Tornadoe's and Zero Point Theory

As an example of surface thermal imaging a tornado path. the imaging has to get deeper to reveal anything and i am not sure we have the technology to do it.

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What we would be looking for could be possibly refered to as a localised and "moving" Lagrangian point that would be sub-terrainian in strong tornadoes and possibly atmospheric [above ground] in weaker ones.
The Lagrangian point is in effect the zero point or null point with in all the culminant gravitational forces involved however in this case at a "Micro" level
any ways this would most likely be one of the predictions of Zero Point Theory once it is formalised.
 
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Originally Posted by origin
What are the masses that result in the COG?

hmmm.... one could start with atmospheric masses which are low denisity compared to land mass... How or why the land mass denisty would change could be and most likely would be temperature orientated both from undergroudn thermal activity and above ground. Possibly thermal satelite imaging of the land mass may show some sort of co-relation when relating the advent of tornadoes and and rapid fluctuations in local land mass density. Something that possiby a specialist would consider and maybe discard...

So you have no clue - just making up goofy shit. The idea that there could be some COG moving through the earth at multiple locations at the same time is an astoudingly stupid idea. This whole idea does not really rate as pseudo-science it is more like retardo-science.
 
maybe the poster you are looking for will come along one day and actually provide you with the intellectual challenge that you want
I get plenty of intellectual challenges at work thanks, where I deal with other mathematicians and physicists doing useful practical science.

But you're misrepresenting me (again!). I'm not saying "You're talking nonsense, are you trolling?" because I feel you don't provide me with an intellectual challenge (though, as it happens, you don't) but rather than you're talking nonsense. When someone is being so nonsensical they appear to be detaching from reality yet think they are saying something interesting and scientific then whether they be smarter than me or dumber than me, more informed than me, less informed than me, saying "You're talking nonsense" is a valid statement to make.

You keep trying to imply my rejection of your ideas and the ideas of other people in this sub-forum are something to do with ego. That I fear you might be onto something. It isn't. I long ago had any delusions of grandeur burnt out of me by the trial by fire which is university. I have no problem saying most of the friends I had doing the same course as me were better than me at it. Then at PhD level I was a pretty unremarkable string theorist on the scale of things (though it's a pretty high scale). Am I bitter about it? No, I can still make contributions to science which most people couldn't ever even understand. Am I scared that some of the science I learnt or perhaps even did might be wrong? No because I know some of the science I've learnt will one day be replaced by something more fundamental. That doesn't mean I can't put the current models to good use. I know Newtonian mechanics is wrong on just about everything when you get down to the accurate details but it's still useful to know if you're wanting to build a bridge or put a man on the Moon.

I know you want the reason everyone with an ounce of science education rejects your work to be down to some psychological issues they have but the fact of the matter is your ideas are laughably bad. By an objective scientific standard your work fails to be anything remotely scientific. You fail to present any justification for your claims. You make assertions about area of maths or physics you have no experience of, either theoretically or practically. You ignore when you have mistakes explained to you. You have no grasp of the scientific method and you don't bother to find out anything of any detail about something before you make claims about it. All of those things can be seen on an objective evaluation of the various threads you've been making recently, it isn't me throwing stones out of some fear.

The only place you could make some non-pathetic case for ego coming into it is how I'm one of the more vocal people for denouncing hacks and even there ego isn't the reason. Out of such people on this forum I'm also the one who will spend the most time going through claims line by line and explaining the cacophony of mistakes, misconceptions and misrepresentations a hack has made. I don't do it to somehow validate myself. Even if I were in need of some existential justification you'd not provide it. Pointing out various people here are hacks and have many mistakes etc in their understanding/reasoning is easy. I don't think before I compose posts, I just rattle them off, demonstrations and explanations of your various mistakes being immediately obvious. If I wanted to get ego kicks from knocking someone down I'd pick someone who was a challenge, someone I'd need to put effort into. In a race you don't feel pride by running faster than the fat disabled kid, you feel pride when you out run someone fast. Guess which one you are in that analogy. But that's assuming I needed to knock people down to convince myself I'm worth something as a scientist. I get that in my job. I get it by doing actual science.

Maybe one day you'll come out of whatever rose tinted backside you have your head up and you'll learn some proper science and put some proper effort in. On that day you'll realise just how insignificant hack claims are to someone who can actually do science. The reason I explain to people like you the mistakes you make is because you present yourself as someone with understanding and like to think you've got something viable to say about science. By illustrating how effortlessly someone with some understanding can blow you out of the water others can see that 1. they shouldn't give your claims the time of say and 2. putting in the time and effort to learn science provides someone with a wide range of knowledge and abilities. Demonstrable knowledge and abilities.

