Thread For Christians Only.
- Thread starter Angelic Being
- Start date
The irony... If God created our universe then the physical world is the 'word of God' and therefor should be followed by theists? But they continue to ignore the 'word of God' for their own made-up God. God created evolution but theists don't give God the credit for this and say THEIR God created us fully formed 10,000 years ago...
Whose "reality"?
The reality which exists right outside your institutions window, the one we all share. Notice that there are no gods or demons hiding in the bushes.
If there are no truths, and all is relative, how can you speak of "reality"?
The word 'truth' has been bastardized by theists in that their truths are based on their own god fantasies. I'm sure you've read by now that one theists truth is anothers lie. That has been made evident here, even by you.
Those so-called truths have nothing to do with reality.
The reality which exists right outside your institutions window, the one we all share. Notice that there are no gods or demons hiding in the bushes.
If there are no truths, and all is relative, how can you speak of "reality"?
The word 'truth' has been bastardized by theists in that their truths are based on their own god fantasies. I'm sure you've read by now that one theists truth is anothers lie. That has been made evident here, even by you.
Those so-called truths have nothing to do with reality.
Would a god care for children more than the parents?
He lets the parents starve too.
Could there be good without evil?
Good and evil are concepts defined by theists and are therefore relative. One mans good is anothers evil.
Causing or not causing harm to others only requires a common sense of decency.
Could a god, who gives free will, ever intervene in the affairs of men?
That would depend on which theist you spoke to, some believe in a personal god.
He lets the parents starve too.
Could there be good without evil?
Good and evil are concepts defined by theists and are therefore relative. One mans good is anothers evil.
Causing or not causing harm to others only requires a common sense of decency.
Could a god, who gives free will, ever intervene in the affairs of men?
That would depend on which theist you spoke to, some believe in a personal god.
if you believe the bible, and in a god, then you have no free will.jayleew said:
Free will. Christians believe that people who do not accept Jesus as the son of God will go to Hell.?
Hell is a place defined in the New Testament of the bible which did not exist in the Old Testament.?
Christians believe that it is not wrong for their god to send his creations to Hell because their god gave mankind "free will". ?
Free will, according to Christians, is man's innate ability to know right from wrong and make his own choices freely without intervention from their god until they are judged by their god after death.?
Problem 1. Judgment and punishment.
The holy bible describes God as omniscient, omnipotent and loving ?. Most Christians are very fond of saying how loving their god is?. If a god is all powerful, and all knowing, then he knows exactly what a person will do before he even creates them?. Before the Christian god creates a man with a soul, he knows whether or not that man will go to Hell. He is omniscient and He created Hell?. The Christian god then makes people anyway, even though he knows he will send most of them to Hell?. Free Will as defined by the Christians is therefore quite completely impossible by their definition of their god?. Why would a loving god make men and send them to hell for being exactly what he created them to be? He is perfect, so he certainly doesn't do it by accident. A god can not be loving, omniscient, omnipotent and send people to Hell. They are mutually exclusive.
Problem 2. Ethnic Upbringing.
How can Christians use free will as an excuse for their god sending people to Hell who do not believe in Jesus as the Christ? People born to Muslim parents in a Muslim country where belief in the Muslim faith is a law will almost certainly not grow up to be Christans. Why would this loving god of theirs create men and send them to Hell for growing up to be a good Muslim citizens? If the man is born in a Muslim country to Muslim parents, the chances of him changing his faith to Christianity is lower than his chances of winning the Lotto. Most people stay in the faith that they were raised in. Perhaps not the same sect, but still the same god. 99% of these "Good Christians" would be "Good Muslims" if they had been born in Iran/iraq etc Then they would be going to Hell, too. how fair is that coming from your loving god?.
Problem 3. Knowing right from wrong.
Through basic psychology we know that violence can be increased or lessened by stimulating different areas of the brain. We know that people's moods can be altered by introducing drugs, prescription or otherwise, to the brain. We know that children are extremely effected at a subconscious level by the interactions with their family and community at a very young age. How is it that the soul of a person, which is supposed to be innately aware of good and evil, so easily manipulated with material things such as Prozac?
In short, we know for a fact that each and every adult is a product of the sums of their genetic brain structure, their very early formative years, and random luck such as being born to extremely violent, crime ridden, poverty stricken neighborhoods, or to extremely affluent parents who are politically connected with the community.
Therefore, a person who is born into an underprivileged drug addicted, and abusive family will have an enormous chance of leading a life full of angry resentment and serious brushes with the law as well as violating the ten commandments with wild abandon. Such a person would be much more likely to go to Hell than a fortunate soul who is born to an extremely well adjusted suburban upper-middle class family which raises their children in the Christian church.
