What am I?

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Once again God declared through Jeremiah that the covenant of Moses the agreement God made with the Jews had been broken. God make that covenant and he said it was forever But a covenant is a two sided agreement that becomes null and void when one of the party breaks the contract by non-compliance with the terms of the contract. When God told them that they where to do this and to do that forever then that is what they where bound by the agreement to do. Once they fail to do so then the agreement is off.

Leviticus 16:33-35
33 then he shall make atonement for the Holy Sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tabernacle of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly. 34 This shall be an everlasting statute for you, to make atonement for the children of Israel, for all their sins, once a year.” And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.

When was the last time that the high priests of isreal made a blood sacrifice for the atonement for the Jews?? Broken

Leviticus 24:7-9
7 And you shall put pure frankincense on each row, that it may be on the bread for a memorial, an offering made by fire to the LORD. 8 Every Sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant. 9 And it shall be for Aaron and his sons, and they shall eat it in a holy place; for it is most holy to him from the offerings of the LORD made by fire, by a perpetual statute.”

Again when was the last time the sons of Aaron ate the bread of memorial in the holy Place? have they done it every Sabbath? Broken

Do i need to go on?

Why do you think the Jews where taken into exile by the Persians? Why do you think the 10 tribes of Israel where dispersed? Because they kept the covenant? No because they broke the Covenant just as God had said through the prophet Jeremiah.

As for the new covenant. What happened upon the day of Pentecost? The Holy Spirit came down and dwelled in the apostles and taught them many things and led them into all truths. They had the right Spirit.

As for Sunday school i have never been to one in my life. I am indeed happy i was not filled with religion at a Sunday school. I suppose you spent some time at a Sunday school? maybe that’s why you are filled with confusion and doubt.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Once again God declared through Jeremiah that the covenant of Moses the agreement God made with the Jews had been broken. God make that covenant and he said it was forever But a covenant is a two sided agreement that becomes null and void when one of the party breaks the contract by non-compliance with the terms of the contract. When God told them that they where to do this and to do that forever then that is what they where bound by the agreement to do. Once they fail to do so then the agreement is off.

For an agreement or covenant to exist between two parties, and for it to be just, it must be at least possible for each party to actually fulfill their side of the agreement. Paul, however, teaches that the Old Covenant was deliberately designed by God to be an impossible burden for the house of Israel to carry. It was impossible for them to not break it.

As for the new covenant. What happened upon the day of Pentecost? The Holy Spirit came down and dwelled in the apostles and taught them many things and led them into all truths. They had the right Spirit.

There still is another side to this prophecy that I am thinking about. This prophecy appears to be misapplied in this current age. Perhaps in the future it will come true, I don’t know. But it is certainly not true right now on multiple levels.

The writer of Hebrews misapplied this prophesy when he quoted it in Hebrews 8:7-13 because this has really never happened at anytime in the history of the world. This just does not seem to work at all in my feeble little mind. This particular prophecy might at least make more sense during the period of the Second Coming. Perhaps I am wrong. Anyway, here is why.

Please See Hebrews 8:7-13
Have all of the words of this prophecy come to pass? NO!

Vs. 10 …I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel

God has rejected the Jews according to the New Testament. There is no new covenant in effect with them today. Jesus even deliberately hid the new covenant from the Jews by speaking to them in parables so they could not understand it and be saved.

Vs. 10 …I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts;
Vs. 11 …None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

This describes a new covenant where “all” of the house of Israel will know both the Law of God and God Himself, “from the least of them to the greatest”. This also clearly describes a time when no Jew will ever have to teach another Jew about God, “for all shall know Me”. This aspect is far from true today even with Spirit filled Christians.

Vs. 12 …For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.

Again, this is surely not true today is it? God does indeed remember the sins of the house of Israel. And He surely has not forgiven them. In fact, He has never forgiven a single sin that has ever occurred in this universe. He has always required payment in full. A debt that requires payment, even by someone else, is not forgiveness. True forgiveness, out of pure love for the other person, wipes out the debt without any payment whatsoever.

As for Sunday school i have never been to one in my life. I am indeed happy i was not filled with religion at a Sunday school. I suppose you spent some time at a Sunday school? maybe that’s why you are filled with confusion and doubt.

I freely admit that I am confused and that I do have doubts. I am also very aware that such a condition of the mind demands not only my instant physical death here on earth but that I must also be tortured throughout all the eons upon eons of eternity for this "evil" crime of confusion. And that this is also called "justice". And that, even though you do care greatly now, some day you will not care in the least about the agony and eternal torment I will be experiencing in hell. Because you will be somehow changed, in the blink of an eye, into a being that thinks it is just, and right, and good, to treat me, and billions of people like me, and even your own family in this way. This is unjust, unloving, unmerciful, and pure evil on such a huge scale it makes Adolph Hitler look like the Easter Bunny.

