We would never wish anything so horrible on anyone.

spidergoat said:
I think that's a load of crap. Even on this forum, we have seen death threats against atheists that warranted investigation by the Canadian police! I think many Christians absolutely LOVE to say that other people are going to burn in hell. That reinforces their idea that they won't burn in hell, so it gives them a feeling of peace.
Click to expand...
Again, NO True Christian would say that.

Even atheists may be saved. The Catholic Church recognizes this. It is possible for those who through not fault of their own do not know Jesus or his Church...but who still seek God...and seek to live according to his will as they see in their conscience ...

It will of course still be Jesus who saves them...(and Christians are to proclaim Christ..the Gospel to them)

Or even atheists...

as the Church noted at the Second Vatican Council:

"Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life (LG 16)

Whoever is saved in the end...will be saved by Jesus Christ...even if he has never heard of him or the Church ....and in relation to the Church.

But yes if a person has heard the Gospel...and rejected Christ..this is not a positive sign...

(or if I did so..I would be in grave trouble! ...I too can end up choosing hell).

Having said that..

Now there can be "more to the story" they may have not heard it properly ...not really ...or were beat by someone claiming to be doing so as a Christian or something...lots can go into why this question...etc etc etc

Well...you may not have the right introduction here..to the actual Jesus.

bottom line ..we do not know ....

God can give graces...we have no knowledge of...

And as the Second Vatican Council notes:

ince Christ died for all men, and since the ultimate vocation of man is in fact one, and divine, we ought to believe that the Holy Spirit in a manner known only to God offers to every man the possibility of being associated with this paschal mystery [Gaudium et Spes 22].

and God does He wills our salvation...and knows what the person may have rejected (a fake portrait of Jesus) etc..

Hope that helps.
 
It is a no true Scotsman because there's nothing in the definition of a christian that precludes this behavior. So by saying that no "true" christian would do these things he's ignoring the agreed upon definition in favor of his own personal definition. Thus the fallacy.
 
Mind Over Matter said:
Again, NO True Christian would say that.

Even atheists may be saved.
Click to expand...

You are the arbiter of what is true Christianity? I agree atheists may be saved. By atheism. And you may be too. People find inspiration and enlightenment in various ways that suit them. We don't all need Superjew to save us.
 
Mind Over Matter said:
No, and I never said that.
Click to expand...

Given the objectivist manner in which you speak, you are indeed presenting yourself as the arbiter on who is a true Christian and who isn't (and an arbiter on numerous other matters).


You said:

Again, NO True Christian would say that.
Click to expand...

By saying that, you confirm that you believe you are the arbiter on who is a true Christian and who isn't.
 
Dywyddyr said:
Oops, wrong.
See my first post in this thread.
Still not getting it right, are you?
Click to expand...

You don't and never will get it as you try ascribe human morals to a being that literally ten thousand years inthe merest of moments.

Read the bible, God does everything God can outside of taking away free choice to stop people from ignoring God's grace and compassion. God gave us clear and easy to follow rules, the ten Commandments. God then sent God's only begottwn child to us to be killed for our sins. To get absolution all we need do is ask and attempt to live better lives. Lives capable of preparing us for living in God's grace.

Now if a person cannot follow the ten Commandments, cannot ask forgiveness and cannot at least try to live better, why should they be allowed the rewards that the people who do all that can.

As for the burning in hell, that is a bit of a mix up. Even Satan is not thrown in the Pit of Fire untill the End of Days. The one descripti0on of a soul living outside of gods grace is a man who could see other living in contentment, but he himself could not even get water to quench his thirst. There was no burning pits or devils torturing him. Just the absence of anything good.
 
Last edited:
Signal said:
Given the objectivist manner in which you speak, you are indeed presenting yourself as the arbiter on who is a true Christian and who isn't (and an arbiter on numerous other matters).


You said:



By saying that, you confirm that you believe you are the arbiter on who is a true Christian and who isn't.
Click to expand...

Actually he is not the arbiter, the standard was laid down by jesus and included "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." and "Love the Sinner, hate the sin.". In all reality no true christian wants anyone to be in hell. Why would we?
 
