I thought V6:38 was talking about the Lawhul Mahfuz, the Protected Tablet, not the Qur'an. Or is there disagreement here too?
Virgins anyone???
- Thread starter Vega
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I thought V6:38 was talking about the Lawhul Mahfuz, the Protected Tablet, not the Qur'an. Or is there disagreement here too?
Why not read the WHOLE verse and then comment on it?
[38] There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have We omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end.
Yes Yes Yes! I see huge error in this! How is a Muslim to know what to believe? There are various collections of Hadiths of varying degrees of authenticity and disagreements on this authenticity. There are Islamic jurists that say this, and others who say that. How do YOU know what to believe? How CAN you know what to believe?
Exactly! That's why I assumed it was referring to the Lawhul Mahfuz.
The same way you do everything else. By increasing knowledge
[114] High above all is Allah, the King, the Truth! be not in haste with the Qur-an before its revelation to thee is completed, but say, "O my Lord! advance me in knowledge."
The reason one assumes homosexuality was common in Muhammad's (pbuh) time is because Allah provides pre-pubescent virgin boys in Paradise. Who else would find this attractive? But then the Qur'an condemns homosexuality. Presumably a homosexual wouldn't make it to paradise. A quandary is it not?
Since neither pre-pubescent boys (virgin or experienced) nor a condemnation of homosexuality can be adequately and critically demonstrated in the Quran, you can paddle away on denial.
3:7 But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not of well-established meaning. Seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its true meanings except Allah.
I must be mis-interpreting 4:15-4:18 then. Here is some commentary:
And when two of you (read wa’lladhāni or wa’lladhānni) men, commit it, that is, a lewd act, adultery or homosexual intercourse, punish them both, with insults and beatings with sandals; but if they repent, of this [lewd act], and make amends, through [good] action, then leave them be, and do not harm them. God ever turns [relenting], to those who repent, and is Merciful, to them. This [verse] is abrogated by the prescribed punishment if adultery is meant [by the lewd act], and similarly if homosexual intercourse is meant, according to al-Shāfi‘ī; but according to him, the person who is the object of the [penetrative] act is not stoned, even if he be married; rather, he is flogged and banished.
Young boys are in paradise as described in the Qur'an, handsome youths of perpetual freshness. I guess they might just be waiters serving drinks.
052.024 Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them. Youths (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded.
056.017 Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness),
076.019 And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls.
More "translations", whats the word in the Quran for prepubescent boys?
And please, do not confuse between the Quran and Hadith.
Refer to my post above.
I once read it could be translated as 72 white raisins.
But really it doesn't matter. All monotheistic religions promise something good for obeying God, be it hot sex or nice fruit, whatever it's paradise and some sort of punishment for not obeying God. The thing I find funny, is God, being able to do anything - could (in theory) write a book that was so moving that any and all humans who read it would instantly find it compelling to obey God without the need of a carrot and the stick.
Xians read their Bible thinking it's the "literal" word of God and Muslim read the Qur'an thinking it's the "literal" word of God yet no one else does. We don't see Japanese or Chinese studying this awe inspiring words of the Creator of Universe and all that is in it - because when they read these books they simply think that they're funny stories and that's it. These books are not treasure tombs overflowing with great pearls of wisdom to anyone other than than the people who are Xian or Muslim. Scientologists spend their entire lives pouring over all the nuances of the Great Words of Ron L Hubbard - exactly like the Bible or Qur'an these miraculous insights into humanity itself only appear self evident to the devout.
Some people will, just like the Scientologists, waste their lives studying what they think are these great words from the God itself.
Which brings us back to the virgins and hell. Because the books are not filled with any more or any less wisdom then a Ron Hubbard SciFi the theologian must instead appeal to the most base of human's nature - procreation and fear.
But really it doesn't matter. All monotheistic religions promise something good for obeying God, be it hot sex or nice fruit, whatever it's paradise and some sort of punishment for not obeying God. The thing I find funny, is God, being able to do anything - could (in theory) write a book that was so moving that any and all humans who read it would instantly find it compelling to obey God without the need of a carrot and the stick.