Please let me express my appreciation to you for allowing me to discuss these things with you! There is basically no one else in my life I can talk with about these things. I cannot express my concerns, right or wrong, to anyone in my own family without hurting them, worrying them, or causing them to condemn and reject me.

 

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For an agreement or covenant to exist between two parties, and for it to be just, it must be at least possible for each party to actually fulfill their side of the agreement. Paul, however, teaches that the Old Covenant was deliberately designed by God to be an impossible burden for the house of Israel to carry. It was impossible for them to not break it.

Please provide the scriptures where paul says this.

The Law had an inbuilt safety mechanism called atoning sacrifice for those who broke the law. But it was not a case of the Jews trying their best and failing because they where human. It was a case of them not even trying.

Read 2 Kings chapters 22 and 23 You will discover that when they rejected Samuel and decided to have a King above them they also disregarded the law until the King Josiah decided to renovate the temple and they discovered the book of the Law. He read the Law and it shocked him because he was ignorant of the law. Read about what the Jews where worshiping during the time of King Josiah, They had totally discarded the covenant. Not tried to keep it and failed.

There still is another side to this prophecy that I am thinking about. This prophecy appears to be misapplied in this current age. Perhaps in the future it will come true, I don’t know. But it is certainly not true right now on multiple levels.

The writer of Hebrews misapplied this prophesy when he quoted it in Hebrews 8:7-13 because this has really never happened at anytime in the history of the world. This just does not seem to work at all in my feeble little mind. This particular prophecy might at least make more sense during the period of the Second Coming. Perhaps I am wrong. Anyway, here is why.

Please See Hebrews 8:7-13
Have all of the words of this prophecy come to pass? NO!

Vs. 10 …I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel

God has rejected the Jews according to the New Testament. There is no new covenant in effect with them today. Jesus even deliberately hid the new covenant from the Jews by speaking to them in parables so they could not understand it and be saved.

Vs. 10 …I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts;
Vs. 11 …None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.

This describes a new covenant where “all” of the house of Israel will know both the Law of God and God Himself, “from the least of them to the greatest”. This also clearly describes a time when no Jew will ever have to teach another Jew about God, “for all shall know Me”. This aspect is far from true today even with Spirit filled Christians.

Vs. 12 …For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.

Again, this is surely not true today is it? God does indeed remember the sins of the house of Israel. And He surely has not forgiven them. In fact, He has never forgiven a single sin that has ever occurred in this universe. He has always required payment in full. A debt that requires payment, even by someone else, is not forgiveness. True forgiveness, out of pure love for the other person, wipes out the debt without any payment whatsoever.

You say "God has rejected the Jews according to the New Testament"

That's strange. On the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit came down and entered into men where all the men Gentiles or where they Jews? And when the crowd that listened to Peter preaching, (Being guided in what he said by the Holy Spirit) reacted in this way.

Acts
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

These men where Jews who had taken part in the killing of Jesus. And they repented and accepted Jesus as Messiah.

41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

3000 of them.

Most of the early Christians where Jews they where descendants of Abraham and there are still many descendants of Abraham who are believers in the Messiah Jesus. Paul said.

Romans 11

1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

So there was never a total rejection of all the Jews there was a remnant of Jews who became Christians. Also the Jews where not the total of the 12 tribes of Israel. The Word Jew comes from the word Judah that is only one of the 12 tribes of Israel. descendants of the other tribes are also descendants of Abraham. There are people today dispersed through the world who are Christian, descendants of Abraham who do not know it.


You go on to say:
"There is no new covenant in effect with them today. Jesus even deliberately hid the new covenant from the Jews by speaking to them in parables so they could not understand it and be saved."

Read the following:
Luke 8
9 Then His disciples asked Him, saying, “What does this parable mean?”
10 And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that ‘ Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.

Q1) Who was given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God?... His Disciples right?

Q2) What was the nationality of His disciples?... Jews right?

So the mystery was revealed to some Jews.

I freely admit that I am confused and that I do have doubts. I am also very aware that such a condition of the mind demands not only my instant physical death here on earth but that I must also be tortured throughout all the eons upon eons of eternity for this "evil" crime of confusion. And that this is also called "justice". And that, even though you do care greatly now, some day you will not care in the least about the agony and eternal torment I will be experiencing in hell. Because you will be somehow changed, in the blink of an eye, into a being that thinks it is just, and right, and good, to treat me, and billions of people like me, and even your own family in this way. This is unjust, unloving, unmerciful, and pure evil on such a huge scale it makes Adolph Hitler look like the Easter Bunny.

Who said confusion warranted death? Rejection warrants death. And forgiveness has always required a price. God has provided the price through Jesus. All we have to do is accept the Gift to have it. Forgiveness cannot be given and it is of no benefit if the wrongdoer does not think they need it. Forgiveness can only be sought by the wrongdoer after they recognise their wrongdoing. The forgiveness of God is always on the table free of charge but to have it one must take it.

