This is too rich! You should take Kadark out to the woodshed. That's exactly what he did with 5:18 when he conveniently did not consider 5:12 - 5:18.
It's the Muslims who are doing this, not the kufr!
Translation & Muslims
- Thread starter flameofanor5
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This is too rich! You should take Kadark out to the woodshed. That's exactly what he did with 5:18 when he conveniently did not consider 5:12 - 5:18.
It's the Muslims who are doing this, not the kufr!
Considering it was the Jews who broke the treaty of Hudaibiya, not at all.
Compare that to the Polish reaction to the Polish Jews when they saw them greeting Stalins army as liberators.
Do you imagine there was a general consensus in Poland at the time that not all Jews are bad?
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Yes, but being Japanese, is she pro-US?
No, you are misinterpreting what I’m saying. What I said was, “let’s look at the referral to the Jews”, not “let’s look at the referral to the People of the Book”. A rookie mistake already, I’ve noticed.
I urge you to always post the complete verse without any of your own additions or exclusions of words in order to avoid corrupting the text. Lets look at the verse wholly:
[5:12] GOD had taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we raised among them twelve patriarchs. And GOD said, "I am with you, so long as you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), give the obligatory charity (Zakat), and believe in My messengers and respect them, and continue to lend GOD a loan of righteousness. I will then remit your sins, and admit you into gardens with flowing streams. Anyone who disbelieves after this, has indeed strayed off the right path."
Basic summary: fulfill the requirements of Allah, and He will be with you.
[5:13] It was a consequence of their violating the covenant that we condemned them, and we caused their hearts to become hardened. Consequently, they took the words out of context, and disregarded some of the commandments given to them. You will continue to witness betrayal from them, excepting a few of them. You shall pardon them, and disregard them. GOD loves those who are benevolent.
I find it humorous (not in a good way, I can assure you) that you seem to cut the verse in half. Without the verse in its entirety, there is no formal objectivity, and misunderstanding will certainly follow. Here are the parts you (accidentally, I’m sure) skipped.
"You will continue to witness betrayal from them, excepting a few of them."
The corruption (as in, changing of words/interpretations) of the Torah is not the crime of all Jews. Likewise, not all Jews follow the changed scripture, which is an important aspect against generalizing.
"You shall pardon them, and disregard them. GOD loves those who are benevolent."
I think this is quite self-explanatory. Allah tells us to pardon them, and loves those who are benevolent. I suppose you didn’t find this sentence an integral tenet of the full verse. I wonder why?
[5:14] Also from those who said, "We are Christian," we took their covenant. But they disregarded some of the commandments given to them. Consequently, we condemned them to animosity and hatred among themselves, until the Day of Resurrection. GOD will then inform them of everything they had done.
There are some observations you failed to make: the Christians who are responsible for the disregarding of the scriptures are responsible. The Christians who followed that blindly accepted the altered verses also face a certain blame, but not the same degree, as common intuition would indicate. The perpetrators will be informed on the Day of Resurrection, and those who do their research will be rewarded. The matter is not as simple as just reading the scripture.
[5:15] O people of the scripture, our messenger has come to you to proclaim for you many things you have concealed in the scripture, and to pardon many other transgressions you have committed. A beacon has come to you from GOD, and a profound scripture.
What do you think Muhammad’s purpose as messenger was? He was not set to introduce a new idea, but rather to restore the message of the prophets before him, whose words have been altered, ignored, or destroyed. As we can see from “and to pardon many other transgressions you have committed”, the verse is indicative of forgiveness and a second chance.
Which Christians do you refer to, then? There are plenty of Christian denominations who hold God and Jesus as two separately functioning entities; some religious interpretations claim both are one; others believe in a trinity. Considering there are many different Christian ideologies, grouping them into one religion is not practical, and is unfair for the sake of argument.
Muhammad has no relevance to this verse, I’m afraid. God does not have children, which basically means that nobody is immune from punishment because they claim to be God’s “chosen ones”. All actions and the subsequent consequences are the responsibility of each person. This is not limited exclusively to religious followers.
