UFO Crash Site

[Starman]

If that's not what Starman meant, maybe a more precise definition of his beliefs would help us all.

UFO are just that Unidentified. Now this term only relates to the observer for some objects are known by some and not by others. UFO is a strongly missused word because if you claim that a UFO is an Extra Terristerail Vehicle well then that statement would require Identification. It is possible to theorize that if there is photographic evidence that the observer has and the Government is unwilling or unable to Identify the object then it could be theorized that it could be an ETV. I stress that this is a theory untill it can be proven.

So I called this object in the immage I put forth a UFO because I cannot identify the object that crashed. It could be from anywhere because I can not Identify it or its origin. That does not mean that no one can identify it it just means I can not. The people that work at the site do know what it is and can identify it.

All UFO's should be investigated and identified if possible. Once they are identified they are no longer UFO's.

I can not stress enough that UFO has nothing to do with the origin of the object it only means that the object can not be Identified.

 

[phlogistician]

if there is photographic evidence that the observer has and the Government is unwilling or unable to Identify the object then it could be theorized that it could be an ETV.

Or it could be a top secret aircraft, that the govt cannot confirm the existence of, for security reasons.

 

[Starman]

Or it could be a top secret aircraft, that the govt cannot confirm the existence of, for security reasons.

Yes this is correct. And is very likely in most UFO reports.

Some UFO reports can not be explained and very well could be ETV's this is a theory however and will remain so untill proven to be by the government coming forword with the truth or by an individual who can provide physical proof...... And that is what I am attempting to do at this top secret government site. And that is why I am trying to encorage others to investigate the site.

 

[SkinWalker]

So I called this object in the immage I put forth a UFO because I cannot identify the object that crashed.

Then wouldn't it be more accurate to use the term UTO, Unidentified Terrestrial Object?

It could be from anywhere because I can not Identify it or its origin.

Prior to identifying the origin, you would first have to establish that it is alien to the geography (i.e. not part of the natural geologic deposition).

That does not mean that no one can identify it it just means I can not. The people that work at the site do know what it is and can identify it.

It's quite possible that they identify the area as a "hill." I've yet to see anything that suggests that the region you point to in the photo is not natural topopgraphy and geology. I've looked at a lot of aerial photos and topographic maps in my lifetime and I see nothing out of the ordinary for White Sands, and I've looked at a lot of White Sands from 1:100,000 to face down in the dirt.

All UFO's should be investigated and identified if possible. Once they are identified they are no longer UFO's.

Who will do the investigation? Who will pay for it? What would justify that kind of expenditure? I'm afraid the status quo is all we'll have for the foreseeable future: UFO-ETI believers making wild claims and speculations based on little evidence (most of it spurious); skeptics countering these claims with reasoned thought, critical thinking and plausible, even if prosaic, explanations. None of it at direct cost to the taxpayer.

I can not stress enough that UFO has nothing to do with the origin of the object it only means that the object can not be Identified.

But in the case of your hill, you have yet to demonstrate that even a UTO foreign to the topography and geology exists, much less whether it was ever a UFO.

The site isn't that far from public roads... take your car out one night, let it run out of gas at that spot (take a can with you and conceal it in the brush), then hop the fence and go see. Start your odyssey at around 3:30 - 4:00 am and you should reach the site just at sun-up. If you get caught, just say you ran out of gas and saw lights of the site and wanted to use a phone. That early in the morning, nobody working a security shift will be all that alert anyway. In fact, I doubt that there is any active security in the area of the hill.

Oh... take a digital camera and a gps with you.

 

[Ophiolite]

Starman, there are several problems for me in this.

First, a further matter of definition: regardless of what the object is, I think we can all agree it is not flying now, therefore it is inappropriate to call it a UFO. UGO, ULO perhaps, but certainly not UFO.

Second, more terminology: you say

I stress that this is a theory untill it can be proven.

You are being generous in the extreme to rank this as more than a hypothesis.

Thirdly, the object that has attracted your attention has all the appearances to me of a natural landscape feature.
You ask for an in-depth photo-analysis. I cannot offer that. My experience with aerial photo interpretation is over thirty years out of date and derives from studies in cartography and geology. Rusty, and seemingly limited as it may be, I believe it is sufficient to distinguish a natural feature from an artificial, an identifiable object from an unidentifiable object.
If what you have presented was something unnatural, or puzzling, I would not hesitate to say "I do not know what this is." Despite returning to the photograph numerous times, viewing it with various contrasts and lighting, and upside down, (which is always a useful trick) it always looks like a natural feature.

I have said before - though not in these terms - cut your losses, find a new 'object' or event to investigate. This one is wasting your talent.

 

[Starman]

Then wouldn't it be more accurate to use the term UTO, Unidentified Terrestrial Object?.

It would be more accurate to call object #1 in the photo above an "unidentified Object on the Ground" and being that I can not Identify it I can not reach a conclusion as to its origins, be it terrestrial or extraterrestial. All I can do is stress the need for investigation, to identify the object.