But I'm sure I've taken up enough of your time with this post. No doubt you have to get back to your 'science' of tornadoes and zero point theory. Got any other ideas? Maybe cosmic rays cause zero point energy at the centre of the Earth to undergo infinite recursion and promote a paradox in the ionosphere, causing muon decays to induce tornadoes. :rolleyes:
 
Originally Posted by origin
What are the masses that result in the COG?



So you have no clue - just making up goofy shit. The idea that there could be some COG moving through the earth at multiple locations at the same time is an astoudingly stupid idea. This whole idea does not really rate as pseudo-science it is more like retardo-science.
Sounds like you need to read up a bit on multiple Lagrangian points and then realise that there is NO "system" size limitation as to how that well accepted idea can be applied. Or are you claiming that most of science is retardo-science?
You have a problem with "logical extension" or inductive reasoning and your posting history shows this.
 
It isn't at all strange that you can't see it
You really want to play that game? Hands up whose a professional scientist....... Oh, just me. Hands up whose work passes peer review..... Oh, just me again. Hands up who could pass an undergraduate exam on maths or physics..... Wow, just me again.
the above quote by your hand is going to be infamous one day and your subsequent writing about ego centric denial will also.
It is amazing to most laypersons, how in virtually one sentance a person can express extreme egoism and yet deny it simultaneoulsy. Yet if you are a student in the field it is more saddening than amazing.

The first thing about the above post is that you expect others to take your word for it. That you are indeed a published physicsts, that you are indeed a professional scientist.
This is in itself an astounding claim that has no evidence shown to support it and the most amazing thing is that you expect others to actually take your word for it.

Hey I am the president of the USA! Look at me!

Your claim to fame is no more validated than "Goofy_made_it" 's claim to being a movie star.

So until you can provide professional details that can be verified "independantly" your claims of being a professional physicist are no more that just that.
A linkden link would be handy other wise I am sure you must belong to some professional body or organisation that can verify your claimed credientials that, if you were genuine would be eager to share with the board. [ Or are you afraid of "peer" review ]

more to come later..
 
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The issues expressed in this thread and all the "new" applications of "old" ideas can be quickly resolved with some proper discussion about the topic....ego violence and inuendo will never resolve anything.
  • I have shown a number of images in the OP that indicate a logical extension of the nature of "funnels" and vortexes"
  • I have offered a potential solution to a way of understanding their structure and formation beyond currnely recognised understandings.
  • I have also suggested that there is a strong relationship between "strength" [ not size] and depth of what appears to be that logical extension regarding tornadoes.
  • I have shown images that tentatively support my case.


care to discuss?
 
The issues expressed in this thread and all the "new" applications of "old" ideas can be quickly resolved with some proper discussion about the topic....ego violence and inuendo will never resolve anything.
  • I have shown a number of images in the OP that indicate a logical extension of the nature of "funnels" and vortexes"
  • I have offered a potential solution to a way of understanding their structure and formation beyond currnely recognised understandings.
  • I have also suggested that there is a strong relationship between "strength" [ not size] and depth of what appears to be that logical extension regarding tornadoes.
  • I have shown images that tentatively support my case.


care to discuss?

Sorry it is just to inane, bye.
 
Quantum, I can see the sense in your conclusions, but they are based on a midway point between either what you have instinctively picked up or observed, and standard science, which predicts that any mass has gravity to some degree, but whether numerous masses have a central gravitational attraction, does not seem right because it would be too weak to create 300 mph winds.
But I would not venture to trash your endeavours entirely, because the mind is able to sense something before it discovers it.

The idea that the whole region in which a tornado appears, contributes to its power, is absolutely correct. Tornadoes are not caused by a circumstantial, accidental, play in the air. I believe you are trying to account for the obvious power displayed that is not answered by sandbox dwellers. I would retrace your steps before you got caught up in an ego mudslinging match, unless you want to stay here.
 
One of the clues is shown in the third picture of your first post. Notice that the tornado has formed on the edge of the cloud, and that the other clouds form a rough circle out to the left, around a more open sky? Go through many images on the net, and see if you can see this repeated. A circle of clouds and a tornado on the edge of that circle. After we'll discuss.
 
