huh!! I'm sure that must have been my stowaway buddy Vince, he comes from somewhere in India he speaks many languages. He probably was fooling around on my comp when I crashed out!!...the fool must have thought he was on a dating site!!hahaha:m:
Virgins anyone???
- Thread starter Vega
- Start date
huh!! I'm sure that must have been my stowaway buddy Vince, he comes from somewhere in India he speaks many languages. He probably was fooling around on my comp when I crashed out!!...the fool must have thought he was on a dating site!!hahaha
This guy?
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1159530&postcount=54
Yes you're right SAM I AM, I wrote hastily. I acknowledge some scholars view this sex appeal as being for both sexes.
Nevertheless my question still stands. Does it seem godly to you that a god would appeal to the base instincts of Man (vis a vis rampant sex with virgins) as a motivation to be obedient, rather than appealing to the spiritual?
And I am still interested in the rationale for the 72. Even though it is not in the Qur'an it is still widely believed.
-- Rev
I see the answer is NO
So it does NOT seem godly to you Allah's vision of paradise? But you believe it?
The answer is NO to the question "Can you Read"?
SAM, that was your question to me! I apologized for my hasty remark.
You can tell me to go to H*** but no need to be obtuse.
The irony is astounding.
Sorry just go back and read the meaning of the word hurin.
As for the source of the 72 virgins myth, you'll have to ask Tirmidhi.
Or Vega.
Or make up your own, there was an interesting astrological rendition from QuestionEverything.
So you're saying that Tirmidhi was in error? Was he an arabic speaker himself? Why would he make such an error?
If your interpretation is correct, then the deal is some undefined number of clear eyed companions? Is that correct?
A Google search of 72 virgins reveals this from The Straight Dope.com.
So the Hadith promise:
"The least [reward] for the people of Heaven is 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome of pearls, aquamarine and ruby."
While the Koran itself contains only:Let's return to the Koran, Islam's font of religious authority. Even if we leave out the racy detail and make allowances for metaphor, we're obliged to admit that Islamic heaven is a pretty rockin' place, with an emphasis on sensual pleasures. The provision of virgins in indeterminate quantities is alluded to at numerous points, and you know they're not just there to fluff the pillows. (In fairness to the Prophet, the physical quality usually attributed to the houris, as they're called, is "wide lovely eyes.") The food, service, ambience., etc, are great. You're allowed to enjoy things the Koran explicitly denies you on earth, such as alcohol, and you won't even get sick.
So he included "wide lovely eyes" translation, but still says that the Koran promises The provision of virgins in indeterminate quantities is alluded to at numerous points.Is this also incorrect? Because it sounds like the only question is how many virgins (or "companions with wide lovely eyes") you'll be provided with.
I'm sorry. Does Tirmidhi claim to be referencing the Quran?
Where does he say that?
And translations of hurin into virgins is a western fancy.
All the Arabic translations I have read follow these translations:
In Islam, the ḥūr or ḥūrīyah (Arabic: حورية) are described as "(splendid)[1] companions of equal age (well-matched)[2]", "lovely eyed"[3], of "modest gaze"[4], "voluptuous",[5] "pure beings" or "companions pure" of paradise, denoting humans and jinns who enter paradise after being recreated anew in the hereafter.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri
But hey, who ever gets the meaning of Islamic terms from Muslims?
As for Hadith, check isnad.
Regarding the above statement, Hafiz Salahuddin Yusuf has said: "The narration, which claims that everyone would have seventy-two wives has a weak chain of narrators.
Also, I'd like to know which verse in the Qur'an has a provision for indeterminate numbers of virgins.
Chapter and verse please.
Where does he say that?
And translations of hurin into virgins is a western fancy.
All the Arabic translations I have read follow these translations:
In Islam, the ḥūr or ḥūrīyah (Arabic: حورية) are described as "(splendid)[1] companions of equal age (well-matched)[2]", "lovely eyed"[3], of "modest gaze"[4], "voluptuous",[5] "pure beings" or "companions pure" of paradise, denoting humans and jinns who enter paradise after being recreated anew in the hereafter.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri
But hey, who ever gets the meaning of Islamic terms from Muslims?
As for Hadith, check isnad.
Regarding the above statement, Hafiz Salahuddin Yusuf has said: "The narration, which claims that everyone would have seventy-two wives has a weak chain of narrators.
Also, I'd like to know which verse in the Qur'an has a provision for indeterminate numbers of virgins.
Chapter and verse please.
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Carcano
Valued Senior Member
Why didnt you provide a link to the original site for this essay...you didnt write it.
Anyway, what difference does it make whether the heavenly companions are virgins or not???
Tirmidhi was a well respected scholar and one of the first to collect the Hadiths. Tirmidhi is not referring to the Qur'an, but to specific things Muhammad (pbuh) said.
If you SAM do not follow the teachings in the Hadiths, then you would be a rare Muslim.
Uh please do not teach me Islam.
Following the Hadith is not the same as following the Quran.
The Hadith is a collection of oral traditions but was collected 100-400 years after the prophets death. Plus there is a tradition of isnad and rules for the Hadith.
According to the rules of isnad this hadith of 72 virgins has a weak chain of narrators and due to it being supported by only Tirmidhis work is a Gharib (unusual) Hadith, hence is considered weak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gharib
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Uh please do not teach me Islam.
Following the Hadith is not the same as following the Quran.
The Hadith is a collection of oral traditions but was collected 100-400 years after the prophets death. Plus there is a tradition of isnad and rules for the Hadith.
According to the rules of isnad this hadith of 72 virgins has a weak chain of narrators and due to it being supported by only Tirmidhis work is a Gharib (unusual) Hadith, hence is considered weak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gharib
How about Al-Suyuti (died 1505 AD).
He is another respected Quranic commentator. He wrote: "Each time we sleep with a houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one [ie Muslim] will marry seventy [sic] houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetizing vaginas."
Thats pretty hot SAM! A perpetual erection?
I wouldn't call her a rare Muslim.
"Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things God has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which Hadith besides this (Quran) do they believe in?"
Qur'an 7:185
"We did not leave anything out of this book."
Qur'an 6:38
You have to understand that hadiths are sometimes not very reliable. Ultimately, the choice to make a hadith authentic or not (back then) was simply if the person putting them together wanted to accept it or reject it. Bukhair collected over 300,000 hadiths, but only accepted about 2,600. Same thing with Sahih Muslim: over 300,000 hadiths collected, yet about 4,000 accepted. Don't you see a huge room for error in this? Add in the hundreds of thousands of fake hadiths that were fabricated, and there's a lot of misunderstanding. Hadiths are the works of men. The Qur'an is the message of Allah.