Prior to identifying the origin, you would first have to establish that it is alien to the geography (i.e. not part of the natural geologic deposition).

I have established that the object does not conform with the geography. It is on the back side of a hill and has many roads accessing it that would indicate a level of great interest by the people who work at the site. Also there is a Rock wall complete with gard station built around the site why is this, and why in rough terrain. This would hint that it is of extreem importance I can not see why they would want to protect rocks in a small valley.

It's quite possible that they identify the area as a "hill." I've yet to see anything that suggests that the region you point to in the photo is not natural topopgraphy and geology. I've looked at a lot of aerial photos and topographic maps in my lifetime and I see nothing out of the ordinary for White Sands, and I've looked at a lot of White Sands from 1:100,000 to face down in the dirt..

Here is a photo the best I could get of the site from HWY 70. If you look carfully you can see the hill behind the antena and you can make out the road going up the front of the hill.

http://www.sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3635&stc=1

Here is just one of the many warning signs at the site.

http://www.sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3636&stc=1

Who will do the investigation? Who will pay for it? What would justify that kind of expenditure? I'm afraid the status quo is all we'll have for the foreseeable future: UFO-ETI believers making wild claims and speculations based on little evidence (most of it spurious); skeptics countering these claims with reasoned thought, critical thinking and plausible, even if prosaic, explanations. None of it at direct cost to the taxpayer..

There is alot more money looking for interesting projects than there interesting projects looking for money. This could leed to a Documentry and could create a profit that way. And believe it or not some ET believers have money and would love an adventure or challenge like this. So if any of you are out there let me know, I'm ready when you are. Who was it that said "everyone loves a mistery"

But in the case of your hill, you have yet to demonstrate that even a UTO foreign to the topography and geology exists, much less whether it was ever a UFO

Refer to immage above. I also took a stab at enhancing the immage but I am not going to say that it is at all what is actually there. Here it is if you want to see it.

http://www.sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3637&stc=1

The site isn't that far from public roads... take your car out one night, let it run out of gas at that spot (take a can with you and conceal it in the brush), then hop the fence and go see. Start your odyssey at around 3:30 - 4:00 am and you should reach the site just at sun-up. If you get caught, just say you ran out of gas and saw lights of the site and wanted to use a phone. That early in the morning, nobody working a security shift will be all that alert anyway. In fact, I doubt that there is any active security in the area of the hill.

Oh... take a digital camera and a gps with you.

I would like to try 1st to gain access by permission of the base commander. I have camped out at the site many times and have seen strange things. And if I can't get permission then I would try an ROV. If I could rase some money I would offer a reward for the photos and get someone to obtain them.
Here is two photos of the same light that I took whith my Kodak digital 4330 camera at sundown about 30 seconds apart this light apeared above the city of Saford Arizona I spoted the light when I was about 5 miles out of saford west on HWY 191. This light is exactly the same like the two lights my wife and I saw just off the ground and about 1000 feet from the HWY 70 at the site in question at WSMR.

http://www.sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3638&stc=1

http://www.sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3639&stc=1

Again the two pictures were taken only 30 seconds apart and it was performing manuvers before it disipeared.

 

[Starman]

This one is wasting your talent.

Yes I would call it a UGO.

Well I do not think I will give up just yet when [1] The location of this object is known. and [2] I have not exausted all possibilities to identify it.

Here is what one of the people related to the Roswell incedent said that they saw photos of the crash site of the disk and this is a recreation of what it looked like. I can not help but think it has many simmularities with what I have found.

http://www.sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3640&stc=1

 

[SkinWalker]

That photo of the "crashed disk" mock-up looks nothing like what might be represented in the photo of the original post.

You seem to be the only one that sees it... no offense.

By the way, if anyone is interested, the photo above comes from the alleged Russian crash site and is a mock up or model of the site as one of the alleged witnesses claims it to be.

 

[Starman]

That photo of the "crashed disk" mock-up looks nothing like what might be represented in the photo of the original post.

You seem to be the only one that sees it... no offense.
.

None taken Skinwalker.

I am not the only one that can see the structure of the immange and how it dose not go with the terrain. Maby you need glasses, No offence.

I just recived an email from Bruce Macabees and sent him the photo I am eagerly awaiting his response.

By the way, if anyone is interested, the photo above comes from the alleged Russian crash site and is a mock up or model of the site as one of the alleged witnesses claims it to be.

I do not know where you herd that discription of the model but it could be any thing it is just a model that is in the UFO musem in Roswell New Mexico. I have been there, have you Skinwalker?

