Translation & Muslims

S.A.M. said:
So did you show them the sura on disbelievers (109)? I'd like their take on that. And yours as well. Lets see how objective you can be.

Also what do these two Japanese think of the Samurai and the Bushido creed?

Do the consider it a medieval backward or tribal practice?
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OK I talked to Toshi.

As I said to Kadark that I would, I started out by saying something along the lines of: Toshi, remember that passage I asked you to read. Well, it may have sounded extreme but really reading a couple lines out of context isn't going to give you the big picture. You'd really need to read the whole book or a large portion of it to get the fuller picture. So you shouldn't base your opinion on just those couple of paragraphs.

He agree.

Then I asked him: So what do you think of the Samurai and Bushido.

Reply:

Toshi: "Michael, why do you ask me such stupid questions. I know that I am not going to understand the conteext of the few lines you asked me to read and you are not going to understand what Bushido unless you take your own advice and stop asking stupid questions and read the whole book. So why don't you take you own advice huh?"

Michael *opens mouth*

Toshi: *interrupts me* "Huh?"

Michael *opens mouth*

Toshi: *interrupts me* "Huh?"

Michael " come on just tell me a summary"

Toshi: Just shut up and read a book! Stop asking me to do stupid reading and asking stupid questions always ...... :mad:" To ask me "What is Bushido" is like me asking "Tell me all about the West" - it's too general and a stupid question.



(note: This is the exact reason why these forums are popular :p


Anyway, so, that was kind of a waste of time. BUT, as you know it's impossible for me to "shut up" - I did try to get some information :D


Samurai were very very different depending on which era you are talking about. I have read about the unification of Japan and so I know a little about Nobunaga, Hideyoshi and Ieyasu. That was pre-Tokugawa and so they didn't have any sort of "Bushido" philosophy per say. For about 300 years under Tokugawa the general educational level for most Japanese was greatly lifted and it was during this time that Bushido was developed. However, what was it? Hard to say as Toshi didn't really say anything other than get a book and ask me a specific question I am not going to teach you about Bushido. But it seems Samurai are similar to knights, some good, some bad and each person developed it for themselves.


Bushido: The Soul of Japan
 
Lastly, on post, while I may have taken Sura9 out of context and perhaps it's meaning was not fully appreciated. It did translate in Japanese as telling the reader to go out and "kill non-believers".

That was a direct translation.

To counter this with Sura109 has some problems. Sura109 starts by delineating US from Them "Say O unbelievers...".

It isn't a matter of "am I proud to be atheist" - that's totally besides the point. Why the US versus THEM attitude?

Sura109 doesn't do anything to convince me that the main message in the Qur'an is one of peace for all of humanity. Definitely not in regards to any other people who don't beleive as the author does. They are singled out as "unbelievers". "Unbeliever" is the Qur'an's nice way of saying "someone who is wrong". As if the truth is self evident to the reader and the "unbeliever" is simply and idiot and too blind and stupid to see it. Sura109 is a poor attempt at bringing humanity together. So much so that I have concluded that either the author is an idiot or that isn't the author's real intention.

Which is it? Author idiocy or duplicity?

In my mind pluralistic society has surpassed this us versus them primitive stage in social development.
 
Michael: Judging by your reply to my post, it seems that you're (at this point) simply saying the same things over and over again. Is atheism better suited for you and your friends? Great. Don't hesitate to pursue that path, my friend. If you know that Islam is a falsehood, then you have nothing to worry about. If you are genuinely concerned as to how Islam treats atheists and won't accept a negative answer, then perhaps you are insecure about your lack of faith. In that case, I'm not the man to talk to.

PS: Kadark you're a nice person, don't take my literary attack as a personal attack. I seriously have nothing against you or SAM or anyone. And while I don't like monotheism I don't single Islam out as any worse than Christianity
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No problem. I wouldn't respond to you if I thought you were personally attacking me.
 
What we need Kadark is a very very specific question that can be debated. The reason why what I type is repetitive is because this is where we are stuck. While I am happy to try a different angle it's still boils to the same thing.

Anyway I think we agree with one another on many topics IF we are to take a cold hard logical look at them.

For example. here are four topics we have discussed time and again:

  1. Do you agree with me that there is NO evidence for any Gods or Goddesses?
  2. Do you agree with me that we do NOT know the exact day the Qur'an was written?
  3. Do you agree with me that we do NOT know all of the names of the authors AND which parts were written down by whom in the Qur'an?
  4. Do you agree with me that the oldest Qur'an are NOT identical to modern day Qur'an?
 
Oh, just out of curiosity, you do agree that atheism has been good for many ex-Muslims?


I personally know many ex-Muslims that said they never truely felt "happy" until they became atheistic towards Islam.
 
I answered your question. If you or your friends are pleased with atheism, then go ahead and pursue that particular path. There is no gun to your head, Michael.

If you're an atheist, you should have no worries about what the Islamic perspective is of atheists in the hereafter.
 
Kadark said:
I answered your question. If you or your friends are pleased with atheism, then go ahead and pursue that particular path. There is no gun to your head, Michael.

If you're an atheist, you should have no worries about what the Islamic perspective is of atheists in the hereafter.
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Perhaps he is concerned about the Islamic perspective of atheists in the now?
 
Kadark said:
I answered your question. If you or your friends are pleased with atheism, then go ahead and pursue that particular path. There is no gun to your head, Michael.

