This is too much to bear anymore!!!

[GeoffP]

There is hard evidence from the UN of atrocities against children and civilians.

Where?

 

[GeoffP]

Tiassa, I'll have to get back to you. We wish to embrace the whole world in our responses, but we never shall.

 

[iceaura]

It helps to condition the debate: should Israel fire back anyway? What if they don't? What if they do?

I'm sorry if this makes the expected argumentative walkover cumbersome. Facts are facts.

I don't see the relevance to the discussion I was involved in, which was about Israel dropping bombs, firing artillery, and employing WP munitions on a crowded city.

"Fire back" isn't a blanket authorization on all available hardware.

A long tradition, adopted by every single enemy of the good, true, and noble.
”
If you think so.

It's what I am told, at most available opportunities. Unless the Viet Cong invented the tactic, which is doubtful.

It only works in certain circumstances, most of which reflect poorly on the aggressor in a battle.

It's usually an excuse for atrocity.

“
We must note it's a good thing they do. Otherwise the tactics employed by those who "inevitably" and without moral blame bomb schoolhouses and use WP munitions in crowded cities tehy themselves have walled and blockaded, would impugn their motives, and their overall goals.
”
Again: is there a reason the rocket launching sites couldn't be at the Tesco's across the way? Why is it as it is? It's an honest question that deserves an honest answer, and the wherewithal of reflection.

It is not an honest question, in that it assumes it hasn't already been answered - with reflection.

At best, Israel has adopted tactics that can be easily manipulated by the unscrupulous, to the net benefit of evil on both sides. Since Israel is the aggressor, and employing an officially organized military, its adopted tactics are completely its own responsibility.

 

[GeoffP]

It certainly is an honest question, ice. Hamas - which you correctly call unscrupulous - has their real answer, which they keep to themselves, while railing in public about the evils of Israel.

Is there really an aggressor in this any longer?

Again: what if Israel doesn't fire back? What if they leave Gaza again, and the West Bank too? What will happen? I think we both know.

 

[Bells]

There we are. A camel could not pass through the hair of different between your opinion and Hamas'.

If you look at IDF's interpretation of what defines a civilian and what defines being an enemy combatant (mere passing acquaintance is enough to constitute being a target of a bomb, it would seem), then Hamas is entirely correct in viewing Israel as being entirely made up of military targets, civilian or not..

I shall remind you again of this particular quote..

But when an Israeli military spokesman also says things like "anything affiliated with Hamas is a legitimate target," things get complicated.

The International Committee of the Red Cross - guardian of the Geneva Conventions on which international humanitarian law is based - defines a combatant as a person "directly engaged in hostilities".

But Israeli Defence Forces spokesman Captain Benjamin Rutland told the BBC: "Our definition is that anyone who is involved with terrorism within Hamas is a valid target. This ranges from the strictly military institutions and includes the political institutions that provide the logistical funding and human resources for the terrorist arm."

Philippe Sands, Professor of International Law at University College London, says he is not aware of any Western democracy having taken so broad a definition.

"Once you extend the definition of combatant in the way that IDF is apparently doing, you begin to associate individuals who are only indirectly or peripherally involved… it becomes an open-ended definition, which undermines the very object and purpose of the rules that are intended to be applied."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7811386.stm

Hamas is merely applying the same standards that the IDF have applied.

Where?

I guess you just don't keep up with the news, do you?

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=25891&Cr=gaza&Cr1=

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=29501&Cr=Gaza&Cr1=

Here is a statement from UNICEF.

 

[Bells]

A fascinating reply.

I can only assume the supply trucks from Egypt will be streaming across the border any moment, eager to nourish and replenish the long-suffering Palestinian people.

Yep.

Any minute now.

That is if Israel allows them to pass. They closed the border and won't let anyone through, in case you weren't aware.

 

[iceaura]

It certainly is an honest question, ice. Hamas - which you correctly call unscrupulous - has their real answer, which they keep to themselves, while railing in public about the evils of Israel.

But the answer isn't relevant. The best you can say is that Israel's proclivity for atrocity is so predictable that Hamas can exploit it for PR purposes. The worst is much worse.

Is there really an aggressor in this any longer?

You've got to be kidding.

Again: what if Israel doesn't fire back? What if they leave Gaza again, and the West Bank too? What will happen? I think we both know.

