This is too much to bear anymore!!!

spidergoat said:
The Germans were trying to kill them. The Israelis only want them to stop killing Israelis.
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Once again, please get a clearer picture of the situation before making comparisons. The Israelis have committed plenty killing. One would think they would know better from past experience. :(
 
StrawDog said:
Once again, please get a clearer picture of the situation before making comparisons. The Israelis have committed plenty killing. One would think they would know better from past experience. :(
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You may want to be careful bringing up 'past experiences' when it comes to killing in the name of gods. Muslims had more than their share.
 
(Q) said:
You may want to be careful bringing up 'past experiences' when it comes to killing in the name of gods. Muslims had more than their share.
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From what I can gather G-d (Y-H) did a fair amount of mass smiting. Does that count?
 
StrawDog said:
From what I can gather G-d (Y-H) did a fair amount of mass smiting. Does that count?
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Most certainly. It all falls under the loving umbrella of the god of Abraham. Of course, they've been killing each other for centuries over their beliefs, why stop now?
 
Because of race and religion I see no end to the conflict.

If we consider the west we can see how the ideals of democracy have superseded those of religion and finally it also seems those of race (ex: Obama). Democracy just isn't part of the ME mindset. If it were they'd value it more than religion (which is somehow erroneously mixed together with race - a recipe for disaster).

Imagine taking God, which is imaginary, and race, which is also imaginary and mixing them together. That's the ME.

I was once in a class where a Xian started asking some of us about our religions. One of the guys said he and his brother were Muslims. This started a small "discussion" with the Muslims telling the Xian that they also believed in Jesus ... but because the flaws in the Bible, they follow the Qur'an. Which corrected these Biblical flaws. Well, needless to say, all this talk of Bible + Flaw did not make the Xian happy. Now, funny enough, there was another girl there as well. She suddenly told the two Muslims, that they were on the right track. For the very same reasons - she was Baha'i. Because her Baha'i book fixes all the Qur'anic flaws in the Qur'an! Well, the jaws dropped on the two Muslim guys. Needless to say, they weren't happy. Then they told her that's not possible. She said it was and is in fact possible. They said she needed to read it in Arabic, she said something in Arabic and their jaws dropped even lower.

The Xian left thinking for them to understand the Bible they needed to be "saved" (pop the blue pill).
The Muslims left unhappy.
The Baha'i found out I was atheist and tried to preach a bit to me, even brought me a book one day.

In short: IMO if they were polytheistic, then maybe they could appreciate one another's different beliefs and "co-exist" (I see Shinto do this regularly) or if they were Buddhist then yeah, but with monotheism there is this implicit notion that everyone else is wrong.

In my mind I see this as the basis of ME culture and the root cause of the conflict. Even in this little room, with only talking for a few minutes - the tensions were rising. And this is in the West. Can you imagine what it must be like in the ME?!?

The solutions are to eliminate religion and race. In effect completely change ME culture.
 
StrawDog said:
Horrific oppression perhaps then? When civilian casualties reach the present roughly 6 to 1 ratio, what do you call that? And what do you call this?
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Genocide is not based in casualty ratios. You could call it whatever brand of oppression you might like and be partially correct. Then again: what is the ratio of Jews to Arabs both in Palestine and the surrounding nations? Would the Arab world gladly trade 1 for 1 with the Israelis if if got them Palestine back? (Answer: almost certainly, to judge by their rhetoric.)

Anyway, you didn't answer my question: if Hamas won, what do you think the result would be? An actual genocide, perhaps?

It suggests a desperate struggle by a desperate people. :(
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You are being deliberately disingenuous. It suggests that Hamas wants such casualties for the political sympathy they feel it engenders. And just look at the reporting: of the several hundred dead, most are members of the Hamas organization, but you wouldn't know that from MSNBC or CNN. :shrug: AP is possibly worse.

Asguard said:
MOD HAT:

Q for trolling, take a 1 day holiday
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Q raises a good point here: does anyone else get a 1-day holiday for trolling, or just those on the one side of the issue?

Best,

Geoff
 
Michael said:
Because of race and religion I see no end to the conflict.

...

The solutions are to eliminate religion and race. In effect completely change ME culture.
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Hmm. One wonders. Possibly. Although frankly I prefer the world in its glorious variety.
 
like white supremacy and flat worlder's some ideas have had their time and need to die. not violently mind you, but by education. that's doesn't mean we can't have a LOT of variety! we can!
 
GeoffP said:
Genocide is not based in casualty ratios. You could call it whatever brand of oppression you might like and be partially correct. Then again: what is the ratio of Jews to Arabs both in Palestine and the surrounding nations? Would the Arab world gladly trade 1 for 1 with the Israelis if if got them Palestine back? (Answer: almost certainly, to judge by their rhetoric.)

Anyway, you didn't answer my question: if Hamas won, what do you think the result would be? An actual genocide, perhaps?
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The Vatican are likening the oppression and treatment of the Palestinians as being akin to concentration camps. If you look at the proper definition and stages of genocide, you might be surprised at just how relevant so many of their points connect with what has been done to the Palestinians. But for most, the prefer to ignore it or deny it because it is hard for them to accept that the side they support are committing it. Monkey see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil.. Blaming the other side for their own misfortune is apparently the way to go though. We'll just blame the Palestinians for being there or for being born. That's been Crunchy's stance in this debate. Fun, ya?

You are being deliberately disingenuous. It suggests that Hamas wants such casualties for the political sympathy they feel it engenders. And just look at the reporting: of the several hundred dead, most are members of the Hamas organization, but you wouldn't know that from MSNBC or CNN. AP is possibly worse.
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Yes. Better to not report the total number of casualties and give the number of kids killed.. the babies are probably Hamas as well so they shouldn't count, should they? It's fine to report the number of deaths from Israel, even those of soldiers, because they are the only one's who count in this conflict, aren't they? So what if Palestinians die.. according to fetus, they can just fart out some more kids and it will all be ok again.

The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said its officials and Palestinian ambulance workers had found four starving children huddled with at least 12 corpses in Gaza in a house 80 metres from an Israeli military position.

Among the dead in the house, found lying on mattresses, were the children's mothers, the ICRC said.

In nearby houses in Gaza's devastated Zeitoun neighbourhood, the team found another three corpses and 15 survivors, including several who were wounded, the Geneva-based agency said.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24890572-401,00.html
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I guess those kids were starved for propaganda as well?
 
i am amazed how people are ignoring the critisium coming from the UN and the red cross, ESPECIALLY that coming from the red cross. The red cross is 100% impartial, even to join as an emergency worker in australia means you have to sign a pledge that you have no conection to ANY political organisation (which can be an issue in australia but *shrug*) and there have been VERY few countries critisised by them
 
Asguard said:
i am amazed how people are ignoring the critisium coming from the UN and the red cross, ESPECIALLY that coming from the red cross. The red cross is 100% impartial, even to join as an emergency worker in australia means you have to sign a pledge that you have no conection to ANY political organisation (which can be an issue in australia but *shrug*) and there have been VERY few countries critisised by them
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You mean Israel killing two UN workers? Yep, it's a valid criticism. Israel effed up on that one and have to figure out why. My hypothesis is that the average grunt isn't too bright and it was likely a single jackass who effed the whole thing up.
 
and the red cross ambulance which was prevented from getting to an explosion for 4 days? which grunt are you going to blame for that?, one with stars maybe? or maybe one with a suit?
 
What is the whole point of this war for Israel? What are their objectives and how can they be met?
 
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