What am I?
- Thread starter SetiAlpha6
- Start date
ellion said:
I am not casting a judgement. if i was doing that then i would carry out the judgement. What i am doing is warning others of judgement. People can make their own minds as to what i say, But for me to keep my mouth shut would be the most hateful thing to do.
You call me out for "judging" and then turn around and declare that i take delight in the deaths of others and i am fuelled by anger and hatred of others.
Although you have been reading my explanations it's quite clear you are not understanding then at all. I told you who my brothers where but you continue to associate me with men who are in rebellion against the words of Jesus. How many times can i say the same thing to you? and how many ways can i say it? What’s the point if you refuse to hear.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
DiamondHearts
Registered Senior Member
usp8riot said:
Surah 18, Al Kahf, The Cave
60. Behold, Moses said to his attendant, "I will not give up until I reach the junction of the two seas or (until) I spend years and years in travel."
61. But when they reached the Junction, they forgot (about) their Fish, which took its course through the sea (straight) as in a tunnel.
62. When they had passed on (some distance), Moses said to his attendant: "Bring us our early meal; truly we have suffered much fatigue at this (stage of) our journey."
63. He replied: "Sawest thou (what happened) when we betook ourselves to the rock? I did indeed forget (about) the Fish: none but Satan made me forget to tell (you) about it: it took its course through the sea in a marvellous way!"
64. Moses said: "That was what we were seeking after:" So they went back on their footsteps, following (the path they had come).
65. So they found one of Our servants [A man of God named Al Khadir], on whom We had bestowed Mercy from Ourselves and whom We had taught knowledge from Our own Presence.
66. Moses said to him: "May I follow thee, on the footing that thou teach me something of the (Higher) Truth which thou hast been taught?"
67. (The other) said: "Verily thou wilt not be able to have patience with me!"
68. "And how canst thou have patience about things about which thy understanding is not complete?"
69. Moses said: "Thou wilt find me, if Allah so will, (truly) patient: nor shall I disobey thee in aught."
70. The other said: "If then thou wouldst follow me, ask me no questions about anything until I myself speak to thee concerning it."
71. So they both proceeded: until, when they were in the boat, he scuttled it. Said Moses: "Hast thou scuttled it in order to drown those in it? Truly a strange thing hast thou done!"
72. He answered: "Did I not tell thee that thou canst have no patience with me?"
73. Moses said: "Rebuke me not for forgetting, nor grieve me by raising difficulties in my case."
74. Then they proceeded: until, when they met a young man, he slew him. Moses said: "Hast thou slain an innocent person who had slain none? Truly a foul (unheard of) thing hast thou done!"
75. He answered: "Did I not tell thee that thou canst have no patience with me?"
76. (Moses) said: "If ever I ask thee about anything after this, keep me not in thy company: then wouldst thou have received (full) excuse from my side."
77. Then they proceeded: until, when they came to the inhabitants of a town, they asked them for food, but they refused them hospitality. They found there a wall on the point of falling down, but he set it up straight. (Moses) said: "If thou hadst wished, surely thou couldst have exacted some recompense for it!"
78. He answered: "This is the parting between me and thee: now will I tell thee the interpretation of (those things) over which thou wast unable to hold patience.
79. "As for the boat, it belonged to certain men in dire want: they plied on the water: I but wished to render it unserviceable, for there was after them a certain king who seized on every boat by force.
80. "As for the youth, his parents were people of Faith, and we feared that he would grieve them by obstinate rebellion and ingratitude (to Allah and man).
81. "So we desired that their Lord would give them in exchange (a son) better in purity (of conduct) and closer in affection.
82. "As for the wall, it belonged to two youths, orphans, in the Town; there was, beneath it, a buried treasure, to which they were entitled: their father had been a righteous man: So thy Lord desired that they should attain their age of full strength and get out their treasure - a mercy (and favour) from thy Lord. I did it not of my own accord. Such is the interpretation of (those things) over which thou wast unable to hold patience."
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This story is of Hazrat Musa, Moses, (a) when he met in his travels a man enlightened by Allah swt with wisdom named Al Khadir. This man told Musa (a) to follow him to obtain wisdom and not say anything to what he did or else he would part ways to him. Hazrat Musa (a) agreed and followed him but was unable to keep silent. At the end, Al Khadir told him the wisdom of each event and in this is a lesson, do not judge a person's actions unless you have thorough knowledge of what he is doing. Do not criticize someone, but learn first of what he is doing and when you have knowledge you can offer an opinion. Do not jump to conclusions without proof. Do not jump to condemn others, for they might not be worthy of condemnation.
As I have proved, you tried to say the Prophet Muhammad (s) committed a vile sin, but the fact of this story shows it had nothing to do with the beloved Prophet Muhammad (s) and was instead at the time of Prophet Moses (a).
Get your facts straight before condemning someone else and using a weak argument like you just did. This was the very moral of this story. If you had read this, you would have learned.