About now your motives in dodging the argument come into question.

The question is not whether Israel should or should not "fire back"

- although in another discussion one might hazard the answer "First, Israel should make at least one good faith attempt to keep its side of a truce or agreement", or even "we're not talking about firing back. We're talking about firing first." -

but rather the entire discussion is about the ways in which Israel "fires back". Israel is killing way too many civilians, by adopting bad tactics.

 

[StrawDog]

It cannot be condoned, yes, but it is a categorical fact. Hamas has admitted to it; a few months back as I recall.

It is utterly regrettable and despicable that desperation can cause criminal actions such as this.

Not in the slightest. These are the very kind of slogans one encounters in an examination of islamist terror. As for the deaths: what else would you imagine? If terrorists fire from directly behind your school - and I can tell you from experience that it is fundamentally impossible to miss the sound of a mortar from almost a mile away, let alone from directly behind a building; a distance of at most 100 meters - what then? Is it not considerably more rational to, say, depart the building? But people don't. Why not? Photographs have also been taken of 'resistance' (since you may well object to 'terrorist') soldiers firing at Israelis with children packed in tightly around the shooter. I'm really not sure what your purpose in this speculation is. Whatever you think of the cause, there's little doubt that this is what is being done.

There is as yet no evidence that Hamas is deploying this tactic in this particular conflict. Nothing can be substantiated as no journalists are allowed into Gaza. The IDF version is obviously not reliable. Your views on this conflict are consistent with the explanation below:

Palestinian commentators point to an obvious imbalance: Israel has barred foreign journalists from entering Gaza since the start of the war, effectively pulling the blinds over events within the strip. But Palestinian analyst Ghassan Khatib says there is another factor at play in the overall media skew. "Even if the Palestinian side came up with proper messages, Hamas has been successfully labelled by Israel as a terrorist group and is portrayed in the western media in a manner similar to al-Qaida," he says. As a result, western audiences are more prepared to sympathise with Israel – because it fits the "us or them" binary to which post 9/11 ears are attuned.

(http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/10/gaza-israel-media)

Unfortunately, this was followed by the 1968 and 1971 wars, which were not provoked by the Israelis.

Not negating the tragedy that befell the Jews historically and during WW2, the fact that the new Israeli State had run rough shod over and displaced the Palestinians (read Arabs), treated them as inconsequential, imprisoned them and stolen their homeland does not count as provocation?

I don't say that all Israelis would gladly part with them. Yet, there was the Oslo Accord which failed at the behest of Arafat. Some such accords have failed on the Israeli side and some on the Palestinian side. You seem to take the opinion that all such failures have been the fault of the Israelis. Why do you believe that this is so?

I concur that there are and were failures on both sides of this debacle. Of course the simple irrevocable fact remains that the creation of the State of Israel was illegal at worst and a grave travesty of justice at best. (a simplistic statement, but fundamentally accurate) Hence the ongoing conflict.

It really matters little. The rockets and the terrorism were never going to stop anyway.

It matters plenty. Terrorism is a mythical and hypocritical term to use here. Freedom fighter is more apt. Oppression engenders resistance. Treat the disease, not the symptom. I could say from a Palestinian viewpoint: "The oppression is not going to stop anyway."

BTW: could you occasionally use the word "Israeli" instead of "Zionist"? I've already made concessions to the alternative perspective in my terminology, as you've seen above. Also, longer answers - see Tiassa below for an example - might be more effective. Without communication, how can we find common ground?

I have attempted to be more fair regarding your point in this post. The distinction is that all Israelis do not support Zionism. The Zionists are to blame for this outrage against humanity.

Best,

Straw

 

[StrawDog]

Where?

This wretched pair will be added to the nearly 300 Gaza children who have been killed by Israeli fire. In the perversely disproportionate mathematics of this conflict, 13 Israelis have been killed – four of them by militant rockets. According to the Hamas-run Palestinian health ministry, the overall death toll now exceeds 800, more than a third of them children. The United Nations corroborates this, a report two days ago from the Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs putting the number of children killed at 265].

(http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...me-to-hell-gazas-unending-misery-1299668.html)

 

[GeoffP]

Ah! So many fans! Please, please! You'll all get a signature if you just line up! One comment per poster only!

