What am I?

[usp8riot]

What? You spend paragraph after paragraph insulting me and seeking to undermine the message and then you tell me God admires me? People like you make a show of being so accepting that in the end you stand for nothing. People like you are the greatest enemies of God i have seen, salt without taste, fence sitters without convictions, people heading for the pit and leading others into it as well.

I do not stand for nothing, quite the opposite, I stand for all. I try to accept all just as God does. Just because you don't agree with me and I you in some points, I try to make and end statement just to make sure it is not something personal against you. I speak it as I see it. If I just used emotions, I wouldn't have much good to say of this reply since it does provoke negative emotion but I am just using reason. Didn't people think Jesus was salt without no taste with his lack of convictions? To stand for all and cast no one in the lake of fire by mouth? He was lukewarm as you speak of me and others who try to accept all, and he hadn't much fire in him. At that's what a Godly man is, a man of peace. Who speaks not out of haste or with fire or ice in his speech, but of reason and acceptance for all. Be not quick to cast your brethren in the lake of fire by your mouth or else God will do the same. And judge not lest ye be judged yourself or else God will do the same. And offend not lest ye be offended yourself.

 

[Adstar]

Adstar,

I am Catholic and even though you and I believe in the same God, we obviously don't believe in the same creed. But I suspect the differences are only superficial, so I'd like to ask you this question:

I was born into catholicism Confutatis and i thank the God Of Abraham that he gave me the wisdom to see the evil of it. His Word lead me away from the spiritual harlotry of the catholic church and into the truth of Jesus. So as you might suspect i do not agree with your assessment that the differences between me and you are superficial. I believe they are as wide as day and night.

Have you ever stopped to think what "accepting Jesus" means, apart from making a verbal confession that you accept Jesus?

Verbal confessions mean nothing if one supports practices and doctrines that are against the teaching of the one whom one confesses belief in. Like when you use repetitious prayers to mary in the rosary. Jesus makes it clear to His followers in the Beatitudes not to engage in repetitious prayers. Of course that just touches the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the abominations of catholic doctrine that you support. You are a catholic and therefore must support without question all of the doctrines delivered to you by your religious authorities.

In other words, is it possible that some people have "accepted Jesus" without understanding what it really means,

No. To accept something one has to know who they are accepting and what they are accepting.

and that some people have accepted Jesus without being aware that they did?

Some people do love the Word of Jesus but have not yet read His Word. As Paul said:

Romans 2
14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

To put it in even simpler terms, is it enough for a suspect of a crime to say "I confess to be innocent"? Does the judge really cares?

what?

I am far more optimistic than you, and for a simple reason: words mean nothing, what really matters is how you live your life. But of course that is where Catholics differ from any other Christian faith.

I am sure you are far more confident, your church has twisted the word of God so much that you suspect that the Word of God matters for naught and that God will overlook all the other lies of other "religions" because being true to the truth is of no importance. You think you are saved. I don't think you are. But don't feel singled out just because you are a believer in the doctrines of the catholic church. There are many more churches than the catholic one that preach lies in the name of Jesus. They also believe in "Another Jesus" there are many religious roads that lead to the lake of fire. catholicism in but one.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Complete nonsense. It is only theists (and kooks) who are unable to distinguish between reality and fantasy when it comes to nature and gods.



That is exactly what theists continue to claim, and understandably so, as they are unable to distinguish reality from fantasy. You would by lying if you claimed you knew gods existed, that you could identify a god and most certainly, if you interacted with a god.



They might agree, but that is entirely delusional as it can easily be shown prayer does not work. If it did, thousands of children would not starve to death every day.



Then you contradict yourself if you claim to interact with gods, since you are as material as the rest of nature.



Correction, you are accepting it on blind faith!



The problem is that you haven't distinguished between the two types of faith, there is faith in evidence and there is blind faith, both are mutually exclusive, and one is clearly elusive to theists.

Pretty much what Q said.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

There are almost as many different interpretations of the Bible in existence as there are churches in existence, thousands of them. Why is that, when the same Spirit is supposed to be leading all of us unto all the truth, the same truth? Oh I know, the other guy is blinded by sin! Right? Or perhaps he just doesn’t really want to know the truth like I do! “Really, he doesn’t!” “Let me show you in the Word!” “He is leading other people into hell!” “Something must be done!”