Palpably incorrect. Both religion’s followers have deviated from the path set by God, which is why a final attempt to correct their mistakes has been established, through the proposition of a second chance. It is up to each individual to make the decision of acceptance.
I was quoting the verses that directly used the word “Jews”, mainly because of the opening topic and subsequent posts concerning particularly the Judaic religion.
The devout Jews who follow believe in Allah, his scriptures, and his messengers are all destined to be rewarded in the hereafter. Those who corrupt the religion’s teachings to implement their own ideologies, be it political or religious, will incur a grievous penalty. The matter isn’t as simple as, “you’re a Christian, so you automatically are destined to …”. After all, only Allah truly knows who is deserving of what in the hereafter.
She wouldn't know what pro-US even means. I don't think she even knows there's a war going on - of if so where at or why or who is involved. She did once ask me why America has a stupid president so she isn't completely out of the loop! BUT I think that was because she likes to watch David Letteman and his "Famous Speeches" skit
I love that one
Great Moments In Presidential Speeches
She wouldn't know what pro-US even means. I don't think she even knows there's a war going on - of if so where at or why or who is involved. She did once ask me why America has a stupid president so she isn't completely out of the loop! BUT I think that was because she likes to watch David Letteman and his "Famous Speeches" skit
I love that one
Great Moments In Presidential Speeches
Is your friend, by any chance, imaginary?
Hi Kadark,
I have a question. Just your opinion. Suppose someone like me knows quite well about God. But I tell God to go get stuffed I go my way you go yours - what do you suppose, from what you have read, will happen to me in the hereafter?
Another question, we know there are a lot of Buddhists, Shinto, Hindus out there that have heard about Islam and get the message of the One God and Mohammad etc.. etc... as many of them have similarly disregarded Mohammad's message and continue to practice their own beleif - what do you suppose happens to them in the hereafter?
Lastly, I always find it interesting that supposedly the message is "spectacular" yet most Muslims I know regard Mohammad in the same manner as Xians regard Jesus or Catholics Mary. Even praying to Mohammad instead of God at times. Why do you suppose Humans act like this. Don't you find it interesting? In reality, if we were to be honest, Mohammad could have been a talking broom. I mean - it was the message that was important right?
I have a question. Just your opinion. Suppose someone like me knows quite well about God. But I tell God to go get stuffed I go my way you go yours - what do you suppose, from what you have read, will happen to me in the hereafter?
Another question, we know there are a lot of Buddhists, Shinto, Hindus out there that have heard about Islam and get the message of the One God and Mohammad etc.. etc... as many of them have similarly disregarded Mohammad's message and continue to practice their own beleif - what do you suppose happens to them in the hereafter?
Lastly, I always find it interesting that supposedly the message is "spectacular" yet most Muslims I know regard Mohammad in the same manner as Xians regard Jesus or Catholics Mary. Even praying to Mohammad instead of God at times. Why do you suppose Humans act like this. Don't you find it interesting? In reality, if we were to be honest, Mohammad could have been a talking broom. I mean - it was the message that was important right?
Lots of Japanese really really couldn't care about the Middle East and America. Their History is more China and Amercia. And they simply just don't know or care to know anything about Muslims. It's really not a part of their culture at all.
OK I asked TWO Japanese.
The girl, Emi, said it didn`t make sense and had no interest. So she said nothing. (actually she asked: Is this a Test?!? and said "this makes no sense" - so like I said she just didnt care to give me an answer)
The guy, Toshi, actually likes history. He said this was just like Christian but more extreme (note: wiki say sura 9 is the most extreme so I am sure that if we were to pick a violent part of armagedon it`d be the sam). Bascially because I made it open ended question: Read this what do you think Toshi just tried to explain that we don`t live in 10th century Europe or Middle East and we now have medicine and tv and computers and don`t need this "brain washing stuff to get information".