Peace.
usp8riot
Registered Senior Member
And the odd thing is, you included 'peace' at the end of that insult. Get your facts straight, you cannot deny that every prophet has done wrong. And if you believe it, then I am more morally inept than any of your prophets. That's why I am here, to get rid of those that condone evil in God's name. I read not from a book, but from myself. I do not follow blindly any religion, even my own my own will be pure to me when filtered through my logic. I do not have to rely on quoting from religious text because I had all I need to know inside, given to me by God. And as you have seen, I asked forgiveness for getting that wrong because I just happened to skip around while reading the Quran. But the whole point was, even Moses, Muhammed and Jesus weren't perfect and you madam, have committed blasphemy when you say someone is perfect just as God is. It is like saying, he is all powerful, just as God is. Or he knows all, just as God does. There can only be one perfect, and that is God. That is my belief, but take it as knowing to myself, but you are welcome to your own and must accept the consequences of blindly following an imperfect religion as they all are and learn to root out where the wrong is committed in the religion.
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usp8riot
Registered Senior Member
You can quote all you want DH, I will never convert to such an unjust religion. Same with Christianity, it has it's faults for these times. God is just and where is the justice? Woe to the man that kills the children of God. They will be antagonists of Him. He creates, and they destroy. Even a man who kills has the opportunity to turn around and do good so as to bless the one he murdered and also beg forgiveness and possibly save his own soul. It is always better to receive punishment in this life then in the hereafter. And when you kill a man, you deny him that opportunity. So two lives are lost with no opportunity for the man who murdered to do good in the name of the one he murdered. Muhammed was imperfect obviously. Otherwise you are playing devil's advocate and trying to cover up this man's murder and other sin. Same with Moses, and even though Jesus is reported to sin less, he is still imperfect. He had his sins.
Adstar said:
Adstar in Matthew 10:34-36 (NKJV) Jesus said…
34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’
And also in Luke 14:26 (NKJV) Jesus said…
26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.
How does this fit with the idea of Christian love?
And how does this work with...
Exodus 20:12 (NKJV)
12 “ Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
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usp8riot
Registered Senior Member
Because that is a consequence of beliefs. And that is what Jesus prophesized and is true. Christianity has divided families and Jesus foresaw that.
Because where there is strong love and will, there is a strong susceptibility to be taken by it and for compromise. Blood is thick and can bring one away from God just as much as anything else. To love life too much is to not want to sacrifice too much. To love someone too much is a compromising position that can separate you from God if not careful.
SetiAlpha6 said:
Yes. have your read what happened in the book of Acts when many in the Jewish community believed in Jesus after His death and resurrection? what it caused was division within families that lead to the Believers in Jesus being killed by their relatives. Just like muslim families will often kill their relatives who convert to Christianity. The Word of God divide families. I had to leave my families religion to come to Jesus the Word of God was like a sword cutting me off from them. Just as it is happening now with you and your father. you are being cut off. You are falling away from the truth. Most people who come to Jesus break away from their familles. It’s a fact of life.
This has to be read in context. If anyone loves mother or father more than they love God then they will never come to God. The Jews who accepted Jesus had to make a break with their own families, So they had to disown them. That’s the price that has to be paid. Disowning your family disowning your nation disowning your culture disowning the world. Nothing can come before God in your life, nothing and no one.
Disowning ones family is not abusing them. I honour my mother and my father i do not attack them or spit upon the or argue with them. One can still honour ones parents while disagreeing with them. Once again the totality of the bible must be read to be understood.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
DiamondHearts
Registered Senior Member
usp8riot said:
You are wong, as is evident in the Western society, it is the lack of religion and selfish permissiveness which is breaking up families, not religion. Faith in religion and adopting morality is the only way to reverse this trend.
Peace.
DiamondHearts
Registered Senior Member
I know, I just wanted to present my view on this because I believe secularism is responsible for breaking up families, not religion.
Peace.
Peace.
Adstar said:
The Jewish people were just following the Word of God when they killed their Christian relatives. They had an eternal covenant with God and their Christian brothers and sons and daughters were enticing them to turn away to a different faith. They were simply doing the will of God. God himself placed that sword in their hands. For they were only doing exactly what they had been commanded to do directly by God in...
Deuteronomy 13:6-10 (NKJV)
6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
In following the written "Word" to the letter they killed God's own people. And again they became amoral themselves, and unable to determine right from wrong. They just blindly followed the "Word of God" without letting their heart speak to them and stop them from carrying out this atrocity. Wouldn't you have done the same thing in their position?
Adstar said:
Hate or hatred is an emotion of intense revulsion, distaste, enmity, or antipathy for a person, thing, or phenomenon; a desire to avoid, restrict, remove, or destroy its object. Are you telling me that you Hate your own family Adstar?
I am still missing how this works with loving your enemies.