That is if Israel allows them to pass. They closed the border and won't let anyone through, in case you weren't aware.

Bells, are you aware of which nation borders the Gaza strip to the south, and under whose control the border there is presently?

But the answer isn't relevant. The best you can say is that Israel's proclivity for atrocity is so predictable that Hamas can exploit it for PR purposes. The worst is much worse.

Hamas is firing the weapons from there...and it's Israel's proclivity for atrocity? You've got to be kidding. But please don't presume to question my motives on this, ice.

It is utterly regrettable and despicable that desperation can cause criminal actions such as this.

All right, so we're on the admission, which is good. But now you say they're driven to it? Why? Is Israel similarly driven to hammer Gaza also? Why or why not? It's really not possible to dismiss my views because they fit into some theoretical pigeon-hole in the minds of others. Let's have some discussion, and less definition.

Not negating the tragedy that befell the Jews historically and during WW2, the fact that the new Israeli State had run rough shod over and displaced the Palestinians (read Arabs), treated them as inconsequential, imprisoned them and stolen their homeland does not count as provocation?

You have perhaps missed the part where they attacked and oppressed the Jews of Palestine right up until 1948. After that point, the societal oppression mysteriously dropped off.

I concur that there are and were failures on both sides of this debacle. Of course the simple irrevocable fact remains that the creation of the State of Israel was illegal at worst and a grave travesty of justice at best. (a simplistic statement, but fundamentally accurate) Hence the ongoing conflict.

What else were they going to do, exactly, in 1948? Die? I suppose they could have, but why?

The very best Jan 11th to all of you,

GeoffP

 

[skywalker]

hmmm more peace loving initiatives by the state of israel;

http://news.aol.com/article/bush-nixed-israeli-plan-for-raid-on-iran/301093

All they want is war, war war and more war. First they used USA to destroy irak and then they wanted Iran... when usa refused they went for palestine.


Geoff, every one knows that hamas is a terror group but genocide commited by israelis behind the veil o self defense and your open support of killing women and children and innocent civilans is beyond understanding and very disturbing.

 

[Bells]

Ah! So many fans! Please, please! You'll all get a signature if you just line up! One comment per poster only!

I liken it more to poking a primate with a stick in its cage. But we'll just carry on with our being fans.

Bells, are you aware of which nation borders the Gaza strip to the south, and under whose control the border there is presently?

[/QUOTE]
Yes. Egypt. Which sealed its borders when the Israeli incursion began. Other borders are controlled by Israel.

What's your point? Egypt, along with Israel, closed the borders in the hope of weakening the Hamas leadership. Their actions may have backfired on them..

The longer the Israeli military operation endures, Hamas believes, the more it damages the Israelis' political goal of isolating and weakening the radical movement. A cease-fire that ends rocket attacks from Gaza into Israel won't necessarily be a setback for Hamas; the organization has, in fact, demanded such a truce all along, on the condition that Israel and Egypt open the border crossings that would allow a resumption of normal economic life in Gaza. (The crossings have long been closed, as Israel hoped that economic pressure might topple the Hamas regime there.) A cease-fire that fails to reopen the crossings would be deemed a defeat by Hamas, but as long as a truce lifts the economic siege, Hamas believes it will be politically strengthened by the confrontation.

Israel's Foreign Minister, Tzipi Livni, has repeatedly stressed that by weakening Hamas in Gaza, the Israeli military operation will boost moderate Arab leaders threatened by radical Islamist groups. But the opposite may be occurring, as pan-Arab cable news channels carry round-the-clock coverage of civilian suffering in Gaza. Amid the wave of outrage against Israel and those Arab leaders accused of enabling its offensive, even leaders who had initially blamed Hamas for the crisis have been forced to revert to boilerplate denunciations of Israel. Hamas leaders insist that their political and security infrastructure remains intact, and they believe the steady stream of images of bloodshed and destruction in Gaza will be their most effective weapon against the Israeli invasion. Israel destroyed Hamas' TV station early in the bombing campaign, but the fact that it is still broadcasting by means unknown suggests that the organization, just like Israel, has placed a premium on shaping the perception of the conflict. Its focus is on maintaining and expanding its political power after the Israelis retreat.