If you're an atheist, you should have no worries about what the Islamic perspective is of atheists in the hereafter.
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Let me make sure I am getting you right.

You agree that yes, for some people, atheism is better than Islam?


Also, is you answer YES for questions 1-4.

(I'm simply trying to be clear here. That way less going in circles and less me re-stating the same question)
 
I think Islam is the best choice for every person. I also think that not every person will accept it, for a number of reasons. If you don't want to, then it's your choice. If you do, then that's your choice as well.
 
This is where I seem to think we are going into a circle.

To me it doesn't make sense to say "Islam is the best choice for every person" and set about explaining why it isn't. Obviously if by "best choice" we mean "are happy living with this ideology" then we MUST both agree that no Islam is not the best choice for everyone.

What makes more sense is to say:
Islam is the best choice for Kadark but not the best choice for everyone in the world because not every person in the world is happy to accept it - for what ever reasons.

Do you agree to this?


As I personally know ex-Muslims: Some are now Buddhist, some are now Xian and some are now atheists I'd say Islam is obviously not the best choice for some people.

Also Q 1-4 you agree to YES for each question?
 
To me it doesn't make sense to say "Islam is the best choice for every person" and set about explaining why it isn't. Obviously if by "best choice" we mean "are happy living with this ideology" then we MUST both agree that no Islam is not the best choice for everyone.
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I seriously don't know what the problem is. Either you accept the religion, or you don't. No need to overcomplicate something so simple.

What makes more sense is to say:
Islam is the best choice for Kadark but not the best choice for everyone in the world because not every person in the world is happy to accept it - for what ever reasons.
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I wouldn't say that I'm the only person happy with Islam. Add over a billion people, and we'll get somewhere.

As I personally know ex-Muslims: Some are now Buddhist, some are now Xian and some are now atheists I'd say Islam is obviously not the best choice for some people.
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Good.

For.

Them.

Also Q 1-4 you agree to YES for each question?
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Obviously not. What an obnoxious question. Anyway, I'm off to catch a little shuteye.
 
Kadark said:
I seriously don't know what the problem is. Either you accept the religion, or you don't. No need to overcomplicate something so simple.
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You are answering a different question. This one: Do all people accept Islam? Then the answer is no, not all people accept Islam.

My question was: Do you agree that Islam is the not the best choice of beleif for everyone in the world for what ever reasons.


To this you seem to be saying no.

Why?

I'm atheist but I accept that atheism isn't the best choice of beleif for all people. Probably some people would be much happier as a Muslim or Scientologist. I've definitely heard many Buddhists say Buddhism isn't the best choice for everyone. At stake here is accepting the notion that there is no one way for everyone. This is why I complained about Sura109 and both why its plain to see how both Sura109 and Sura9 are so derogatory towards "unbelievers". It's this exact sort of intolerance that causes all wars. From those that are started by atheists (like the Cultural Revolution) to those started by Catholic against the Muslims in Spain.


While you may not agree, THIS is yet one of many reasons why the Qur'an can not be written by a God OR that God is a petty pin-dick.

It's like this: What is something enlightening in the Qur'an. Well, I read it and came to the conclusion that anyone who doesn't beleive as me is wrong. "an unbeliever" OH and my God is going to make them pay Hell for not thinking like me.

Yeah... so deep man.

I don't know if one could take any more water out of such a shallow pool!

NOW do you see my point?


Also, surely you agree to this Kadark?

Michael
 
I think if people learned Islam from a teacher than from hate sites, a lot more people would find it agrees with them. I have known many agnostics and atheists who have converted to Islam because they were personally dissatisfied with their atheism and found, on a study of the religion, that it made sense to them.

One example, because I know he won't mind me outing him as an ex-agnostic atheist, he's a sweetheart :D
http://www.mikeghouse.net/
 
Kadark said:
Obviously not. What an obnoxious question. Anyway, I'm off to catch a little shuteye.
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This is why I continue to ask these questions. They are so utterly straightforward yet you still seem to think there could be any other answer than YES for each question.

See here:

There is no evidence for God. This is a fact. If you disagree then provide the evidence.

We already agreed that no one knows who the nor each person who wrote the Qur'an. This is also a fact. If you disagree then provide the names and the date.

I can post script of the oldest Qur'an and where it doesn't match with modern Qur'an. Many Muslim experts study this sort of thing. If you want me to post to excepts I'd be happy to do so.

Michael
 
S.A.M. said:
I think if people learned Islam from a teacher than from hate sites, a lot more people would find it agrees with them. I have known many agnostics and atheists who have converted to Islam because they were personally dissatisfied with their atheism and found, on a study of the religion, that it made sense to them.

One example, because I know he won't mind me outing him as an ex-agnostic atheist, he's a sweetheart :D
http://www.mikeghouse.net/
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You know, if he is happier being Muslim than atheist then I think that's great.

It may seem like I am battling against your beleif. But really that isn't the case. I'm not out trying to convert people to atheism. But this is a debate forum and I try to do exactly that.

I wonder SAM do you think it great when a Muslim loses faith in Islam and God but gain happiness and content? Which is more important?

Michael
 
I remember after a long debate with DiamondHearts they asked: THEN what beleif do you think people should have for a belief?

I said anything.
 
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Michael said:
I wonder SAM do you think it great when a Muslim loses faith in Islam and God but gain happiness and content? Which is more important?

Michael
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I would say that person has a lot of other issues besides religion. What I do see is that such people think they should re-educate other people, ie promote their beliefs. Its funny actually.
 
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