You call The God of Abraham "pure evil"? I say God is Just and the Justifier of all who trust Him. God’s love is there on offer to all men just as Gods offer of forgiveness is on offer to all men. These offers must be personally accepted before they can be of use to us. You say the eternal lake of fire is unjust? Then in the same measure you must also declare eternity with God as also unjust. But that’s the strange thing; people who call the eternal lake of fire unjust do not call eternity in paradise unjust.

Please let me express my appreciation to you for allowing me to discuss these things with you! There is basically no one else in my life I can talk with about these things. I cannot express my concerns, right or wrong, to anyone in my own family without hurting them, worrying them, or causing them to condemn and reject me.

I am quite sure that if they did hear your words they would be cut to the heart. Of course they cannot condemn you they can only warn you of Gods condemnation.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[SetiAlpha6]

I am wrong about some of the things I have said. I will study these things further in the days ahead! Thank you for your response!

The Law had an inbuilt safety mechanism called atoning sacrifice for those who broke the law.

Is there really any safety mechanism at work in the following scriptures?

Exodus 31:14-16
14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

Numbers 15:32-36
32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So, as the LORD commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

A man gathers sticks on the Sabbath day. God demands his death for this "evil" act and the whole congregation stoned him as a group until he died. Where is there any safety mechanism here? Where is there any mercy at all here? These are the kinds of things that really do not look right to me. This sounds like the words of misguided men not God.

Who said confusion warranted death? Rejection warrants death.

If salvation is by faith, and confusion or doubt is not faith, then someone who is confused or has doubts is not saved. Whatever is not from faith is sin. Am I wrong?

Romans 14:22-24
22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

James 1:5-7
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;

You call The God of Abraham "pure evil"? I say God is Just and the Justifier of all who trust Him. God’s love is there on offer to all men just as Gods offer of forgiveness is on offer to all men. These offers must be personally accepted before they can be of use to us. You say the eternal lake of fire is unjust? Then in the same measure you must also declare eternity with God as also unjust. But that’s the strange thing; people who call the eternal lake of fire unjust do not call eternity in paradise unjust.

I say that God is good, and that the Bible has contradictions and teaches both good and evil things.

Here is another point of confusion for me, Adstar!

Romans 11:
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul says here that God has not cast away His people. Fine, I was wrong! But then in the same chapter of Romans, below, Paul says that it is God who blinds them so that they will not be able to believe! Essentially, Israel seeks God, but God blinds them. The same thing appears to be going on with the use of parables by Jesus. Why is God blinding His own people?

Romans 11:

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“ God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

9 And David says:

“ Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”

And, if God blinds His own people how can He then condemn them for what He has done?

All for Now, Take Care

 

[Adstar]

Hello SetiAlpha6

I am wrong about some of the things I have said. I will study these things further in the days ahead! Thank you for your response!



Is there really any safety mechanism at work in the following scriptures?

Exodus 31:14-16
14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. 16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

Numbers 15:32-36
32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So, as the LORD commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

A man gathers sticks on the Sabbath day. God demands his death for this "evil" act and the whole congregation stoned him as a group until he died. Where is there any safety mechanism here? Where is there any mercy at all here? These are the kinds of things that really do not look right to me. This sounds like the words of misguided men not God.

When i referred to the atoning sacrifice i was talking about atonement on an eternal time scale. That man had to face the punishment of the law but that does not mean he was not covered by the atoning sacrifice of the Levitical priesthood. Of course i cannot look into the heart and mind of that man who was stoned, I cannot say what He believed on the day of His death.

(What i am about to say in speculation but maybe his death was the ultimate form of personal atoning sacrifice for himself? maybe he paid the price for his sin by his death?)

If salvation is by faith, and confusion or doubt is not faith, then someone who is confused or has doubts is not saved. Whatever is not from faith is sin. Am I wrong?

Romans 14:22-24
22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23 But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin.

James 1:5-7
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;

Yes i would say you are correct. We must know what we believe in. there is no point making the statement "i believe in Jesus" and then disagreeing with what He said. There is no point in saying i believe God but then disagree with Gods will.

Here is another point of confusion for me, Adstar!

Romans 11:
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul says here that God has not cast away His people. Fine, I was wrong! But then in the same chapter of Romans, below, Paul says that it is God who blinds them so that they will not be able to believe! Essentially, Israel seeks God, but God blinds them. The same thing appears to be going on with the use of parables by Jesus. Why is God blinding His own people?

Romans 11:

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“ God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

9 And David says:

“ Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”

And, if God blinds His own people how can He then condemn them for what He has done?

All for Now, Take Care

Great question:

You say they "Israel seeks God, but God blinds them." What did Jesus say.

Matthew 23
29 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, 30 and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
31 “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. 33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.

They where not seeking God. They where resisting God for many generations.