1 John 3:15 (NKJV)
15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.
Thanks!
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SetiAlpha6 said:
They where not being enticed away from their religion. They where being asked to come to and embrace their religion. Jesus is the Word of God if they had truly embraced the words of the prophets then they would have embraced Jesus as Messiah, But they did not.
Once again you must read the whole Word of God to get things in Context. I hate the deception my family is under. I hate the deception DH is under. I can love my family members while at the same time hating their beliefs or lack they’re of. The door is always open to them if they choose to come to Jesus. But when it comes to the crunch nothing comes before my relationship with God and if a relationship with my family is a detriment to my relationship with God then the relationship with my family will be ended.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Adstar said:
I am sorry but I currently disagree. As far as I can tell, they thought they were being enticed away from their religion directly because of what the law and the prophets taught them. That is why Paul, who knew the Law, went after and killed the Christians. And that is also why the Jews demanded the death of Jesus. He was breaking the Eternal Covenant and the Eternal Law which God had given them.
Adstar said:
Adstar, will you ever, in all eternity, really be able to be happy in heaven?
You obviously love your family. So, how can you ever be happy knowing that your entire family is being forever tortured in agony and eternal torment in Hell? What kind of a mental state would you have to be in to reach a point where you could have this full knowledge but not care about what happens to them anymore? Would you have to forfeit your love for them just to be happy in heaven or would you have to even hate them to be happy? What would the price of eternal happiness be for you?
Take Care!
SetiAlpha6 said:
Yes they believed they where doing the right thing. But believing your doing the right thing is no garentee that you are doing the right thing. The Jews who did kill us did so because they did not understand their own God, they did not understand their own scriptures. The prophesies of the Torah pointed to Jesus but The Jews could not see the forrest for the trees. They studied the letter of the scriptures without seeing the Message.
In my current human state i cannot imagine being happy in eternity with my family in the lake of fire. But upon the reasurection/rapture i will be changed. Not just changed in substance but changed in mind. I will be happy and at peace with God. It could be the case that i will not longer remember my family? I do not know how God will make this possable but i know He will.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
PS: I do not believe i will spend eternity in heaven. Scriptures state that God is coming to earth to be with us. going to heaven for eternity is a product of tradition not scripture.
Adstar said:
I Agree.
Adstar said:
They would have to reject and declare false their own scriptures which clearly taught them that their own covenant with God was "everlasting" and so would never end. They would have to reject this promise of God to them and regard it as false. Do you regard this as false? Was their covenant eternal or not Adstar?
Thanks
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SetiAlpha6 said:
Did their Torah tell them that their covenant with God was everlasting??? Is the book of Jeremiah a part of the OT? Is it a part of the Torah scriptures?
Yes indeed it is. So if they paid attention to their own scriptures they would have read the following:
Jeremiah 31
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[a] says the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
Seems they did not read their own scriptures that clearly tells them that their covenant established in the times of Moses would not be an everlasting covenant.
Matthew 26
27 Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Adstar said:
Thanks for your response!
There are too many “everlasting”, and “perpetual” promises and “forever” statements in the Torah to even think about listing them all here. So here are only a few.
So far, you have basically shown me that all of the following scriptures plus many others, which I have not listed, were wrong all along and served only to mislead the Jews.
Genesis 17:7
And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you.
Genesis 17:19
Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him.
Exodus 12:13-15
13 Now the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you; and the plague shall not be on you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt. 14 ‘So this day shall be to you a memorial; and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD throughout your generations. You shall keep it as a feast by an everlasting ordinance. 15 Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven from your houses. For whoever eats leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel.
Leviticus 16:33-35
33 then he shall make atonement for the Holy Sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tabernacle of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly. 34 This shall be an everlasting statute for you, to make atonement for the children of Israel, for all their sins, once a year.” And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.
Leviticus 24:7-9
7 And you shall put pure frankincense on each row, that it may be on the bread for a memorial, an offering made by fire to the LORD. 8 Every Sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant. 9 And it shall be for Aaron and his sons, and they shall eat it in a holy place; for it is most holy to him from the offerings of the LORD made by fire, by a perpetual statute.”
Leviticus 16:30-32
30 For on that day the priest shall make atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the LORD. 31 It is a sabbath of solemn rest for you, and you shall afflict your souls. It is a statute forever. 32 And the priest, who is anointed and consecrated to minister as priest in his father’s place, shall make atonement, and put on the linen clothes, the holy garments;
Exodus 31:14-16
14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.
Adstar said:
I think they would be confused!
Jeremiah gives the Jew a clear reason to reject the new covenant of Jesus because it fails to fullfill this prophesy.
"I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts;" ...No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD.
Am I missing something? Is this prophesy fulfilled today? I guess there really is no reason to evangelize anymore. There is no reason to teach Sunday School anymore or even for us to converse about these things. Because we already know!
Take Care!
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