Although Egypt, which brokered last June's cease-fire but remains hostile to Hamas, invited the radical Palestinian group to talks in Cairo on Monday, Hamas is looking elsewhere for mediation: to Turkey. Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has been touring the region, and plans to take Hamas' cease-fire demands to the U.N. Security Council this week. Ankara, via its relations with Syria, has better access to Hamas than Egypt does. Turkey also has historically close relations with Israel and is a key NATO member, although it has angered Israeli leaders by condemning Israel for maintaining the economic siege of Gaza even while Hamas observed last year's truce. There's emerging consensus in diplomatic discussions about a cease-fire of the need to deploy an international force in Gaza to police it, and Turkey would be a prime candidate for such a mission.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090106/wl_time/08599186980700

You have perhaps missed the part where they attacked and oppressed the Jews of Palestine right up until 1948. After that point, the societal oppression mysteriously dropped off.

Well the Jews are enjoying the show now. Hell, one even brought a picnic!

A tower of white smoke rose from the northern Gaza town of Beit Hanoun after another Israeli bombardment Monday morning, and a half-dozen Israelis, perched on a dusty hilltop, gazed at the scene like armchair military strategists.

Avi Pilchick took a long swig of Pepsi and propped a foot on the plastic patio chair he'd carried up the hillside to watch the fighting. "They are doing good," Pilchick, 20, said of Israeli forces battling Palestinian militants in Gaza, "but they can do more."

---------------------------------------------------

Sderot residents — some of them carrying binoculars — have gathered on the hilltop since the offensive began for a glimpse of the fighting, but little was clear Monday morning besides the pop of outgoing Israeli shells and the occasional helicopter gunship overhead. Pilchick was the only spectator who brought chairs and snacks including bread, cheese and a can of olives.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/world/AP/story/838845.html

Fun times!!

And in the area they are gleefully watching and praising?

Somewhere in Beit Hanoun, Ashraf El-Masri's family cowered in their concrete tenement home, their neighborhood surrounded by Israeli soldiers. El-Masri said five residents had been killed by Israeli shelling that morning, and the blasts had traumatized the youngest of his nine children into a terrified silence.

--------------------------------------------------------

In their darkened home in Beit Hanoun, Ashraf El-Masri's children were in utter distress. No one has stepped outside since Israeli ground forces entered the town Saturday night, and more Israeli shelling awakened them Monday morning, including a strike on a nearby mosque.

El-Masri's 12-year-old son, Abdelatif, has suddenly begun to wet the bed. His 10-year-old, Ahmad, a talented soccer player and popular kid in the neighborhood, spends the days hiding in a corner of the room where the whole family now sleeps. Four-year-old Mahmoud, usually a nonstop talker, is barely saying a word.

The smell of fresh fruit, vegetables and bread used to waft through the house, but for several days the family has eaten only lentils and rice.

Not so fun times.

 

[skywalker]

Well the Jews are enjoying the show now. Hell, one even brought a picnic!



Fun times!!

And in the area they are gleefully watching and praising?



Not so fun times.

Just shows the mentality of these people, disgusting, they are celebrating and enjoying the deaths of innocent civilians and I can't believe that people in this forum are supporting this behavior. I am supprise that CNN is not coming up with the news that "Israelis enjoying and having good time while watching palestanians dying and witnessing the slaughter of innocents". Oh oh I get it, its CNN...and as long as muslims are dying it really doesn't matter to them, God forbid if it was other way around, all the western news channels would have been covering those people 24/7. Talking about double standards.

 

[iceaura]

Hamas is firing the weapons from there...and it's Israel's proclivity for atrocity? You've got to be kidding. But please don't presume to question my motives on this, ice.

You are dodging and deflecting a fairly simple question - once again.

You repeatedly attempt to pretend that the argument is about Israel's right to "fire back". No one is claiming Israel has no right to respond to attacks. Please cease to pretend otherwise.

You yourself observe that Israel's willingness to rocket and bomb and shell children is so predictable that Hamas can count on it, use tactics for obtaining public sympathy that depend on it. You allege that Hamas has been doing that, which is one matter. You assume that Israel would be willing to do its part - which is another matter, and the one I have been talking about.

 

[GeoffP]

Geoff, every one knows that hamas is a terror group but genocide commited by israelis behind the veil o self defense and your open support of killing women and children and innocent civilans is beyond understanding and very disturbing.