Matthew 23
37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’”


Jesus used the parable of the Wicked Vinedressers, the funny thing about this parable is that the chief priests and the elders of the people (who the parable was told too) understood the message:

Matthew 21
33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”
41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:


‘ The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the LORD’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet.

God can and does blind those who will not embrace His will, who will not accept The Love of The Truth. He blinds people so that they have no hope of finding Him. But only after they have worn out His longsuffering by rejecting Him time and time again. If you read the OT in the book of Exodus where God demonstrated His power to harden Pharaoh’s heart and Mind to a seemingly insane extent making him totally illogical in His resistance to the call of Moses. God did not blind Him from the very start but sent Moses to him twice and Pharaoh rejected the Will of God twice. Only after this did God cause His heart to be hardened to all the greater signs that followed.

The blinding of the greater part of Israel is not the only people who are being blinded to the truth. Those who reject the Love of the truth are being blinded now and being lead into deception:

Here is a very powerful NT scripture describing this:

2 Thessalonians 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Scripture makes it clear that those who reject the Love of the Truth will be given over to delusions and strong deception by God.

Why do they reject it? because they have pleasure in unrighteousness and they see the Love of the truth as foolishness.

1 Corinthians 1
23but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[SetiAlpha6]

When i referred to the atoning sacrifice i was talking about atonement on an eternal time scale. That man had to face the punishment of the law but that does not mean he was not covered by the atoning sacrifice of the Levitical priesthood. Of course i cannot look into the heart and mind of that man who was stoned, I cannot say what He believed on the day of His death.

(What i am about to say in speculation but maybe his death was the ultimate form of personal atoning sacrifice for himself? maybe he paid the price for his sin by his death?)

The act of killing a man for picking up sticks is wrong no matter what book it is printed in.

Yes i would say you are correct. We must know what we believe in. there is no point making the statement "i believe in Jesus" and then disagreeing with what He said. There is no point in saying i believe God but then disagree with Gods will.

Sentencing a person to live in excruciating torture for all eternity because they are confused is unmerciful and unjust.

Great question:

You say they "Israel seeks God, but God blinds them." What did Jesus say.

...They where not seeking God. They where resisting God for many generations.

There is a contradiction here.

According to Romans 11:7 Israel did “seek” what the elect have obtained.

Romans 11:7 …”Israel has not obtained what it seeks (present tense); but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.” What did the elect obtain, Adstar? Could it possibly be salvation?

So, right or wrong, I say again according to Romans 11:7, "Israel seeks God, but God blinds them." Or in other words, Israel seeks salvation, but God blinds them and keeps them from finding it.

And again I ask, how can God condemn Israel for His own actions?

Best Wishes!

 

[Adstar]

In Romans 11 Paul referred to the scripture of Isaiah 29 if you read the chapter you will come across the reason why God blinded them:

Isaiah 29
“ Inasmuch as these people draw near with their mouths
And honor Me with their lips,
But have removed their hearts far from Me,
And their fear toward Me is taught by the commandment of men,
14 Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work
Among this people,
A marvelous work and a wonder;
For the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
And the understanding of their prudent men shall be hidden.”

But i have said this before, But you refuse to accept It. You only accept what you deem to be right and proper. You trust in yourself and your estimation of what is right and just.

Isaiah 55
6 Seek the LORD while He may be found,
Call upon Him while He is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way,
And the unrighteous man his thoughts;
Let him return to the LORD,
And He will have mercy on him;
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon.
8 “ For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD.
9 “ For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

I suppose that you will find a religion that suits your estimation of what is correct, satan has provided many different religions to suit the thoughts of different men. There are many different pathways to hell. But only one Way to eternity with God. Whatever you find will only be deception, you have called God evil and your heart is set on rebellion against His will. There is no point in me saying the same thing again and again and again and you saying the opposite again and again and again.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[SetiAlpha6]

If I am to be burned for being confused, then so be it.
If I am to be tortured for all eternity for loving and forgiving others, then so be it.
If I, like Abraham, must be willing to kill my own son to inherit eternal life, or kill a man for simply picking up sticks, then I will not inherit it.
And, if I must forfeit the most rudimentary morality and the most basic qualities of good character imaginable to be saved, then I will not be. Amen!

I cannot teach my own children simple morality and good character if I myself have none.

But, thank you for the kind warning! I do have a little higher opinion of God than you. How can you ascribe all of the atrocities that exist in the Bible to God? I cannot!

When it comes to Bible contradictions you might consider taking this man’s apologetic advice (See Below). He states, without embarrassment, that whether or not the apologist’s “explanation is the "true one" is not all that relevant.”

