This is too much to bear anymore!!!

[Crunchy Cat]

Who? The parents of those children? Yes, it is so much easier to blame the victims, isn't it? I guess we can also blame the Jews in Europe when they were rounded up and placed in concentration camps and slaughtered by the Nazis.. we can tell them they shouldn't have been there.. the Jewish victims who lost their children and whole families.. we'll blame them and tell them they should not have allowed their family to be placed in that situation. We can say the same for the Tutsi's as well..

I agree. I blame the jews of Germany for not getting out before the exterminations began. Many did and those were the smart ones.

But where are they meant to go? How are they meant to get out? Apply for visas or try to migrate elsewhere? Sheesh.. who'd have thunk it.

There are amnesty organizations that relocate people. Of course there is good ol' fashioned illegal immigration.

How? By choosing which parents you are born to? I didn't know that was possible.

By forcing my immediate family to move. Parents, grandparents, extended family etc... would be invited but would hold zero influence on my decision.

Not make the situation worse with blockades and embargoes.. I don't know, start treating them like human beings instead of shutting them up in concentration camp like zones and then attacking them indiscriminately. You know the saying that if you poke a dog once too many times, no matter how friendly it might appear, it will one day start biting back?

The dog was already biting you before it ever had an opportunity to "bite back". Did you miss that part. Either way, your actions would save many of thier lives at the cost of many lives in your geography. They might even gain enough strength to invade.

Instead of attempting to make the Palestinian people their friend, they have ensured a whole generation's worth of enemies with their actions. Good move.

"I know you want to destroy me but come on over and I'll be your friend". Find a person that wants you dead, hand them a gun, and invite them over for a friendly dinner.

And the people doing the killing? What of them? So we can absolve the Israelis of all blame in the matter because Hamas went into the civilian areas first? We can absolve them because to destroy the Hamas Government, democratically elected Government mind you, we shall just bomb the civilian areas and their homes until we drive Hamas out? Israel, as I've said before, had the opportunity to take the moral high ground int his whole debacle. But I guess they just can't seem to find it or don't know it actually exists. Much easier to just bomb the shit out of them, kill innocent civilians, a large chunk of them being children, and then blame Hamas for having been there in the first place. Yep.. much easier.

Israel is protecting its people. All they want are to not be attacked with weaponry and have made it clear that they will stop if the rockets stop. Hamas is keeping it going.

Did you also forget that Israel handed Gaza over to the Palestinians and then Hamas punished the action by attacking them?

I agree Israel's course is easier at this point.

While we're at it, we'll also blame the victims of this whole sorry saga, the civilians who are being bombed, by telling them they shouldn't have been there in the first place. Where they're meant to go, no one knows, but it's much easier to lay the blame on them.. make them the bad guys. *Sigh* now I can sleep so much better at night..

Haha, when your government is recognized across the world as a terrorist organization and they intend to destroy your neighbors (whom are vastly more powerful than you) then the writing's kind of on the well to get the fuck out. If you don't and you die then that really is your own fault.

 

[S.A.M.]

SAM, that ain't a one year old baby, and we don't have any information as to the fact behind the picture, now do we, only Hamas's head line.

Don't take my word for it. Watch it.

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

http://www.livestation.com/channels/3-al_jazeera_english

 

[Zakariya04]

i am deeply saddened by some of the posts here.. constant bitching and blaming..

the pitcures of the dead are equally disturbing and so r the ones with children holding guns etc.. but then again i wish i was pretty good with photoshop!!!!!!!??!?!!!

i am interested to know why no international reporters are allowed into Gaza (or they werent yesterday anyway accoridng to many news sources) Perhaps the israelis are concerned that they may be in harms way or is it cos of something else!!!! Shame they arent concerned about the UN relief workers who were killed and wounded though!!

anyway what solutions do we think will work???

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Don't take my word for it. Watch it.