Go ask all the "evil monsters" who deserve the death penalty in America's prisons about their childhoods. While you're at it, check out their IQ's. IQ tests are not at all a test of education. They contain no vocabulary or math question, but simply are comprised of problem solving exercises. Low IQ's indicate an inability to think in a logical manner, and therefore to create rational thoughts and decisions. Have you ever met an atheist with a low IQ? Have you ever met a relgious Fundamentalist with a high IQ? Do retarded people go to hell for not being good Christians? If not, then at what particular IQ level does this god start issuing exemptions? Why is it that this Christian god who professes to love the poor drops the greatest statistical chances of being patently violent and "ungodly" upon the poor people He supposedly loves so much?
The religious say it all the time. "There, but for the grace of God, go I." If they consider it God's grace that they were not so afflicted, then how is it that they can forgive their god for so afflicting others? How can a man who's children survived a hurricane say that God was watching out for them and offer prayers of thanks when his neighbor's children are dead from the same storm? Did those other children not deserve God's love so much as his? It is not conceptually sound that children who endure hell on earth should be sent to hell after death by a god who professes to love them so.
there you have it.
with thanks to WarOnFaith
(Q) said:
No. There is emnity betwixt the two. I have no business meddling in their affairs. I cannot bring them together any more than I can force two positive poles to stay together. I happen to find the phenomena interesting from an observational standpoint. Don't you? The differences between the way we think? Hopefully by now you do not discount me as a dullard, maybe a fantasist sure but not a dullard? I think it would be more interesting to find out what we have in 'common' dont you? The circular arguments are not leading anyone anywhere and I feel like I am missing out on what could be a more interesting exercise i.e. trying to find out what we agree upon! :m:
peace
c20
(Q) said:
Yes, God allows evil men in high positions to oppress its own people. What would you have? Heaven? If we lived in a perfect world, there would be no hunger because everyone would be living to help one another. This is not heaven, and it can never be perfect, which you think it can be. You are fool if you think after 200,000 years, man can someday live in peace. There will always be people who think differently. As you said, good and evil are relative concepts. And God, if he really did exist, is supposed to not allow bad things to happen to good people? There are so many wrong things with that logic, that I don't know where to begin. My first question would be, if God loves us ALL, how could he choose an "evil" man's side over a "good" man's side? Isn't love letting your children make mistakes? Or do you keep them close in your house and protect them from all harm? Which position is more humane?
I believe the Bible in context, and in the God of Elijah, Jacob, and Abraham and I have free will.audible said:
It describes God as omnipotent, loving, and knowing all hearts. To say God is omniscient is speculation.audible said:
Is that why he told Moses that he would destroy his people because they sin to spite what God has done for them, then after Moses pleaded for their lives, God changed its mind? Either God was playing dumb and knew what Moses would say and just told Moses he would destroy them anyway, or at the time God said he would destroy the people, did he not expect Moses to plead for their lives, and was moved by his heart. Many times, Jesus was moved by people's hearts. How could he be moved if it was expected, predetermined, and known beforehand? It's like pretending you are excited about a gift that you know you already are going to get. Why did Jesus cry, when he knew he would raise Lazarus from the grave? Didn't he expect the people to move his heart?audbile said:
It is far more likely that it is a myth that God is omniscient, at least if I am making sense of the scriptures. But what do I know?
Then why would he REGRET that he made man. It says in Gensis, that he regretted making man, and would destroy them with a flood. God told Noah these things. If God knew beforehand if each man would go to hell or heaven, why go through with the charade? Isn't it more likely he created Hell for those that would choose to live apart from God? At least, if God wasn't omnisicient. If God was omnisicient, we would not have free will. I have free will, so God is not omnisicient. At least, if reality is as I preceive it.audible said:
Perhaps, God is not omniscient, and hopes that they will be told the truth.audible said:
God promised to Ishmael and Isaac that their children would be numerous.audible said:
He is keeping his promise, and knows that the odds are slim, but that they exist, and it is worth giving them a small chance.
We can only speculate on who goes to heaven or hell. Everyone will be judged in the end, from the "good" to the "evil". Will God remember your sin? That is up to whether you believe Jesus, God's song, died for you.audible said:
No one knows whose name is written in the book of life, whether it is an underpriveledged child, or a saint. All will be judged according to their works. We will be judged fairly, and get what we wanted...a life devoid of God, or a life always with God.
Whatever...your arguments are made on a false premise that God is omniscient. You cannot establish that God is omniscient because God either is not, or God does not exist. At least, that is my perception with my current evidence.
The stories from the Bible tell me that God is not omniscient. The fact that I have a choice to go home and beat my wife or not tells me that I have free will. God can only speculate based on what we are thinking. But, I would hope that his mind is able to deduce with more accuracy and precision than mine.
This (Q)uestion has yet to receive a response worthy of a second glance.water said:
In my book, the (Q)uality of some posts are (Q)uite approaching M*W status a.k.a "see the name - or letter as the case may be - and move on" status.
I really see this (my) post here as one approaching said quality itself - it might have something to do with (Q)ause and effe(Q)t *comedy drum roll* - ex(Q)se my spelling.
Angelic Being
Registered Senior Member
chastity said:
sounds like hasbeen again.