Something has been done! Millions of real flesh and blood people have already been killed over these “little” differences in doctrine and many more will kill or be killed over them in the future. Here is just one example. Calvinists have killed Arminians and Arminians have killed Calvinists under the battle cries, His Will Be Done, To God Be the Glory, Praise the Lord, Onward Christian Soldiers…

Each side thinks that they alone have the one true gospel and that the other side is evil, worthy of death, and leading others away from the one absolute true gospel, THEIRS! Even today, many in the House of Christ would certainly be willing to go to war and kill their own Christian Brothers over such differences in belief.

And we are still so arrogant that we will stand up in a forum like this and claim that the whole world should look to us for answers? Well, which of our churches should they look to? The House of Christ is at war within itself! Which side of the battle should they join? Who has the real gospel? Who has the complete plan of salvation? Do you? Do I? Does Anyone? And why should anyone believe us?

I have studied this particular doctrinal problem for many years and have personally concluded that the Bible actually does teach BOTH, Calvinism and Arminianism! And each side really can “prove” their case with scripture. And that this can easily become the basis upon which a man will decide to kill another. Have scripture will kill! The Bible also seems to teach total opposites as truth in other areas of the faith as well. Great? Even more reasons to kill each other. I believe that these people have killed and have been killed in the name of God merely over the contradictions that exist in the Bible.

The Bible is flawed. The question for me is how flawed?

 

[Adstar]

There are almost as many different interpretations of the Bible in existence as there are churches in existence, thousands of them. Why is that, when the same Spirit is supposed to be leading all of us unto all the truth, the same truth? Oh I know, the other guy is blinded by sin! Right? Or perhaps he just doesn’t really want to know the truth like I do! “Really, he doesn’t!” “Let me show you in the Word!” “He is leading other people into hell!” “Something must be done!”

Something has been done! Millions of real flesh and blood people have already been killed over these “little” differences in doctrine and many more will kill or be killed over them in the future. Here is just one example. Calvinists have killed Arminians and Arminians have killed Calvinists under the battle cries, His Will Be Done, To God Be the Glory, Praise the Lord, Onward Christian Soldiers…

True Christians have never engaged in mortal combat our weapons are not carnal but spiritual, our weapon is the Word of God that pulls down the fortresses of spiritual wickedness in the minds of those deceived.

II Corinthians 10:3,4
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds."

Each side thinks that they alone have the one true gospel and that the other side is evil, worthy of death, and leading others away from the one absolute true gospel, THEIRS! Even today, many in the House of Christ would certainly be willing to go to war and kill their own Christian Brothers over such differences in belief.

Then they are not following Christ if they are willing to kill anyone over their beliefs. Its dead simple and as clear as day. Anyone who takes up arms and kills another over religious differences has just demonstrated in a clear way they are not followers of the Messiah Jesus, and therefore their claim to be is false and their actions are a vain waste of time.

And we are still so arrogant that we will stand up in a forum like this and claim that the whole world should look to us for answers? Well, which of our churches should they look to? The House of Christ is at war within itself! Which side of the battle should they join? Who has the real gospel? Who has the complete plan of salvation? Do you? Do I? Does Anyone? And why should anyone believe us?

People tend to believe what they want to believe. But then again people can be convicted of the truth and be meek enough to accept they are wrong. The truth stands let each person accept or reject it as they deem fit in the end they play a central role in their own justification or condemnation. Its a simple system if you think about it. Those that love and trust God will give up their pride and follow Him out of trust.

I have studied this particular doctrinal problem for many years and have personally concluded that the Bible actually does teach BOTH, Calvinism and Arminianism! And each side really can “prove” their case with scripture. And that this can easily become the basis upon which a man will decide to kill another. Have scripture will kill! The Bible also seems to teach total opposites as truth in other areas of the faith as well. Great? Even more reasons to kill each other. I believe that these people have killed and have been killed in the name of God merely over the contradictions that exist in the Bible.

The Bible is flawed. The question for me is how flawed?

The Bible is not flawed people are flawed the meek understand this, the proud declare themselves perfect by declaring the Word of God flawed.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[urielswing]

From the original post it seems that you are an Agnostic Christian. This means that you believe in the generally in the Judo-Christian value system but are disillusioned by the schisms in the church. What you need to do is starts looking at different believes and find one that doesn’t make you rely on something that you don’t trust. If the Lord is a just God he will understand that you were lead from the path by those that came before you in the faith. He would prefer that to faking belief in a system you find flawed. The only way to find your way to God through Christ is trusting and believing that the path you’re taking is a good one.

 

[Jenyar]

Have scripture will kill! The Bible also seems to teach total opposites as truth in other areas of the faith as well. Great? Even more reasons to kill each other. I believe that these people have killed and have been killed in the name of God merely over the contradictions that exist in the Bible.