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/

This site is talkiing about Jewish citizens who have been attacked from Lebanon, by rockets from Hezbulla.

Cambodia........

Opinion...........

http://www.livestation.com/channels/3-al_jazeera_english

And all I get here is a blank screen

VIEWING RESTRICTIONS
Due to copyright and distribution restrictions, not all viewers will be able to access all our video services.

 

[S.A.M.]

Thats interesting, is it being blocked for anyone else? I've never got that message. Is anyone in the US able to access al Jazeera online?

Did you try live streaming television? [you have to install the livestation software for this, get all television channels online, its free, for me at least]
http://www.livestation.com/channels/3-al_jazeera_english

Buffalo, it is live television, they show the news as they get it, not only Gaza, it is world news, but a lot of Gaza and Israel news. They interview politicians and civilians on both sides. They also show what is happening in Israel.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Thats interesting, is it being blocked for anyone else? I've never got that message. Is anyone in the US able to access al Jazeera online?

Did you try live streaming television? [you have to install the livestation software for this, get all television channels online, its free, for me at least]
http://www.livestation.com/channels/3-al_jazeera_english

well it isn't free in the U.S. and it is still a Hamas generated story.

 

[Zakariya04]

Thats interesting, is it being blocked for anyone else? I've never got that message. Is anyone in the US able to access al Jazeera online?

Did you try live streaming television? [you have to install the livestation software for this, get all television channels online, its free, for me at least]
http://www.livestation.com/channels/3-al_jazeera_english

apparently sam no Cable or satelite provider in the US (well the main ones anyway) have English aljazeera available.. then again i could be wrong........i usually am!!!!

 

[Buffalo Roam]

i am deeply saddened by some of the posts here.. constant bitching and blaming..

the pitcures of the dead are equally disturbing and so r the ones with children holding guns etc.. but then again i wish i was pretty good with photoshop!!!!!!!??!?!!!

i am interested to know why no international reporters are allowed into Gaza (or they werent yesterday anyway accoridng to many news sources) Perhaps the israelis are concerned that they may be in harms way or is it cos of something else!!!! Shame they arent concerned about the UN relief workers who were killed and wounded though!!

anyway what solutions do we think will work???

Could have to do with the last attack in Mumbi,

http://www.newsmeat.com/news/meat.p...&channelId=2951&buyerId=newsmeatcom&buid=3281

Handlers on phone ordered Mumbai gunmen to kill

Handlers on phone ordered Mumbai gunmen to kill, wanted to hear the gunfire

SAM DOLNICK
AP News

The attacks against iconic Mumbai targets were covered by news channels worldwide, allowing the handlers to use TV reports to guide the gunmen, the dossier says. The handlers warned when commandos roped down to the Jewish center from helicopters.

Six Jewish foreigners, including a rabbi and his wife, were killed inside the building.

 

[(Q)]

So, are you back here full time considering you went nowhere on that "other" forum and everyone found you to be little more than a minor annoyance? No one would agree with there other than Muslims? No one would take your bait?

So, now you offer more Islamic propaganda?

Was your goodbye thread merely another call for negative attention?

Sad indeed.

 

[GeoffP]

Except the victims of sniper fire are very young children

Sometimes, certainly. Deliberate - who knows? One would think a suicide bomber would have an even more precise target selection, given that they're usually on the same bus as their targets.

 

[StrawDog]

One could say the same of Native Americans as well as Native Australians etc.... I also think the argument could be made that it's still not all that fair and MAYBE, just MAYBE, if those peoples had the opportunity to own and rule over themselves WE may be in a similar position. IMM it wasn't fair they lost their land, it wasn't right the Jews lost theirs and it isn't right the Palestinians lost theirs. For indigenous people the hand of friendship and citizenry and equality has at least tried to be extended. The acceptance of wrongs committed long ago. The idea we are the same - equal.

Unfortunately we will never really know for sure.