Anyway it was used to explain what Moe Cox

http://www.sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3642&stc=1

saw in a documentry that aired on the Sci Fi channel in 2002 called "Roswell New Evidence" when he was given access to project Blue Book files and he opened a file marked Roswell 1947. He said he saw several photos of a crashed disk and bodies of the dead crew not from this planet. He also had an illistration drawn to show what the disk he saw looked like.

http://www.sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3643&stc=1

 

[SkinWalker]

I do not know where you herd that discription of the model but it could be any thing it is just a model that is in the UFO musem in Roswell New Mexico. I have been there, have you Skinwalker?

Ahh.... you are absolutely right. I was working off of my memory. Memories tend to organize themselves relationally and this one is no exception. I saw this photo at this link while reading an article by Michael Shermer at this link.

No, I've not been to the UFO museum at Roswell.

 

[Stryder]

A simple point I would like to make on the subject of UFO's is:

What makes you so sure that it's "an Object" and of course "Flying", since if whatever it is happens to be both of these then obviously you've identified it to a point and therefore it's no longer "Unidentified".

[simply to suggest something is an object means it has solidity, but it could just be a gas ball or trick of the light, even a retinal lense disattachment. Also Flying would suggest something that can "Fly" and if it's something thats floating, or gliding or even doing neither of those because it wasn't real it still wouldn't be classed as flying]

By all means suggest "I saw something I couldn't Identify" to suggest an Alien craft, but to suggest you've seen a "U.F.O." is seemingly absurd due to the points already specified.

 

[Starman]

A simple point I would like to make on the subject of UFO's is:

What makes you so sure that it's "an Object" and of course "Flying", since if whatever it is happens to be both of these then obviously you've identified it to a point and therefore it's no longer "Unidentified".

[simply to suggest something is an object means it has solidity, but it could just be a gas ball or trick of the light, even a retinal lense disattachment. Also Flying would suggest something that can "Fly" and if it's something thats floating, or gliding or even doing neither of those because it wasn't real it still wouldn't be classed as flying]

By all means suggest "I saw something I couldn't Identify" to suggest an Alien craft, but to suggest you've seen a "U.F.O." is seemingly absurd due to the points already specified.

If you want to be specific what I saw was a two Lights that Moved around in the Atmosphear. So I would say they were Unidentified Floating Objects. Because I did not see any wings and did not here and means of propultion I do not think they were using the atmosphere to gain lift. Is this not still a UFO? What is the source of the light that is an unknown. Why was the millitary trying to engage it with F-16's in full afterburner from the National Guard at Holloman AFB that to is unknown. All I can do is seek the answers.

 

[Starman]

No, I've not been to the UFO museum at Roswell.

If you are ever in New Mexico stop in and check it out. It has some interesting stuff.

BTW rember that 15 page document that I showed you that Stanton Freedman had that was 80% blacked out from the FOIA. Well that was not the Roswell report it was just the justification of why they were not going to release the report.

 

[sly1]

I read through a good portion of this thread and found the farther along the thread went the less and less likely anything with significance will be accomplished. I have determined that Skinwalker will never believe in Aliens or UFOs of ET origion even if he is abducted and probed every day the rest of his life because he will reguard himself as having halucinations or somthing of that nature. There is no way to prove anything to Skinwalker for he has already made up his mind. Starman may have inferiour spelling and gramar but has shown me that he has an open mind by accepting some of the refutes by Skinwalker. Starman I find your determination and gathering of information admirable but in vain if your goal was to prove anything. In the end this thread was amusing at best. Starman keep up hope and the search of the truth Im sure one day you will find it even if its not what you expect. Skinwalker......well he already knows the truth and will not be told or shown otherwise......just try to remember that true knowledge lies in realising you know nothing....

L8rZ

 

[Ophiolite]

Well, thank you sly1. Now that we've had the official interpretation of the thread I am sure we can all sleep easy in our beds tonight.

 

[sly1]

Wast trying to make it easier for you to sleep.....sry if my post accomplished nothing but I thought the pointlessness of my post fit in well with the others. Guess not

 

[Starman]

just try to remember that true knowledge lies in realising you know nothing....L8rZ

That is so true. I am working on my grammar and spelling, for it impedes my ability to communicate effectively.

If the object in the image is not what I believe it is then it will be the end of this adventure. If it is then I hope to use it as.

#1 Proof that we are not alone.

#2 The Government knows it and has not informed the people.

#3 If such a discovery is ever uncovered, the Government will have to come forward with all it knows and this knowledge can be used to better mankind, instead of developing secret military weapons.

I am not aware of the prevision in the Constitution of the United States, allowing our government not to disclose such information of monumental importance to the people. Instead of just saying they can't talk about it, they lie about it, they are not very good at lying.

This would be similar to the Government discovering Jesus had returned, then before any of the Christians see him, they take him and lock him away and proceed to tell the Christians that he was a weather balloon.

 

[sly1]

IMO the government lies and always will. Mainly because the government is composed of people, and thats what people do...LIE. Especially powerfull people. So anyone who beLIEves whatever the government says is very nieve.

 

[goofyfish]

Liar.

 

[sly1]

lol