Translation & Muslims

[Michael]

OKay, Michael, since you are quite intelligent (honestly), what do you think of the fact that the Book of Genesis has far more violence than the Qu'ran entirely?

I'm certainly not a fan of the Bible.

I agree it's full of violence and pure bullshit.

BUT there is a big difference in a story telling of how God told So and So to kill So and So and God flooded the Earth and God murdered bla bla bla and God hardened the heart of the Pharaoh who killed some people and God sent in a ghost to kill some male children in Egypt yadda yadda yadda ...

Even though there's a lot of that stuff in there it's a lot different than telling YOU that you can justify the killing of so and so for whatever reasons.... or telling you to kill so and so.

Its a huge step from telling people God kills for whatever reasons and telling people they can kill for whatever reasons.

 

[Revolvr]

OKay, Michael, since you are quite intelligent (honestly), what do you think of the fact that the Book of Genesis has far more violence than the Qu'ran entirely?

The OT has many descriptions of ancient Middle Eastern warfare. Numbers is particularly gruesome. I'm suprised Holleywood hasn't made more movies of it.

But since you asked Michael, let me quote Michael from post 156: "[The Koran] doesn't just talk about people who committed murder for God (like the Bible or Torah) it tells people to actually go out and kill other people."

He is basically right. The difference is, in the OT God helps the Jewish people in specific ancient battles. In the Qur'an, Allah does this but in addition gives general commands to strike down kufr where you find them in Jihad - provided the Muslims can rationalize that it is a defensive war. And the Qur'an makes it very easy to rationalize the need for defensive war since kufr are inherently enemies of Islam and are by nature making mischief.

 

[S.A.M.]

You mean a preemptive strike for suspected WMDs?

On atheists:

"[The infidels] say, 'It is only our life in this world, we die and we live, and naught destroys us but time!'" [Sura Mecca]

 

[S.A.M.]

The OT has many descriptions of ancient Middle Eastern warfare. Numbers is particularly gruesome. I'm suprised Holleywood hasn't made more movies of it.

But since you asked Michael, let me quote Michael from post 156: "[The Koran] doesn't just talk about people who committed murder for God (like the Bible or Torah) it tells people to actually go out and kill other people."

He is basically right. The difference is, in the OT God helps the Jewish people in specific ancient battles. In the Qur'an, Allah does this but in addition gives general commands to strike down kufr where you find them in Jihad - provided the Muslims can rationalize that it is a defensive war. And the Qur'an makes it very easy to rationalize the need for defensive war since kufr are inherently enemies of Islam and are by nature making mischief.

You mean like this?

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5

Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10

Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17

Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8

Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22

Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19

The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 1:7

Anyone who doesn’t share Paul’s beliefs has “an evil heart.” Hebrews 3:12

False Jews are members of “the synagogue of Satan.” Revelations 2:9, 3:9

Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10

A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33



Its easy enough to selectively cut ans paste anything to prove a point.

 

[Michael]

You mean a preemptive strike for suspected WMDs?

Exactly and wrong for the exact same reasons. (at least on that topic we seem to consistently agree).

On atheists:

"[The infidels] say, 'It is only our life in this world, we die and we live, and naught destroys us but time!'" [Sura Mecca]

I'd agree EXCEPT I'd make sure the person understands by "we" I mean not just "we" atheists for Allah but also you Atheists for Zeus as well!!!

We are actually both Atheists for many a God!


(Again, I feel the passage could be better written).

 

[Michael]

You mean like this?

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5

Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10

Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17

Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8

Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22

Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19

The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 1:7

Anyone who doesn’t share Paul’s beliefs has “an evil heart.” Hebrews 3:12

False Jews are members of “the synagogue of Satan.” Revelations 2:9, 3:9

Everyone will have to worship Jesus -- whether they want to or not. Philippians 2:10

A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33



Its easy enough to selectively cut ans paste anything to prove a point.

I think the point is proven and I totally agree here. The Bible is equally as violent and equally justifies violence in the name of beleif.

Monotheism at it's worse,
Michael

 

[S.A.M.]

Exactly and wrong for the exact same reasons. (at least on that topic we seem to consistently agree).

I'd agree EXCEPT I'd make sure the person understands by "we" I mean not just "we" atheists for Allah but also you Atheists for Zeus as well!!!

We are actually both Atheists for many a God!


(Again, I feel the passage could be better written).

I think we've been through the Zeus thing already. I do hope I don't have to keep on repeating the same arguments over and over?

By the way, are you ashamed to call yourself an atheist?

 

[S.A.M.]

I think the point is proven and I totally agree here. The Bible is equally as violent and equally justifies violence in the name of beleif.