LoRaan said:
You don't and never will get it as you try ascribe human morals to a being that literally ten thousand years inthe merest of moments.

Read the bible, God does everything God can outside of taking away free choice to stop people from ignoring God's grace and compassion. God gave us clear and easy to follow rules, the ten Commandments. God then sent God's only begottwn child to us to be killed for our sins. To get absolution all we need do is ask and attempt to live better lives. Lives capable of preparing us for living in God's grace.

Now if a person cannot follow the ten Commandments, cannot ask forgiveness and cannot at least try to live better, why should they be allowed the rewards that the people who do all that can.

As for the burning in hell, that is a bit of a mix up. Even Satan is not thrown in the Pit of Fire untill the End of Days. The one descripti0on of a soul living outside of gods grace is a man who could see other living in contentment, but he himself could not even get water to quench his thirst. There was no burning pits or devils torturing him. Just the absence of anything good.
Click to expand...

god cant seem to work out what the fuck he wants (it just happens to coincide with whatever those in power want), for instance "love" is the most important thing, except aparently its better for a girl to be RAPED than for people to have concentual sex with someone they loved. And aparently looking behind you is evil too.

Then there is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw

aparently its worse for someone to be gay than to be a serial killer, rapist AND child molester.

Oh and its ok to kill your brother and fuck your mum as long and you arnt gay
 
LoRaan said:
Actually he is not the arbiter, the standard was laid down by jesus and included "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." and "Love the Sinner, hate the sin."
Click to expand...

The one who makes arbitrating statements in a given conversation, is presuming themselves to be the arbiter.

It doesn't matter whom they name as a reference.

We do not know what Jesus would say or do in this particular situation, so refering to Jesus as an authority for your statement, is a bogus appeal to authority.
 
Asguard said:
god cant seem to work out what the fuck he wants (it just happens to coincide with whatever those in power want), for instance "love" is the most important thing, except aparently its better for a girl to be RAPED than for people to have concentual sex with someone they loved. And aparently looking behind you is evil too.

Then there is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFkeKKszXTw

aparently its worse for someone to be gay than to be a serial killer, rapist AND child molester.

Oh and its ok to kill your brother and fuck your mum as long and you arnt gay
Click to expand...

First of all you are taking specific instances and making them seem to be a wide application.

Sodom and Gammorrah were destroyed becuase of the Rapes. Lot's Wife was told not toe look back, but that was a one time thing.

In some of the other stories i would say King James Mysongyny and Homophobia have rewritten the bible formthe original translations.
 
Signal said:
The one who makes arbitrating statements in a given conversation, is presuming themselves to be the arbiter.

It doesn't matter whom they name as a reference.

We do not know what Jesus would say or do in this particular situation, so refering to Jesus as an authority for your statement, is a bogus appeal to authority.
Click to expand...

Except we have specific examples that cover a wide arrays of what Jesus has said and done. I mean your explanation might have a leg to stand on if she didn;t have his teachings, but we do.
 
LoRaan said:
Except we have specific examples that cover a wide arrays of what Jesus has said and done. I mean your explanation might have a leg to stand on if she didn;t have his teachings, but we do.
Click to expand...

By refering to Jesus, you still presume that you know what Jesus would do in a particular situation.

It's preposterous to think you know what some other person (even the Son of God!!) would do in a particular situation, and even more preposterous to suggest your judgment in a situation is as authoritative as that other person's.
 
@LoRaan

God does everything God can outside of taking away free choice to stop people from ignoring God's grace and compassion.
Click to expand...

1. We have no evidence that free will even exists.

2. If we have free will and god gave it to us, then god is immoral.

God gave us clear and easy to follow rules, the ten Commandments.
Click to expand...

The only useful commandments, don't murder, don't steal, and don't bear false witness, were plagiarized from previous civilizations. They were in existence thousands of years before they were written in the bible. In fact, such morals have been universal in every successful human society in the history of mankind(leading, naturally, to a biological origin for them). The rest are either useless(such as the command against idolatry) or impossible to follow(the command against coveting which is part and parcel of human nature).

God then sent God's only begottwn child to us to be killed for our sins.
Click to expand...