“In this case, it is the critic who proposes. He claims that the Bible is "full of contradictions," and often proposes a lengthy list such as the one we are about to respond to below. Now, as Christians, we cannot prove that something is NOT a contradiction (i.e., one cannot prove that X [contradictions] do not exist). Instead, all that is required of us is to come up with plausible or reasonable, even possible explanations so that what is purported to be a contradiction is not necessarily a contradiction. Whether or not our explanation is the "true one" is not all that relevant in such contexts.” (http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/bible.htm)

This approach leads to self-deception and the willful and deliberate deceiving of others. And is also the result of being imprisoned and immobilized by fear. In my opinion, at least, the real “love of the truth” must be rejected to hold that the Bible is without error. It requires the jettisoning of my own desire for truth and justice. I am simply not willing to do this!

Thanks!

 

[Adstar]

So be it. You have made your decision.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[draqon]

cough cough...hey guys...umm nice intelligent talk here...sorry to interrupt you...
I was going to say that umm bible was made by people...and people are faulty too...so when quoting the bible...remember you have a high probability of quating people with faulty believes.

 

[usp8riot]

I suppose that you will find a religion that suits your estimation of what is correct, satan has provided many different religions to suit the thoughts of different men. There are many different pathways to hell. But only one Way to eternity with God. Whatever you find will only be deception, you have called God evil and your heart is set on rebellion against His will. There is no point in me saying the same thing again and again and again and you saying the opposite again and again and again.

This is what turned me away from God. You're wrong. Christianity is not the only pathway to God. So you dare say I don't know God since I am not a christian, that you are more holy than I even in your inflammatory and damning remarks? Or any of the others who reply with damning remarks against your damning remarks? God, in His infinite knowledge, didn't put His time and love into creating man just so He could predestine others to not find Him. Everyone will find Him eventually and get a chance. God did not create dispensable people. They are only dispensable to the 'believers' who love to say God is against you and you are going to go to hell. You act as the mouth of God and yet speak hate or pessimism against someone else. If your parents had guests in the house, your brother supposedly, and he belched at the table. Then you spited him by mouth and said you have done bad in my parents' name, you must get out. Then as your parents return to the table, they found out you said he had to get out when really it was a forgivable act and no big deal. Would they not be more mad at you then your brother? And mad because you spoke for them? So shall God be when you judge for God.

I admire your faithfulness in your faith Adstar and know God does too, I'm just trying to convey my message to help you and maybe it will help you help others more.

 

[Adstar]

cough cough...hey guys...umm nice intelligent talk here...sorry to interrupt you...
I was going to say that umm bible was made by people...and people are faulty too...so when quoting the bible...remember you have a high probability of quating people with faulty believes.

Ummm cough cough...hey man.... I have read posts like yours about 3000 times since i have been visiting this site and i got to tell you dude that it bores the excrement out of me.

 

[Adstar]

Hi usp8riot

This is what turned me away from God. You're wrong. Christianity is not the only pathway to God.

Jesus is the only way to God. That is central to my faith and i will say it. If i where to say otherwise just to look nice then i would be a traitor to my conscience to God.

So you dare say I don't know God since I am not a christian,

Yes i dare say it. Because i believe it. There is no other Way to reconciliation with God then through the Messiah Jesus.

that you are more holy than I even in your inflammatory and damning remarks?

Liar. I did not say that. it is you who seek to add that attitude to me to justify your rejection of the message i bring. God knows my every thought and attitude.

Or any of the others who reply with damning remarks against your damning remarks?

people are free to make any damning remarks to me that please. My confidence is in the Lord and no hate filled damning remarks and mocking lies against me will shake that confidence.

God, in His infinite knowledge, didn't put His time and love into creating man just so He could predestine others to not find Him.

You right. He did not predestine people to accept or reject Him. I am not a calvanist, i detest calvanisim. But God knows the future and He knows who will accept and who will reject Him.

Everyone will find Him eventually and get a chance. God did not create dispensable people.

You believe in the Universalist lie. I don't. Yes people get a chance to accept the salvation on offer through the Messiah Jesus. That is during their lives.

They are only dispensable to the 'believers' who love to say God is against you and you are going to go to hell.

I say God is against your belief. And if you hold onto that belief till your dieing day God will be against you into eternity.

You act as the mouth of God and yet speak hate or pessimism against someone else.

Pessimism maybe, but hate no. Its true i do not hold much hope for many of the people who post here. But that’s just me, i am just a human. I do not know the future path that each individual will take in here. Where there is life there is hope that some of the will come to accept the Messiah Jesus.

If your parents had guests in the house, your brother supposedly, and he belched at the table. Then you spited him by mouth and said you have done bad in my parents' name, you must get out. Then as your parents return to the table, they found out you said he had to get out when really it was a forgivable act and no big deal. Would they not be more mad at you then your brother? And mad because you spoke for them? So shall God be when you judge for God.

I do not tell them to get out. I tell them that belching is not good. and when they spit in my face and tell me not to preach to them about manners I warn then that they will be kicked out of the house by the Father. That often earns me a slap across the face from people like you sitting on the other side of the table saying ohhh its ok to belch and fart and spit and , and , and.. at the table don't worry when the Father comes he will lick your spit off the table.