Xians read their Bible thinking it's the "literal" word of God and Muslim read the Qur'an thinking it's the "literal" word of God yet no one else does. We don't see Japanese or Chinese studying this awe inspiring words of the Creator of Universe and all that is in it - because when they read these books they simply think that they're funny stories and that's it. These books are not treasure tombs overflowing with great pearls of wisdom to anyone other than than the people who are Xian or Muslim. Scientologists spend their entire lives pouring over all the nuances of the Great Words of Ron L Hubbard - exactly like the Bible or Qur'an these miraculous insights into humanity itself only appear self evident to the devout.
Some people will, just like the Scientologists, waste their lives studying what they think are these great words from the God itself.
Which brings us back to the virgins and hell. Because the books are not filled with any more or any less wisdom then a Ron Hubbard SciFi the theologian must instead appeal to the most base of human's nature - procreation and fear.
I just assumed he was responsible for that particular interpretation when you brought him up. So if he is not referencing the Koran, what is his writing based upon?
Since he was born 200 years after Mohammed died, its based on an oral tradition of what Mohammed said. Even then his Sunan recites it as 72 wives, I think, the virgins probably sounded better to other people, who knows?
Anyway, the 72 virgins is a popular story and is good for mocking the desperation of people in occupied lands and reducing their suicides to a joke. "Hahahaha he blew himself up for 72 virgins" sounds much better than "he blew himself up because without food, employment or access to education and healthcare, he could no longer find any way to support his family and just wanted to do something violent and get it over with and take some of those who were responsible for his conditions with him"
Much better to consider them mad rather than sane.
The truth of course is different:
Margaret Nydell states that mainstream Muslims regard this belief about 72 virgins in the same way that mainstream Christians regard the belief that after death they will be issued with wings and a harp, and walk on clouds
If this were true, poor disadvantaged people of all faiths all over the world would be blowing themselves up.
But it is NOT true. Muslims of all economic strata blow themselves up as part of Jihad, to die fighting for Allah, which is the ONLY guaranteed way to get to this paradise. A paradise curiously designed to appeal mainly to young men.
Who said anything about poor or disadvantaged?
Most suicide bombers in fact come from the more educated, more secular families and tend to be better off than the general population.
That is why they tend to look for methods that have worked and are minimal expense with maximum impact.
I believe the LTTE has been a great inspiration in this regard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTTE
I read an interview in Time with a Iraqi "handler" whose job it was to convince rich Arab Muslims from KSA to blow themselves up. He said a lot of time they were scared - really scared, and so he would remind them of how things were going to get really really good for them really soon. The 72 virgins was one such thing he reminded them of. So he said anyway.
I'd say these kids were not mad or insane - but a life long indoctrination process / religious belief had probably thoroughly and completely brainwashed them.
I'd say that the Iraqi handler for al Qaeda in Iraq was an Egyptian actor who made up stories.
The brainwashed people are present more in the west; they follow any bullshit if you package it nicely and present it from an authorattative source.
Saudis are highly materialistic people. Idealists like OBL are few and far between.
Could be. But someone has to organize the people who obviously are blowing themselves up.
According to the interview he is an Iraqi. He said that after they, Sunni Iraqies, defeat the Americans then they will have to turn around and defeat Al Qaeda. He is not interested in a theocratic State. But for now they have a common enemy.
Also, this was an interview like a year or so ago.
According to the interview he is an Iraqi. He said that after they, Sunni Iraqies, defeat the Americans then they will have to turn around and defeat Al Qaeda. He is not interested in a theocratic State. But for now they have a common enemy.
Also, this was an interview like a year or so ago.
Because most Americans are Xian I think they sympathize with what the leaders were telling them. They like the "idea" that Muslims are evil and Mohammad was either Satan himself or tricked by Satan. Certainly such a scenario would fit nicely within most mainstream Xian belief. Playing off such xenophobic religious fears is common to most governments. The only thing that can kind of keep this in check is democratic institutions. If we make the assumption that the majority of people do not have their heads completely up their theocratic arse. Also, having a bad guy is as old as civilization itself. Mohammad didn't designate non-believers for nothing.
It's a common, if vulgar, strategy. Us vs Them.
It's a common, if vulgar, strategy. Us vs Them.