I can not see how this can happen in the ME. Muslims and Jews almost think they are separated by blood. As if there is some sort of DNA they walls one off from the other. As if a Muslim can not become a Jew? The religion of one is in conflict with the other. The one says we are the chosen people and the other says no, WE, are the chosen people.

Yup. Of course Zionism was an European movement so there was no semitic culture or blood involved at all. This also illustrates the danger of religion and religious indoctrination.

Anyway....
Here's a first step solution. Muslims return the Temple Mount to Jews and allow them to recreate their Temple there. That's a big ask, but not really. It was the Jews holiest site, really, if Palestinian Muslims wanted to make that gesture I think it would go a LONG way. But they are never going to do that. So it goes back to what I said: Religion and Race. IMM insurmountable.

Yes. But they are NEVER going to cede the Temple Mount. There is a dangerous movement afoot to build (rebuild) the 3rd Temple of Solomon at any cost to fulfill Judaic prophecy. This is part of what the present conflict is about.

 

[GeoffP]

But why? The "third most holy site in islam"? Kind of cherry-picked, isn't it? It's the most important site in Judaism.

Give it all back, make access to the church and the mosque up there at the discretion of the Israeli authority. Fair is fair, for crying out loud. Should we call Mecca the "201st most holy site in Myuunitarianism" and demand a foothold? Of course not; it would be absurd.

 

[StrawDog]

Semites or not, other religions have always been subject to repressive religious laws in dar-al-islam. The enforcement of the dhimmi laws has been subject to some variation at the whim of the ruler, but these harsh and vicious laws remain, everpresent, to be instituted.

That is fair enough, albeit regrettable, but is also a significant feature of monotheism. A westerner living under Sharia today would be most uncomfortable.

Not exactly the most unbiased, source, you understand.

Perhaps. But overall an accurate representation of the situation.

Yes, I'm very familiar with the term. "Way less" does not translate to "treated them as human beings". I recommend looking up the events of the annual Nebi Musa marches in Jerusalem for an impression of one of the ways in which religious minorities, including Jews, were regularly under the thumb of the dominant religious authority. There were others, of course; the upshot is that without that political-religious outlook, there would never have been such military pressure on the early immigrant Jews, and no need for Haganah, Irgun, Stern or any of the rest.

The Jews re established their presence in Muslim Jerusalem at the end of the Mameluk period. So since the end of the 15th Century a small population of Jews have lived in Muslim Palestine without conflict until the rumblings created by the British Mandate in the 19th Century. The Palestinians could see the writing on the wall and that was the torch that lit the pyre. We all know what happened from thereafter.

Excellent.

Indeed.

 

[StrawDog]

The Palestinians have been picking this fight for a long time haven't they.

No, they did not choose to be displaced, The zealous Zionists and the British made the choice for them. The fight is a natural reaction, seen by all indigenous peoples when faced by a crushing oppression.

 

[spidergoat]

Don't forget the Arab nationalists, they also made the choice for their people, in many cases even encouraging people to leave, I guess so they could kill Jews without restraint. Thankfully, that never happened.

 

[StrawDog]

SAM,
The blockade is intended to stop the flow of weapons into Gaza. Food and medicine comes in those tunnels you mentioned, but so do materials for rockets. Hamas is only hurting it's own people, they must have a martyr complex. This isn't self defense, since the Israeli blockade is justified as self-defense from rockets in the first place.

The blockade is genocide. Any way you try to dress it up. The justified self defenece is Western and Israeli media hype. I cannot believe this is not obvious to clear thinking souls.

The absolute horror of this genocide is nothing in comparison to the silence and lack of outrage from the so called "democratic" Western world. Who are quick to jump on Russia`s back when they defend their citizens against an aggressor. Note the Russians kept civilian casualties to an absolute minimum.

This is the TRUE horror of what is taking pace in Gaza today. (and in the last couple of years) The complicit acceptance by the West of human tragedy in Gaza.