I admire your faithfulness in your faith Adstar and know God does too, I'm just trying to convey my message to help you and maybe it will help you help others more.

What? You spend paragraph after paragraph insulting me and seeking to undermine the message and then you tell me God admires me? People like you make a show of being so accepting that in the end you stand for nothing. People like you are the greatest enemies of God i have seen, salt without taste, fence sitters without convictions, people heading for the pit and leading others into it as well.

I would rather discuss God with Osama Bin Laden and radical satanists then luke warm stand for nothing going nowhere people like you.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Confutatis]

Its true i do not hold much hope for many of the people who post here. But that’s just me, i am just a human. I do not know the future path that each individual will take in here. Where there is life there is hope that some of the will come to accept the Messiah Jesus.

Adstar,

I am Catholic and even though you and I believe in the same God, we obviously don't believe in the same creed. But I suspect the differences are only superficial, so I'd like to ask you this question:

Have you ever stopped to think what "accepting Jesus" means, apart from making a verbal confession that you accept Jesus? In other words, is it possible that some people have "accepted Jesus" without understanding what it really means, and that some people have accepted Jesus without being aware that they did?

To put it in even simpler terms, is it enough for a suspect of a crime to say "I confess to be innocent"? Does the judge really cares?

I am far more optimistic than you, and for a simple reason: words mean nothing, what really matters is how you live your life. But of course that is where Catholics differ from any other Christian faith.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

I've always found it entertaining to watch theists argue. My acceptance of truth without consideration to evidence is true and your acceptance of truth without consideration to evidence is false.

I bet any 10 theists can agree upon what an apple is pretty quickly. IMO, it should tip theists off that somethings is wrong if something so fundamental as 'God' produces so much disagreement.

 

[Confutatis]

I bet any 10 theists can agree upon what an apple is pretty quickly.

So what is an apple?

If I were you, I would be more careful. You can say an apple is a fruit, but what is a fruit, and why is it that not all fruits are apples? You can say an apple has a certain shape and a certain colour, but what is shape, what is colour, why is it that the apple has that shape and colour....

Do you see where this leads? We can only agree about something if we are being superficial; ultimately we don't agree or disagree as much as we find that we know nothing.

If, deep down, we don't even know what an apple is, how can we know what God is, when He is supposed to be infinitely more complicated than apples?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

So what is an apple?

If I were you, I would be more careful. You can say an apple is a fruit, but what is a fruit, and why is it that not all fruits are apples? You can say an apple has a certain shape and a certain colour, but what is shape, what is colour, why is it that the apple has that shape and colour....

Do you see where this leads? We can only agree about something if we are being superficial; ultimately we don't agree or disagree as much as we find that we know nothing.

If, deep down, we don't even know what an apple is, how can we know what God is, when He is supposed to be infinitely more complicated than apples?

An apple is a firm, edible, and usually rounded fruit. It grows on trees, has a smooth skin, and typically can be any combination of red, green, and yellow in coloration.

That's really all people need to know to uniquely distinguish an apple from anything else in their enviornment and a group of people can easily agree on what an apple is and prove their agreement by identifying an apple amongst several other physical constructs.

It doesn't really matter what atoms, quarks, strings, etc. the apple is composed of. It really doesn't matter that it has it's own gravitational field. What's important is knowing it exists, knowing how to identify it, and knowing how to interact with it.

Now bring 'God' into the picture. Where is it? How does anyone make the smallest observation of it? Ever since the idea of 'God' has been around, nobody has found evidence of it's existence and that prevents it from being observed. Thousands of years (or longer) of absent evidence is evidence of absence. It gets even hairier when religions make specific claims of 'God' because ultimately the process of science yields evidence that directly contradicts those claims (and we both know reality has the final word on truth).

 

[Jenyar]

SetiAlpha6

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you already seem to have made up your mind about what you're going to believe, and looking for ways to justify it. Your reading of the Bible doesn't reflect 40 years of Christianity, and many of the problems you have comes from your perspective on the Bible, especially the Old Testament. It doesn't seem like you take into account what Jesus came to do, and what it meant in the Jewish context in particular. The disciples and the first Christians were all Jews, until Peter's vision.

For instance, the nature of a covenant in the pre-Christian Near East was such that it was always mediated. No single person was an authority - everything went through the Sanhedrin or the Judges, not least of all the laws that required a death penalty. The latter was imposed in cases that amounted to treason (serving a different God is like serving a different king), and there could be no favouritism (even for brothers, wives or children). There were no prisons in the desert - the whole community had to live with the people that were judged, or he was "cut off" either through death or exile. And above all: though a law may require death, death might not actually be the result. Compare Numbers 35: a murderer may incur the death penalty under the law, but still receive mercy at the cities of refuge (grace). You can see where this is going. Beatings and wounds (i.e. punishment) may "drive out evil", but God can also intervene and take those wounds and beatings upon himself. One does not preclude the other - in fact, it necessitates it.