So in summary Sura9 was just like Christian stuff but more extreme. He said he thought Chrisitian usually talked about myth stories of killing but this passage (as translated) said "to kill". But really he still thought they were pretty much the same. And so I guess that`s my summary.
MII
PS: I always say the two are like green peas in a pod.
The girl, Emi, said it didn`t make sense and had no interest. So she said nothing. (actually she asked: Is this a Test?!? and said "this makes no sense" - so like I said she just didnt care to give me an answer)
The guy, Toshi, actually likes history. He said this was just like Christian but more extreme (note: wiki say sura 9 is the most extreme so I am sure that if we were to pick a violent part of armagedon it`d be the sam). Bascially because I made it open ended question: Read this what do you think Toshi just tried to explain that we don`t live in 10th century Europe or Middle East and we now have medicine and tv and computers and don`t need this "brain washing stuff to get information".
So in summary Sura9 was just like Christian stuff but more extreme. He said he thought Chrisitian usually talked about myth stories of killing but this passage (as translated) said "to kill". But really he still thought they were pretty much the same. And so I guess that`s my summary.
MII
PS: I always say the two are like green peas in a pod.
So did you show them the sura on disbelievers (109)? I'd like their take on that. And yours as well. Lets see how objective you can be.
Also what do these two Japanese think of the Samurai and the Bushido creed?
Do the consider it a medieval backward or tribal practice?
Also what do these two Japanese think of the Samurai and the Bushido creed?
Do the consider it a medieval backward or tribal practice?
I was wondering if you would criticize me on this, but then I thought, no, Kadark is too sharp to play such a silly semantic game.
OK so if we were to summarize v5:12=5:18 would it go something like this:
The Jews had a covenant with God. But they breached their covenant, at least some percentage of them. In doing so they "changed the words" of the Torah (corrupted it). Those who did so are cursed.
The Christians also had a covenant, but they forgot it, at least some percentage of them. So those that did are estranged, with enmity and hatred.
So Allah says there is a new messenger now who Christians and Jews should follow. The new messenger reveals what has been lost (or removed) from their old covenant.
The Christians likewise are blasphemous by believing in the divinity of Christ, and not following this new messenger. Those Christians who missed this boat are going to be punished too.
In the end-of-times those Jews who follow this new messenger will be rewarded, those who do not will be slaughtered.
Is that a fair, but brief summary?
I do believe I posted the requirements earlier: do you believe in God fully, and accept Him as your master? Do you believe in the scriptures He has sent to guide mankind? Do you believe in His angels? Do you believe in His messengers? You cannot simply acknowledge a God but reject Him with contempt.
I don't know the specific belief systems, moral codes, and mono/polytheist values of their ideologies. Refer to Surah 2, verse 285. Do you meet those standards?
I honestly don't know of any Muslims who pray to Muhammad in place of Allah. Praying to any human (even if they are a Prophet) is one of the gravest sins in Islam. Only Allah is worthy of worship.
"[I testify that] there is none worthy of worship except God, and [I testify that] Muhammad is the messenger of God."
I'll take a look.
Toshi said that back then Japanese people didn't really care too much about religion (except in 640s there was a war between Buddhist and Shinto - Buddhists won and so Buddhism was incorporated into the Japanese government). As to Samurai all he said was they didn't care either so long as what ever religion didn't have any power. Samurai killed many Buddhists when they had started to gain power (and become a country within a country) and also they killed a bunch of Christians when they did the same. Because Buddhism and Shinto were common beliefs at the time of Japanese unification, as long as they didn't try for power, Samurai didn't seem to care.
As for their ethic and moral code - I'll ask him next time.
Kardark could you imagine if you saw all these people praying to a lizard statue "King Crom of Planet Perses Omicron 8" :bugeye:
Accept an imaginary idea as one's Master? It's as ludicrous as praying to King Crom.
It's amazing you'd even consider putting a mere piss-ant mortal in the same sentence with God creator of Reality itself?!?!