And what a stupid way to do it. If god is truly omnipotent(though this is completely counter to scripture, just read Judges) and the author of evil(which is scripturally accurate) then he could merely will it away and thus save every single living being.

To get absolution all we need do is ask and attempt to live better lives.
Click to expand...

I maintain that we need no absolution.

Lives capable of preparing us for living in God's grace.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I'd rather cease to exist.

Except we have specific examples that cover a wide arrays of what Jesus has said and done.
Click to expand...

Shenanigans! I call shenanigans.

We don't have even one contemporary account of the life of Jesus. Even the Josephus wasn't born until decades later, and didn't mention him until nearly sixty years after he supposedly died.
 
Signal said:
By refering to Jesus, you still presume that you know what Jesus would do in a particular situation.

It's preposterous to think you know what some other person (even the Son of God!!) would do in a particular situation, and even more preposterous to suggest your judgment in a situation is as authoritative as that other person's.
Click to expand...

Matthew,Mark,Luke and John..tells what jesus DID in particular situations.

and several times it mentions 'true christian', so your argument does not consider what one thinks of as a 'true christian' VS what the bible says is a 'true christian'
(IOW is the person using it in a 'i'm right/your wrong' context or a 'this is what the bible says it is' context..
 
@NM --

If you accept their writings, which I don't for many reasons. For one thing, we have no idea who actually wrote them. For another thing, they weren't written until decades after the supposed events took place, making them second hand accounts at best. Third, regardless of who wrote them, we know that they were human and thus subject to human flaws like wishful thinking and dishonesty.

and several times it mentions 'true christian', so your argument does not consider what one thinks of as a 'true christian' VS what the bible says is a 'true christian'
Click to expand...

I think you're full of shit. I can't find a single passage in the bible where it gives the definition of a "true christian". I've found places where it says that Jesus' followers will live by the word of god, but that means that anything other than atheism is allowed as god commanded murder, rape, genocide, slavery, and numerous other atrocious acts.

Regardless, as I've already said, all of this falls by the wayside if you don't consider the bible to be an accurate text, and given the enormous number of times it's been edited(the bible is the most heavily edited text in all of human history) I don't see how we could possibly consider it accurate.
 
Arioch said:
@LoRaan



1. We have no evidence that free will even exists.
Click to expand...

The end has been pre determined, but the only way it gets there is the free will of man

2. If we have free will and god gave it to us, then god is immoral.
Click to expand...

I don't dispute this.

The only useful commandments, don't murder, don't steal, and don't bear false witness, were plagiarized from previous civilizations. They were in existence thousands of years before they were written in the bible. In fact, such morals have been universal in every successful human society in the history of mankind(leading, naturally, to a biological origin for them). The rest are either useless(such as the command against idolatry) or impossible to follow(the command against coveting which is part and parcel of human nature).
God needs not scream his word from a mountain for it to be applied.

'You shall have no other gods before Me.' It says nothing about gods under him. You yourself can be a "god" so long you understand your creator.

'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.' This pertains to the secrecy of God.

'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.' As long as you understand who the good guy is your golden on this one.

'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.' You don't need to celebrate it, only understand why.

The rest is common sense.

And what a stupid way to do it. If god is truly omnipotent(though this is completely counter to scripture, just read Judges) and the author of evil(which is scripturally accurate) then he could merely will it away and thus save every single living being.
Click to expand...

He could, but he won't. For good reason. Are you saying God created Lucifer? Yes, he did. Remember who he is though, the great deceiver.

I maintain that we need no absolution.
Click to expand...



Honestly, I'd rather cease to exist.
Click to expand...

Why?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
@Knowledge --

It's not that he wouldn't help the Hebrews against the plainsmen, he promised that he would, it says explicitly that he couldn't stop their iron chariots because they were made of iron(so apparently god is Fey). That is, to put it bluntly, quite pathetic. Give the the right equipment and I could stop an army of iron chariots, hell, I could even build something which could outright destroy them. For god not to be able to do this signifies both a lack of power and a lack of knowledge, which is exactly what we would expect if these were stories written by ignorant people living thousands of years ago.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top