You may be tempted to feel guilty (or judged) for your confusion, but someone being burned or tortured for struggling with their faith - or for picking up sticks on a sabbath - is your imagination. Jesus: "is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray" (Heb. 5:2). Keep that in mind. And the advice for Christians is: "Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters".

So let's calm down and have a look at some of your difficulties.

...in Luke 14:26 (NKJV) Jesus said…

26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

How does this fit with the idea of Christian love?

Have a look at this Hebrew insight into the problem.

A man gathers sticks on the Sabbath day. God demands his death for this "evil" act and the whole congregation stoned him as a group until he died. Where is there any safety mechanism here? Where is there any mercy at all here? These are the kinds of things that really do not look right to me. This sounds like the words of misguided men not God.

The punishment here was for deliberately breaking the sabbath law (Ex. 35:2-3), not for innocently picking up sticks. And even then, death does not mean damnation. If someone has already been punished for breaking a law, there is no punishment left.

Though you may not understand the purpose of the sabbath, or the significance of God's laws regarding it, that doesn't mean God's judgement was flawed. The previous verses distinguish between defiant and unintentional sins, and this example is given as an example of intentional sin. If his sin was unintentional, he would have been eligible for mercy.

If salvation is by faith, and confusion or doubt is not faith, then someone who is confused or has doubts is not saved. Whatever is not from faith is sin. Am I wrong?

No, but you're confused. "Everything that does not come from faith is sin" (Rom. 14:23) refers to the justification for your actions when there is doubt about them, as in "the righteous shall live by faith". Doubt itself can a healthy part of faith (1 John 4:1). A lapse of faith will lead to confusion, being tossed about like a leaf (something I'm sure you can attest to at the moment), but that's why Jesus came: to create second chances and to be an anchor. Your life doesn't come to an end at the first mistake, and He does not abandon you at the first sign of doubt. It's usually the other way around.

Maybe you take the fulfilment of the prophecy that God will put his law into men's hearts for granted. Maybe it is so pervasive that you can't see it anymore. It means that the love you exercise - the vision you described in your first post - is the end (goal) of the law. As Paul says in Gal. 5:23: "Against such things there is no law." What you described is the fruit of God's Spirit, which was poured out on all people (Acts 2:17; cf. Romans 5:5).

But a law is not a law unless it also judges, and however little you like this, there's no way past it. The old and the new covenants exist in parallel, like a lifeboat next to a sinking ship. They serve the same goal, go to the same destination, and carry the same pasengers. "All Israel will be saved" (Rom. 11:26), just like God promised, but "not all who are descended from Israel are Israel" (Rom. 9:6).

Romans 11:
1 I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul says here that God has not cast away His people. Fine, I was wrong! But then in the same chapter of Romans, below, Paul says that it is God who blinds them so that they will not be able to believe! Essentially, Israel seeks God, but God blinds them. The same thing appears to be going on with the use of parables by Jesus. Why is God blinding His own people?
...
And, if God blinds His own people how can He then condemn them for what He has done?

Did you ask yourself how you were able to make such a mistake in the first place, to think that God cast Israel out? Are you so intent on making your point that you are being selective about what you read?

Because he also goes on to explain why Israel was blinded, not "so that they will not be able to believe", but so that their unbelief will actually blind them to Jesus, whose rejection meant that God's grace could become known outside Israel. "f they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again."

Rom. 11:30-32 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.​

And this brings us back to the law and justice. That we are guilty - and realize (through a law) that we are guilty - allows us to recognize God as our Saviour. It provides the contrast against which we can see the power of love, and the individual responsibility to put it into practice.

In fact, He has never forgiven a single sin that has ever occurred in this universe. He has always required payment in full. A debt that requires payment, even by someone else, is not forgiveness. True forgiveness, out of pure love for the other person, wipes out the debt without any payment whatsoever.

Heb. 10:26-27 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment...​

What you say sounds very noble on the surface, but you're not really considering the consequences. A little mental exercize should point out the probelm. Imagine this kind of "forgiveness" exercized in a country. All crime is forgiven in advance, and therefore tolerated; all criminals are pardoned, and share the same rights as people who respect the law. It sounds more like hell to me.

Pure love, no matter how holy and sufficient it is, does not by itself solve problems, and sin is a very real problem. It has consequences that reach beyond just the person who sins (and we have Adam & Eve as a prime example). Somewhere its legacy has to be physically lifted, at great price - and great sacrifice from someone. The only one who was able to physically make that sacrifice was God himself. He payed the price himself, and we received the forgiveness. Simply letting sin spread forever would have propagated the problem - as if it had an equal status as love, and as if God could find a way to condone it - not solved it.