I'm with Adstar on this one. Please explain how you would justify killing - for any understanding of scripture - from a Christian perspective? Someone who kills in the name of some Christian doctrine places himself outside of Christ, which would defeat the purpose. Or did you think cries of "His Will Be Done, To God Be the Glory, Praise the Lord, Onward Christian Soldiers" actually justified anything? Does simply shouting "Allahu Akhbar" ensure a terrorist a place in heaven?

That the Bible doesn't offer a point of view about which there can be no possible disagreement (does such a thing even exist?) doesn't mean it is fatally flawed. At most it can mean you've read it with an agenda in mind, and ignored the parts that contradicted your own conclusion. Here's a few worst case scenarios from the New Testament:

Titus 3:8-10 This is a trustworthy saying. And I want you to stress these things, so that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone.

But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.

2 Tim. 2:23-26 Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.​

And my personal favourite:

1 Cor. 8:1-3 ...We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God.​

PS. Can you point out one of the contradictions that has caused people to kill, or is it just a reason why you think they kill each other?

 

[Jenyar]

Re: Calvinism vs Armenianism

"Keep in mind that in debating Calvinism do not allow yourself to be trapped in the bifurcation (black and white or two option only) fallacy that non-Calvinists are Arminianists. This is a good example of a false dichotomy being used to distract people from the real issue at hand. You can reject both if you like. You can be neither. The fact is that these two viewpoints represent two extreme views, the outer boundaries on a continuum, but the real answer is somewhere in between. The final answer is not that salvation is God zapping you into being a believer, or that you must work your way to heaven. ..."​

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Thanks, Jenyar

I will continue to study these things in the years that follow. I guess I feel like scripture is jerking me around. I find in one place that God is impartial then in another place I find that He is not. In one place it says that God doesn’t tempt man with evil but in another place it looks like He really does. In some places it teaches that salvation is by faith alone. But in other places the Bible teaches that salvation itself (not rewards) is "according to our deeds." In some places it teaches that salvation involves a freewill decision and still in other places it indicates that salvation has nothing to do with our will or desire at all, it is all predestined. In one place it says that “God is love” but there are a number of other examples that indicate that He is not. In 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 godly love is described but is God all of these things? Is God ever “provoked”? Does He "endure all things"? Is the existence of an Eternal Hell of torment loving? Can it honestly even be considered to be justice? I am having some serious trouble with this one!

These are only a few of the issues I am looking into. All I really ever wanted was to understand these things so I could teach my own children what this stuff means. But right now I am seeing some internal contradictions in the Bible and even some moral difficulties as well.

Thank You for Your Concern!

 

[Jenyar]

Thanks, Jenyar

I will continue to study these things in the years that follow. I guess I feel like scripture is jerking me around. I find in one place that God is impartial then in another place I find that He is not. In one place it says that God doesn’t tempt man with evil but in another place it looks like He really does. In some places it teaches that salvation is by faith alone. But in other places the Bible teaches that salvation itself (not rewards) is "according to our deeds." In some places it teaches that salvation involves a freewill decision and still in other places it indicates that salvation has nothing to do with our will or desire at all, it is all predestined. In one place it says that “God is love” but there are a number of other examples that indicate that He is not. In 1 Corinthians 13:1-13 godly love is described but is God all of these things? Is God ever “provoked”? Does He "endure all things"? Is the existence of an Eternal Hell of torment loving? Can it honestly even be considered to be justice? I am having some serious trouble with this one!

These are only a few of the issues I am looking into. All I really ever wanted was to understand these things so I could teach my own children what this stuff means. But right now I am seeing some internal contradictions in the Bible and even some moral difficulties as well.

Thank You for Your Concern!

It's really my pleasure. Feel free to PM me with any of these questions, or if you just want to bounce ideas around.

Regarding contradictions... sometimes it simply means we need to do a little more thinking. There are also such things as apparent contradictions, paradoxes. You don't see scientists questioning their field because light seems to be both wave and particle, or because of the problem of complementarity in quantum physics. Sometimes the problem is simply in how the truth has been phrased.

"In the simple case of the hydrogen atom one could calculate from Bohr's theory the frequencies of the light emitted by the atom, and the agreement with the observations was perfect. Yet these frequencies were different from the orbital frequencies and their harmonies of the electrons circling around the nucleus, and this fact showed at once that the theory was still full of contradictions. But it contained an essential part of the truth. It did explain qualitatively the chemical behaviour of the atoms and their line spectra; the existence of the discrete stationary states was verified by the experiments of Franck and Hertz, Stern and Gerlach." -- from The History of Quantum Theory​