubt seriously if anyone's interpretation is exactly the same.

different people having different interpretations is not cherry picking. moron.

 

[Lori_7]

OK, so Lori, has everybody you've fucked previously, died?

i certainly hope not. i didn't always think about sex and marriage like i do now. have you learned anything about sex and relationships over the years or are you still going at it like a teenager?

 

[Lori_7]

so has anyone found this apparently all-important biblical scripture that says a religious ceremony is what defines marriage yet? anyone?

and does it say what this ceremony consists of? is it performed by a priest, a minister, a witch doctor? are we to cut off the head of a chicken, or dance around on broken wine glasses? any tips on finding a good photographer? should the reception dinner be buffet or sit down?

 

[Lori_7]

Sexual love is primitive, passionate, painful and possessive. Marriage puts a civilised face on it. I don't think it can be one and the same but its better one with the other.

one with the other actually seems like law to me, which of course abiding in is better...much better.

 

[river-wind]

Judges 14, Samson's marriage. He is wed to a woman and during the ceremony, posed a riddle. Unable to answer the riddle (and win some nice clothes and things), the family of the bride convinced her to guilt Samson into explaining the riddle. Having done so, she tells her family, who then win the fancy clothes.

Angered by having been pressured into losing the riddle, Samson goes and kills 30 people, then, because the marriage between Samson and his new wife was not consummated, it is effectively nullified and she marries the best man instead.



Jesus' attendance at the Wedding in Cana is a reference to a public wedding ceremony; even though consummation of the marriage is not mentioned, Jewish custom at the time would have required that the new wife be a virgin at that point. Admittedly, this could be considered a human tradition, rather than a holy one; however, the holy texts and stories connecting God's people to God himself were not limited to the Torah at that time.

The Talmud expressly forbids premarital sex, and was just as important and holy a work as the Torah. http://www.come-and-hear.com/talmud/nashim.html

 

[Lori_7]

Judges 14, Samson's marriage. He is wed to a woman and during the ceremony, posed a riddle. Unable to answer the riddle (and win some nice clothes and things), the family of the bride convinced her to guilt Samson into explaining the riddle. Having done so, she tells her family, who then win the fancy clothes.

Angered by having been pressured into losing the riddle, Samson goes and kills 30 people, then, because the marriage between Samson and his new wife was not consummated, it is effectively nullified and she marries the best man instead.



Jesus' attendance at the Wedding in Cana is a reference to a public wedding ceremony; even though consummation of the marriage is not mentioned, Jewish custom at the time would have required that the new wife be a virgin at that point. Admittedly, this could be considered a human tradition, rather than a holy one; however, the holy texts and stories connecting God's people to God himself were not limited to the Torah at that time.

The Talmud expressly forbids premarital sex, and was just as important and holy a work as the Torah. http://www.come-and-hear.com/talmud/nashim.html

So we tell riddles and go on mass killing sprees to get married? Hm...sex or mass killing sprees...tough call.

 

[Lori_7]

Seriously though, the only time I ever recall hearing about a marriage ceremony in the bible its been described as a religious ceremony, nothing more, nothing less, just as it is today, and has nothing to do with law in the eyes of god.

Do we really think god is so stupid to not differentiate a ceremony from what truly resides in the hearts and minds of men?

 

[Lori_7]

trying to figure out sex, not from an anatomical standpoint necessarily, but everything that went along with it, was what made me question the existence of god in the first place. it's what made me really want to know. i had a right to question the legitimacy of secular contracts and religious ceremonies, and the right to question the legitimacy of god's word, if it were in fact god's word. and i had plenty of opportunity through experience to develop an understanding.

the understanding that i've developed through experience is that sex is about mating, just as marriage is about mating. it's like math. and the equation goes like this...if you're not willing to be a husband or wife to this person and raise children with them, then don't have sex with them.

and we have a million ways around this and all of them are wrong.

and if raising children with someone is so awful or unattainable, then we should look at our society and look at ourselves and wonder what the fuck is wrong with us.

i would suggest that reducing marriage down to a secular contract or a religious ceremony might make it easier to disregard than a vow made to a god, who you believe in, and who taught you everything you know about this very thing.

and when i look at the scriptures, it's there. what i've learned through experience is there.

 

[river-wind]

You seem to have missed the point. The wedding ceremony occurred prior to any sex occurring; and after the killing happened, Samson's *wife* (i.e., they were married) is pawned off on another guy - allowable because sex hadn't yet occurred.

During the time this story occurred, the written text through which the people of the Lord communicated with god was the Torah, the Talmud, and other works; these (specifically the Talmud) are perfectly clear about sex prior to the marriage ceremony being sinful. Unmarried men would be unpure of mind at least, and very likely unpure of body is her was not married; being married, however, allowed for sexual activity within the confines of a sacred ceremonial covenant and allowed the man to remain pure.

There is a clear distinction made between the convenient of marriage through a wedding ceremony and two people having sex.

Do we really think god is so stupid to not differentiate a ceremony from what truly resides in the hearts and minds of men?

I'm not trying to understand what may or may not be in the mind of Abraham's God, I'm only reflecting on the content of the Bible in the context of the culture from which it came.

 

[Lori_7]

Can you show me where I've done that?

can you read? your own posts? you're a troll. you are flaming...you are trolling, and all in the name of religion!

you are so threatened by anyone who believes differently than you. that you attack them. you don't express your opinions, you don't contribute to threads, you just make enemy of anyone or anything you don't understand. and apparently you can't even understand sociology, in it's basic precepts.

i fucking dare you, to contribute to this thread, and express your opinions and beliefs about marriage, without attacking anyone else.

i fucking dare you.

you can't do it.

 

[Lori_7]

You seem to have missed the point. The wedding ceremony occurred prior to any sex occurring; and after the killing happened, Samson's *wife* (i.e., they were married) is pawned off on another guy - allowable because sex hadn't yet occurred.

no. which says that it was the sex that was of most importance, not the ceremony.

During the time this story occurred, the written text through which the people of the Lord communicated with god was the Torah, the Talmud, and other works; these (specifically the Talmud) are perfectly clear about sex prior to the marriage ceremony being sinful. Unmarried men would be unpure of mind at least, and very likely unpure of body is her was not married; being married, however, allowed for sexual activity within the confines of a sacred ceremonial covenant and allowed the man to remain pure.

There is a clear distinction made between the convenient of marriage through a wedding ceremony and two people having sex.


I'm not trying to understand what may or may not be in the mind of Abraham's God, I'm only reflecting on the content of the Bible in the context of the culture from which it came.

i agree that there is a distinction made, and that one seems way more important than the other, and that a ceremony is by it's very definition ritualistic, and that the marriage ceremony is the ritualistic representation of a man and a woman becoming one in the flesh in god, which is actually sex and everything that comes with it.

people stand on that altar and recite what they don't know about, and what they don't believe in, every day. you think that makes a marriage?

no, sex creates a bond and a responsibility between people, and when they deny that, it hurts them.

that is marriage.