Monotheism at it's worse,
Michael

And I disagree. Context is everything. I doubt if you had a close friend and found out not only that he had betrayed you, but had done so using your trust, you would be oh so holier than thou about it. You can't even tolerate an alternate viewpoint which indicates how deeply conservative your viewpoint really is.

All your views to me appear rooted in fantasy, not reality.

 

[Michael]

All your views to me appear rooted in fantasy, not reality.

We are talking about invisible unknowable Gods correct?


I would tell anyone who asked I'm atheist (not an Atheist) and the fact is for most Gods, you are too.


How is this taken out of context?

20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?"

22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

 

[Revolvr]

So S.A.M. if Islam is a religion of peace, why are Muslims killing people every day in the name of Allah. Have they interpreted it wrong?

 

[S.A.M.]

We are talking about invisible unknowable Gods correct?


I would tell anyone who asked I'm atheist (not an Atheist) and the fact is for most Gods, you are too..

So if someone were to say: O atheist! You would be deeply offended?

How is this taken out of context?

20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."

21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?"

22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him

How is 3 lines from somewhere context? What is the original?

Why do you read scriptures by lines? What is this method of reading?

 

[S.A.M.]

So S.A.M. if Islam is a religion of peace, why are Muslims killing people every day in the name of Allah. Have they interpreted it wrong?

Same reasons Christians are killing for God and Jews are killing for Yhwh.

 

[Michael]

Revolvr

SAM made the point, weather she sticks by it or not, that Xianity is literally coated in violent commands from God to kill kill and kill some more (actually it's kind of funny God talking in the first person like that, Auugg someone get a pen, GOD'S telling me something about killing again....).

Michael

 

[Michael]

So if someone were to say: O atheist! You would be deeply offended?

If the person is telling the World kill all Atheists and I'm in a room with a bunch of people nodding "yes my master" - yeah, I might be a bit offended!


I simply stated the verse was poorly written. It was an attempt at sounding humanistic but not an honest attempt at being humanistic. You did see the rewrite?

 

[Revolvr]

You mean like this?


Its easy enough to selectively cut ans paste anything to prove a point.

SAM, I have tried to take concepts developed over a number of verses. Yet you refuse to help me understand what they mean. Why is that?

 

[Michael]

It all depends on the version Maybe the NIV is written for modernity?


15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. 16 “This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.’ 17 “The LORD said to me, ‘They have spoken well. 18 ‘I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19 ‘It shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him. 20 ‘But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 “You may say in your heart, ‘How will we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’ 22 “When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

 

[S.A.M.]

SAM, I have tried to take concepts developed over a number of verses. Yet you refuse to help me understand what they mean. Why is that?

Don't be silly, I'm not going to waste my time on you.

 

[S.A.M.]

It all depends on the version Maybe the NIV is written for modernity?
*lots of blue*

I am not going to go blind here Michael, if you cannot communicate in balck and white.

 

[S.A.M.]

If the person is telling the World kill all Atheists and I'm in a room with a bunch of people nodding "yes my master" - yeah, I might be a bit offended!


I simply stated the verse was poorly written. It was an attempt at sounding humanistic but not an honest attempt at being humanistic. You did see the rewrite?

Hmm so if the verse had said instead:

"Mind not the atheists for they are delusional fools, who lack faith, pity them instead, for God loves those who show mercy to the afflicted"

you would have felt it a more objective analysis?

 

[Revolvr]

Revolvr

SAM made the point, weather she sticks by it or not, that Xianity is literally coated in violent commands from God to kill kill and kill some more (actually it's kind of funny God talking in the first person like that, Auugg someone get a pen, GOD'S telling me something about killing again....).

Michael

Michael, any moral equivalence between Islam and Christianity doesn't stand the test of reality. There have been over 10,000 Islamic terrorist attacks since 9/11, excluding the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and excluding the genocide of some 200,000 in the Islamic wars in Sudan.

Over the same period of time, how many Christian terrorist attacks have there been? Zero.

By taking verses out of context and not even quoting them correctly, SAM does what he claims everyone else does. He correctly makes the point that these verses do not actually result in Christians killing in the name of God. Therefore taking things out of context fails. Which is correct. There is of course no Christian teaching that allows killing in the name of God or Jesus.

So either Islam is a religion of peace and millions of Muslims are wrong, or it is not a religion of peace. And after almost 200 posts we are no closer to the answer. SAM is doing her best to keep the discussion off balance by changing the subject. And it's working.

I have tried to avoid taking verses out of context, vis-a-vis 5:12 - 5:18 but get no response.