As expected, you have not understood my position. Good day.

Yes. Egypt. Which sealed its borders when the Israeli incursion began. Other borders are controlled by Israel.

What's your point? Egypt, along with Israel, closed the borders in the hope of weakening the Hamas leadership. Their actions may have backfired on them..

My point is that both Egypt and Hamas jointly control the entrances on the Egyptian side. Why are they not allowing food and medicine through? "Backfired on them"?? Your justification for the human tragedy occuring in Gaza because of the utter unconcern of Egypt for the lives of the Gazans is that it backfired on them? Great. Your support of the deliberate starvation and isolation of 2 million people is founded on some blithe apparent "accident" by the Egyptian government? This Egyptian genocide of the Gazan people cannot be allowed to continue, and the defense of it by anyone is sickening.

...sound familiar?

But the point also stands: what's Egypt doing? Why not?

Well the Jews are enjoying the show now. Hell, one even brought a picnic!

"The Jews" are?

I think you mean ze Jews.

And you criticize me for purportedly demonizing people! Yet I attack socio-political concepts (this means the "higher reasons fer doin' stuff"), and you are attacking people. Ze Jews. Not "ze Israelis" or even "ze Zionists". It's ze Jews. Nice.

You are dodging and deflecting a fairly simple question - once again.

You repeatedly attempt to pretend that the argument is about Israel's right to "fire back". No one is claiming Israel has no right to respond to attacks. Please cease to pretend otherwise.

Actually, my point was implied. What about any response would be different, except for the loss of life? There's a sentiment that "oooh, now it's going to get really bad", but it already was, and was going to stay that way for about...ever. Please cease to pretend otherwise.

You yourself observe that Israel's willingness to rocket and bomb and shell children

Good impartiality. That wasn't propagandist at all.

is so predictable that Hamas can count on it, use tactics for obtaining public sympathy that depend on it. You allege that Hamas has been doing that, which is one matter.

It isn't an allegation, but rather an admission by Hamas. It isn't specious in any way. So who is responsible ultimately? You don't seem to understand that Hamas could fire from anywhere. They don't need to pick schools. But they do. Shall we explain it? Or shall you dodge the issue again?

 

[ElectricFetus]

Just shows the mentality of these people, disgusting, they are celebrating and enjoying the deaths of innocent civilians and I can't believe that people in this forum are supporting this behavior. I am supprise that CNN is not coming up with the news that "Israelis enjoying and having good time while watching palestanians dying and witnessing the slaughter of innocents". Oh oh I get it, its CNN...and as long as muslims are dying it really doesn't matter to them, God forbid if it was other way around, all the western news channels would have been covering those people 24/7. Talking about double standards.

I don't think the Israeli soldiers are taking joy in killing civilians, rather their taking joy in killing "terrorist". Now mind you if the Palestinians really are being killed off genocidally, israel should be able to wipe out all of gaza in a few weeks, kill off every last, man women and child, by bombing every single structure, and having their soldier walk through shooting everything that moves that not them. But strangely enough after decades of claims that israel commits acts of genocide against the Palestinians, the Palestinian Population grows at a tremendous rate. The evidence suggest the israelis accidentally kill civilians when trying to kill terrorist, likely because the terrorist (by their own admission) us civilians as human shields) I would expect at least 5-10% of gazians to be dead and at least 80-90% homeless by now if Israel was in fact bombing indiscriminately (statistics based on nazi terror bombings)

 

[S.A.M.]

the terrorist (by their own admission) us civilians as human shields)

May I see this admission?

 

[ElectricFetus]

May I see this admission?

Certainly,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0wJXf2nt4Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYtij4Q7sE

 

[S.A.M.]

You're quoting MEMRI TV as a source?

MEMRI was founded in 1998 by Israeli Yigal Carmon along with Dr. Meyrav Wurmser.

Look up both those names

 

[ElectricFetus]

You're quoting MEMRI TV as a source?
Look up both those names

So? the messenger is not the question: if a Nazi had video evidence of jews drinking the blood of genitals, you can't disregard the evidence because the photographer is a Nazi, you may question the evidence specifically, claiming it is altered or not authentic ... perhaps you want to say the videos were mistranslated and they are actually talking about a horse and pony show?