Quantum, I can see the sense in your conclusions, but they are based on a midway point between either what you have instinctively picked up or observed, and standard science, which predicts that any mass has gravity to some degree, but whether numerous masses have a central gravitational attraction, does not seem right because it would be too weak to create 300 mph winds.
But I would not venture to trash your endeavours entirely, because the mind is able to sense something before it discovers it.

The idea that the whole region in which a tornado appears, contributes to its power, is absolutely correct. Tornadoes are not caused by a circumstantial, accidental, play in the air. I believe you are trying to account for the obvious power displayed that is not answered by sandbox dwellers. I would retrace your steps before you got caught up in an ego mudslinging match, unless you want to stay here.

I appreciate your comments and recommendations.
I do not pretend to have the answer to all the questions about tornadoes and other weather formations however if one considers for a moment the power of langrangian points in any multiple body system one can state that the apparent weak force of that point could very well be the exact opposite depending on relative perspective.
For example:
How heavy is individual particles in an atmosphere?
How "fluid" is that combined mass?
How easy is it to displace or move those individual particles in that mass?

Then compare it to the ground mass and ask the same questions for a relatively "rigid" or "stable" collection of various types of mass particles. [land]

It appears to me that if a culminant COG or langrangian point should form due to land mass involved, the force upon a "fluid" and un-stable heavy air mass could prove quite profound.
It is also worth noting maybe that the altitude of the super cells involved is not that great either.

Hypothetical abstraction:

We have an unstable air mass with heavy/cold but "fluid" [non-rigid] water particles with a COG that could converge or be replaced by the ground Leval COG forcing the funnel to form as the cloud and air mass seeks to balance all the forces involved. The air system trying to become one with the ground system.
the super cell is heavy afterall and possibly it's weight is approaching a threshhold that wishes to converge with a similar heavy mass [ land ] and a funnel forms to faciliate
800px-Chaparral_Supercell_2.JPG

A super cell is characterised by the rotation of it''s updraft.
wiki said:
A supercell is a thunderstorm that is characterized by the presence of a mesocyclone: a deep, persistently rotating updraft.[1] For this reason, these storms are sometimes referred to as rotating thunderstorms.[2] Of the four classifications of thunderstorms (supercell, squall line, multi-cell, and single-cell), supercells are the overall least common and have the potential to be the most severe. Supercells are often isolated from other thunderstorms, and can dominate the local climate up to 32 kilometres (20 mi) away.
I would suggest that the super cell has inherantly greater mass than surrounding atmospheric pheno therefore it's COG has a more profound effect gravitatinally on it's immediate surroundings
 
I get a really sneeky suspicion that the super cells maybe "tracking" a land mass COG and when they are in the right position a funnel forms. The updraft being angular and essentially seeking an appropriate land COG
800px-Supercell02.svg.png
 
an excellent video of the progress of a tornado though Oil Trough/ Newport, Arkansas USA May 25th 2011
[video=youtube;9btvJJ5cRRU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9btvJJ5cRRU[/video]
 
Interesting question you posed, how heavy are particles...? note the undraughts in both tornado and storm cells, these are particles that are acting lighter and as a single body. There is an orchestration happening.

You also asked what it takes to move such a large mass, which indeed it is, especially that it will accelerate rapidly, and not just in one area but for miles around.

In the case of a hurricane, the atmosphere can be changed in direction, billions of tons or air, as far as 1,500 miles away in response to the developing low pressure system, in a relatively short time, as little as 3 hours, when the normal weather changes take up to 36 hours to affect a change over 1500 miles.

You also said that storms cells are tracking something or following the place of least resistence. This is a very important observation, and your theory on a COG is also correct, but it is not the conventional effect of measurable gravity that is doing the job.
Your centre of attraction is a real phenomenon that is caused by a force that not only affects the orientation and weight of each particle, but that they all are attracted to certain, determinable sites and tracks that seem to guide these monsters. These forces are related to gravity so your incling is right.

Once I show you what to look for, you will see those forces working.
 
In regards to this zero point going below the surface of the ground, it does and intensifies the deeper you go. But the atmosphere is also divided into both horizontal layers and circular ground patterns that create differences in molecular behaviour and orientation. You may get a strong layer which will 'statisfy' the tornado and cause it to cease. The forces that generate these changes, go right through the earth in specific patterns, and the atmosphere responds to them.
 
There is an orchestration happening.

Indubitably so!
It is always important to realise that no system can be treated in isolation in reality but can be done so in "abstraction" eh? The beauty of the human intellect and imagination is to be able to create arbitary realities to facilitate undertstanding of a complete "orchestration" - a pseudo dialectical approach.