 

[Confutatis]

An apple is a firm, edible, and usually rounded fruit. It grows on trees, has a smooth skin, and typically can be any combination of red, green, and yellow in coloration.

That's really all people need to know to uniquely distinguish an apple from anything else in their enviornment and a group of people can easily agree on what an apple is and prove their agreement by identifying an apple amongst several other physical constructs.

You are correct that we don't really need to know everything about apples for the notion of apples to be useful. You are also correct that there is no description of God that is as clear as the description of an apple. There is no description of God that allows you to walk into a supermarket and tell, "the apples are on aisle 18, the gods on aisle 12".

But if it is wrong to compare apples with oranges, it must be even more wrong to compare apples with God. In this particular case, the best comparison would be with something like "reality". And here you will find that it is as difficult to come up with a clear definition of reality as it is to come up with a clear description of God, that there is as much disagreement about the nature of one as there is about the nature of the other.

It doesn't really matter what atoms, quarks, strings, etc. the apple is composed of. It really doesn't matter that it has it's own gravitational field. What's important is knowing it exists, knowing how to identify it, and knowing how to interact with it.

If that is so, then why does it matter what God is, when the really important thing is to know He exists, how to identify Him, and how to interact with Him?

Before you're tempted to go on a tangent, let's try and keep this discussion focussed: I'm simply addressing your complaint that theists don't agree as to what God is, and you're right. But all theists would agree amongst themselves that God exists, that he can be identified by His works, and that you interact with Him through prayer. There is no disagreement whatsoever.

In other words, even though theists can't agree on what apples are, they all agree on the things about apples that, according to your own argument, are the things that really matter.

Where is it? How does anyone make the smallest observation of it?

I'm quite sure you already know the answers to those questions. You just don't accept them, which is fine.

Ever since the idea of 'God' has been around, nobody has found evidence of it's existence and that prevents it from being observed.

When you talk about evidence, I assume you mean things that can be perceived through our senses or inferred by our intellect. But if God is real, we cannot know anything about Him through our senses or our intellect, for those things depend on our physical constitution and are therefore prone to errors and illusions. If God is real, then our knowledge of Him must necessarily also be real, real in the sense that no observation or chain of logic can possibly prove it wrong.

Here is where the parallel with reality works best. We see reality, we infer that it must exist outside ourselves, but we may be wrong. For all we know, everything could be a grand illusion. However, except for Eastern mystics and a few lunatics, nobody doubts the existence of reality. To avoid controversy, I'll speak for myself only: I cannot be convinced, not by any observation, not by any chain of logic, that reality does not exist. And when I accept something as absolutely true, in spite of any possible evidence or argument to the contrary, what exactly am I doing? I am accepting it on faith!

Now how many times does this have to be repeated: the existence of God can only be asserted by faith! I feel almost like an idiot for saying this for the millionth time, when everyone is already tired of hearing it. But apparently it must be repeated until everyone finally gets it.

You don't accept things on faith? Fine. Just don't argue that they don't exist just because you have no faith in them.

 

[(Q)]

But if it is wrong to compare apples with oranges, it must be even more wrong to compare apples with God. In this particular case, the best comparison would be with something like "reality". And here you will find that it is as difficult to come up with a clear definition of reality as it is to come up with a clear description of God, that there is as much disagreement about the nature of one as there is about the nature of the other.

Complete nonsense. It is only theists (and kooks) who are unable to distinguish between reality and fantasy when it comes to nature and gods.

If that is so, then why does it matter what God is, when the really important thing is to know He exists, how to identify Him, and how to interact with Him?

That is exactly what theists continue to claim, and understandably so, as they are unable to distinguish reality from fantasy. You would by lying if you claimed you knew gods existed, that you could identify a god and most certainly, if you interacted with a god.

But all theists would agree amongst themselves that God exists, that he can be identified by His works, and that you interact with Him through prayer. There is no disagreement whatsoever.

They might agree, but that is entirely delusional as it can easily be shown prayer does not work. If it did, thousands of children would not starve to death every day.

When you talk about evidence, I assume you mean things that can be perceived through our senses or inferred by our intellect. But if God is real, we cannot know anything about Him through our senses or our intellect, for those things depend on our physical constitution and are therefore prone to errors and illusions. If God is real, then our knowledge of Him must necessarily also be real, real in the sense that no observation or chain of logic can possibly prove it wrong.

Then you contradict yourself if you claim to interact with gods, since you are as material as the rest of nature.

And when I accept something as absolutely true, in spite of any possible evidence or argument to the contrary, what exactly am I doing? I am accepting it on faith!

Correction, you are accepting it on blind faith!

You don't accept things on faith? Fine. Just don't argue that they don't exist just because you have no faith in them.

The problem is that you haven't distinguished between the two types of faith, there is faith in evidence and there is blind faith, both are mutually exclusive, and one is clearly elusive to theists.