 

[spidergoat]

You don't know what genocide is. The Romans, Assyrians, or Carthaginians would have sacked Gaza killing every single man, woman, and child. The Assyrians would then have salted the Earth, diverted a river over their cities, and walled the captured into their palaces, or nailed their skins on their city walls. Even for a western army, considering the huge number of Israeli attacks, the civilian death count is rather small. I don't see any other way the Israelis could end Hamas attacks. Lifting the blockade would allow weapons into the region, leading to even more attacks. What is Israel supposed to do? Hamas doesn't want to comprimise, they want it all.

 

[leopold]

So, now you offer more Islamic propaganda?

you should have seen her in the "stun guns and cops" thread.
she was pulling out all the stops in that one.
wheelchair victims, 14 year olds, pregnant women, old ladies, blacks, and retards.

 

[StrawDog]

You don't know what genocide is. The Romans, Assyrians, or Carthaginians would have sacked Gaza killing every single man, woman, and child. The Assyrians would then have salted the Earth, diverted a river over their cities, and walled the captured into their palaces, or nailed their skins on their city walls. Even for a western army, considering the huge number of Israeli attacks, the civilian death count is rather small. I don't see any other way the Israelis could end Hamas attacks. Lifting the blockade would allow weapons into the region, leading to even more attacks. What is Israel supposed to do? Hamas doesn't want to comprimise, they want it all.

I know what genocide is.

The UN Relief and Works Agency suspended its aid after reporting that one of its drivers had been killed in an Israeli attack on a delivery convoy at a border crossing.

The International Committee of the Red Cross reported finding "shocking" scenes during the first lull, on Wednesday, including four children, weak and emaciated, next to the bodies of their mothers. In a rare and sharply critical statement, it said it believed that "the Israeli military failed to meet its obligation under international humanitarian law to care for and evacuate the wounded."

(iht.com/articles/2009/01/08/mideast/mideast.php)

Sadly, I think you are naive to the reality in Palestine.

 

[(Q)]

anyway what solutions do we think will work???

How about this group:

"The Free Muslims Coalition is a nonprofit organization made up of American Muslims and Arabs of all backgrounds who feel that religious violence and terrorism have not been fully rejected by the Muslim community in the post 9-11 era.

The Free Muslims was created to eliminate broad base support for Islamic extremism and terrorism and to strengthen secular democratic institutions in the Middle East and the Muslim World by supporting Islamic reformation efforts.

The Free Muslims promotes a modern secular interpretation of Islam which is peace-loving, democracy-loving and compatible with other faiths and beliefs."

http://www.freemuslims.org/about/

And their solutions:

"To summarize, the Free Muslims are asking the Palestinians to reach out to their Israeli and Jewish partners and say the following:

"We understand why the state of Israel is important to you. We are fully aware of the persecution that Jews suffered throughout history and the necessity of having a safe heaven for Jews. We also understand that Jews have historical and religious ties to Israel/Palestine. We believe that every Jew shall have the right to move to Israel and become a citizen immediately. We also welcome Jews to visit and to reside in the West Bank and Gaza. We want the Palestinians and Israelis to live together as neighbors, friends and countrymen. In return, what we want is freedom, liberty and equality for the Palestinians. Will you meet us half way?"

The Free Muslims are also asking Israelis and Jews to reach out to their Palestinians Partners and say the following:

"We understand why Palestine is important to you. We are fully aware of the suffering the Palestinians have experience over the last 100 years and the necessity of having a safe heaven for Palestinians. We also understand that Palestinians have historical and religious ties to Israel/Palestine. We believe that every Palestinian shall have the right to move to Palestine and become a citizen immediately. We also welcome the Palestinians to visit and to reside in Israel. We want the Palestinians and Israelis to live together as neighbors, friends and countrymen. In return, what we want is permanent security, liberty, equality and the total freedom to be Jews. Will you meet us half way?"

http://www.freemuslims.org/issues/israel-palestine.php