In the case of a hurricane, the atmosphere can be changed in direction, billions of tons or air, as far as 1,500 miles away in response to the developing low pressure system, in a relatively short time, as little as 3 hours, when the normal weather changes take up to 36 hours to affect a change over 1500 miles.
Hence the weather in the northern hemisphere has a direct and sometimes profound effect on the weather in the Southern hemisphere [ & viv ] via the equatorial "trough" or "wall" regardless of an apparent time limitation imposed by the "speed of light". as the entire weather picture of the world is one large gravitatinal orchestration with a certain "elasticity" due to variables.
You also said that storms cells are tracking something or following the place of least resistence. This is a very important observation, and your theory on a COG is also correct, but it is not the conventional effect of measurable gravity that is doing the job.

Intuitively many have suggested same, that indeed a tornado or hurricane [ cyclone ] path appears to be tracking or following itself to a given destination [ "mind of it's own" ] and with an understanding of zero point and working with culminant COG's [Langrange points] etc one could possiby make sense for what appears intuitivley to be the case and even make solid predictions once that understanding is comprehensive enough and the technology is present to ascertain the data required.

Your centre of attraction is a real phenomenon that is caused by a force that not only affects the orientation and weight of each particle, but that they all are attracted to certain, determinable sites and tracks that seem to guide these monsters. These forces are related to gravity so your incling is right.
Thank you for the validation!

Once I show you what to look for, you will see those forces working.

This comment is most suggestive... please explain...

Current scientific thought does dwell on the above issues I am sure however due to the politics of venturing new ideas and concepts, they may be reluctant to express those thoughts. As often demonstrated here at sciforums which can be seen as a microcosm world of predominantly American [ cosmopolitain ] thinkers all competing in ways that are some times not very condusive to the task at hand.
The idea of working with COG's as a source of "orchestration" is definitely controversial because to do so has implications and ramifications on other considerably treasured scientific achievments of the past.
It is also worth noting that all this is a work in progress for me and as new input comes to hand the thinking evolves and matures.
Suffice the idea of Tornadoes being used to graphically demonstrate zero point theory only occurred about 5 days ago and is now a phenonema item that may be utilised to make the predictions that science requires for it to be considered seriously. It is personally, however, of no real importance either way, as I am more interested in more signifcant issues related to my own better understanding of Zero Point Theory. There is a much bigger picture invloved I guess and changing the way we or I think about Gravity is only a small part of it.
 
Another example of extended application of the notion:
There is no coinicidence for me that the extraordinary development of Cyclone Yasi late January 2011 occurred over a fault line. A fault line that was directly associated with 2 other major natural events. The severe Earth quakes at both, Christchurch New Zealand 22/02/2012 and Fukushima, Japan 11/04/2011
It can be considered that possibly the devlopement of this extraordinary cyclone [Yasi] was an indication of extraordinary changes in land mass COG intensities, precipitating the release or venting of energy with the advent of both Earth quakes.
fault lines:
70be4d9b48a0.gif

Note that both Japan and New Zealand share a "convergent" fault line.
Note also that that Yasi as with most North Eastern Australian Cyclones form near or above that fault line.
Note also that Yasi was absolutely immense in size yet fizzled to more of less nothing as it approached the mainland. [Here we were expecting a huge natural disaster of massive proportions] Instead approx. 75% of Queensland [ a huge area of land mass - state] was flooded [ seriously flooded ]
storm path:
800px-Yasi_2011_track.png

at it's max intensity after moving from it's generation point that was
seemingly right on top or very close to the fault line. [ as per casual inspection, so far, only]
459px-Yasi_feb_1_2011_0000Z.jpg

the implication of this speculation is that the intensity of the COGs in the fault line which proved later to be quite extraordinary with events at Fukishima, generated the scale and scope of the weather outcome [ Yasi ].
Now these are simply speculations that may lead to some sort of understanding about the better truth of the climate change we as a world are experiencing....yet to be revealed.
 
Its hard for me to keep up with you, because you have many ideas going on at once. That's not bad, but slow down please and take one point at a time, and resist the urge to smack politics or whatever.

For instance your thread in energy jumps into dark matter. All subjects are related and you have the advantage of jumping, but you are like a loose hose in the back yard, water going in all directions... you know what I mean? I do the same sometimes, it comes from the fear of not being understood, or not really knowing what you want to understand.

In a sense it is good to be curtailed by the ones who don't see it our way. It demands a better approach.
 
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