Puuuulease...
And I noticed you put "the" messenger - even lifting him above any other messengers.
I think you can see by you're own statement how Mohammad is elevated to this rock-God status. Basically every good myth needs a man at the center of it and Islam makes no exception.
I saw a woman on the news the other day shouting out to Mohammad to curse these suicide bombers. In times of desperation the true feeling come out.
It's only human,
Michael
So you pose to me questions that seem sincere, and upon receiving answers you cannot counter, you simply insult the religion? It's small wonder why people don't take you seriously. If you cannot comprehend/acknowledge the difference between Allah and Muhammad, then I truly feel sorry for you - and for myself - for having wasted such valuable time.
Don't feel singled out Kadark. Michael denigrates all faiths equally.
Kadark - your response is: I really really really really do beleive in God and I really really really do believe that Mohammad was special to this God.
There is no argument - yes I agree you really do beleive that's the case. But, that being the case I wonder what you would think if you saw a lot of people that really really really did beleive in Lrrr of the Planet Omicron Persei 8? Because you may not know it, and you may not beleive it, but there as much evidence for Lrrr as there is that Mohammad was a Prophet to a God - which is to say ZERO, ZILCH, NADDA.
So what to do?
Well we could go in circles...
Or.... one would expect that if there was a really God and a real messenger - that the message would be special. But it's not special to anyone that is not Muslim. Unlike Plato or Aristotle or Kent, whose ideas and wittings are indeed revered by people from secular modern day Chinese to Muslims living in Malaysia, the Qur'an simply doens't have that appeal. Ask you're self Why Kadark?
Why is it that the most perfect book ever is not appreciated by the majority of people - outside of Islam. And honestly, if it's perfect then why Kadark, do Muslims that become Atheist think it's not worth the paper it's written on? Why? It seems even an atheist, if logical, WILL HAVE TO agree to the tenets if the arguments are well made. One could only imagine a Book with GOD as the author would match Aristotle - but it doesn't.
Why is what you should ask yourself?
I asked those Japaneses (well it may as well have just been Toshi). And from his reading of this translation the Sura9 passage instructed people to commit murder. It doesn't just talk about people who committed murder for God (like the Bible or Torah) it tells people to actually go out and kill other people. This is what he called "extreme version of Bible". This was his reading, I didn't do anything other than ask him to read it and tell me what it says.
So sure Kadark you may really really really really really beleive in God but that doesn't change the fact that people are killing other people because they really really really think the Qur'an is telling them to really really really go kill people for NOT really really really believing the Qur'an.
Again for thr sake of a circle:
Academically Communism works great.
Practically Communism is an utter failure.
Who is to blame - the system or the people?
You opt for people - well fine, I can't logically argue with your opinion as it's just that - an opinion.
Logically which is more perfect a Book that inspires all that read it to adhere to peace or a Book that inspires some people to commit murder in it's name? Which? Assuming God can make both books: Which is more perfect? Of course you'll pick the latter, but one would think the former would be more Perfect - that is if you like the idea of peace. So where do we go? back to - opt for blaming the people - they misinterpret. Well fine, I can't logically argue with an opinion as it's just that - an opinion. Funny that the Japanese guy got that EXACT SAME misinterpretation? Don't you agree.
We demonstrated that art and math and science slows, stagnates and eventually comes to a grinding halt under any religious theocracy. Including Xiantiy including Islam including Buddhism etc... but no no no Michael, Islam is "perfect" ergo it's the people's fault again. Or better yet, who needs some art?!?!??! CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT LAST STATEMENT??? Whio needs so art?
Jesus - why don't we just go back to the trees, grab a banana and give up on this whole large brain walking upright thing. It didn't work!
So yes Kadark I am sincere, but we've been over this ground and I don't think there's anything left so ALL we're left with is Lrrr of the Planet Omicron Persei 8
I wouldn't say "denigrates" - how about "treats objectively"?