This is too much to bear anymore!!!

StrawDog said:
Sadly, I think you are naive to the reality in Palestine. :(
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What if I'm not naive, and just realize that Israel is left with no palatable choices. They could kill all the Palestinians, but are obviously not doing it. Hamas militants deliberately hide among civilians, which is why terrorism is so hard to fight militarily without looking like cold-hearted bastards. Israel has decided that loosing a PR battle is less important than ending the threat that Hamas poses to their own people. Hamas is probably loving that they now have more dead baby pictures to show off as recruitment tools.
 
spidergoat said:
What if I'm not naive, and just realize that Israel is left with no palatable choices. They could kill all the Palestinians, but are obviously not doing it. Hamas militants deliberately hide among civilians, which is why terrorism is so hard to fight militarily without looking like cold-hearted bastards. Israel has decided that loosing a PR battle is less important than ending the threat that Hamas poses to their own people. Hamas is probably loving that they now have more dead baby pictures to show off as recruitment tools.
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Hamas, the democratically elected government in Gaza is certainly not loving this horrific photo op. This statement reflects your total and utter lack of empathy and compassion for the victims in this conflict. :(

Terrorism is the new Communism. The bogey man. Israel and the US are the biggest terror organizations on the planet today. Israel has been inflicting terror on the Palestinians, stealing their territory and holding them hostage for over 60 years. An oppressed and humiliated people WILL rise up and fight back. What in the world do you expect? The Israeli response is utterly disproportionate and is a clear attempt at genocide. Please read beyond the Western media for a clearer picture of what has, and is occurring.
 
Straw, it isn't genocide by any classical definition. If you want to call it oppression, please do so. But not genocide. Genocide is what the triumphant Arab armies would have done to the Jews in Palestine had they won, either in 1921, 1936, 1948, or at any other time, including today. I saw a pro-Palestinian rally with women in Michigan or Florida (or "Florigan") screaming that pro-Israelis on the other side of the street "needed to get into the ovens". So - the Palestinian lot is quite hard, but what is the alternative should Hamas get their wish? That would seem obvious.

By the by: yes, dead children are indeed a Hamas photo opportunity. This is not in any serious doubt. They admit freely to their use of women and children as human shields: why would this be, do you think? Does it suggest no correlation at all?
 
GeoffP said:
Straw, it isn't genocide by any classical definition. If you want to call it oppression, please do so. But not genocide. Genocide is what the triumphant Arab armies would have done to the Jews in Palestine had they won, either in 1921, 1936, 1948, or at any other time, including today. I saw a pro-Palestinian rally with women in Michigan or Florida (or "Florigan") screaming that pro-Israelis on the other side of the street "needed to get into the ovens". So - the Palestinian lot is quite hard, but what is the alternative should Hamas get their wish? That would seem obvious.
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Horrific oppression perhaps then? When civilian casualties reach the present roughly 6 to 1 ratio, what do you call that? And what do you call this?

"This is a shocking incident," said Pierre Wettach, ICRC chief for Israel and the Palestinian territories.

"The Israeli military must have been aware of the situation but did not assist the wounded. Neither did they make it possible for us or the Palestinian Red Crescent to assist the wounded," Wettach said.

The agency said it believed Israel had breached international humanitarian law in the incident.
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(http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053877.html)

By the by: yes, dead children are indeed a Hamas photo opportunity. This is not in any serious doubt. They admit freely to their use of women and children as human shields: why would this be, do you think? Does it suggest no correlation at all?
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It suggests a desperate struggle by a desperate people. :(
 
It can't be fair, the presence of a militia is intimidating. The people aren't necessarily voting for who they want to be in power, but for who is already more powerful, like when Saddam won his own fake election in Iraq.
 
Hamas has overwhelming support in Gaza. Even the West Bank is now rooting for Hamas.

Anyone who thinks they are a "militia" is only in denial. There are 20,000 members of Hamas and now make up the middle class, such as it is, in Palestine. Many have western educations and are professionals deeply committed to the nationalistic movement.

I bet Fatah will be merged into Hamas after this. All the Arab street is supporting Hamas, they just don't show the demonstrations in western media. Ironically, Israel may end up bringing in the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, solidify the Islamist party in Turkey and now, even Islamists in Lebanon and Jordan. Who would have thunk it? The Saudis are going to be very very lonely.
 
...Which was probably the goal of Hamas- provoke Israel into a military incursion so as to radicalize the rest of the Palestinians. I know they are popular, but it's not a Democracy by any stretch.
 
spidergoat said:
It can't be fair, the presence of a militia is intimidating. The people aren't necessarily voting for who they want to be in power, but for who is already more powerful, like when Saddam won his own fake election in Iraq.
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The people voted for the Party that could deliver them from oppression. The militia was perhaps a selling point.
 
spidergoat said:
...Which was probably the goal of Hamas- provoke Israel into a military incursion so as to radicalize the rest of the Palestinians. I know they are popular, but it's not a Democracy by any stretch.
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At present, its the only popularly elected government in the Middle East.
 
of course spider, it would have nothing to do with people being fed up with being staved, watching their children die from lack of health care ect. No of course isreal is an innocent bystander right?:rolleyes:
 
S.A.M. said:
I bet Fatah will be merged into Hamas after this. All the Arab street is supporting Hamas, they just don't show the demonstrations in western media. Ironically, Israel may end up bringing in the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, solidify the Islamist party in Turkey and now, even Islamists in Lebanon and Jordan. Who would have thunk it? The Saudis are going to be very very lonely.
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Indeed. The signs are already beginning to appear. If the occupation continues, the chances get better. But at what a cost. :(
 
It was either that or let 1.5 million people starve. As it is, with >700 slaughtered, people can barely bring themselves to care. I think in this, ie the decision to continue the rockets until the blockade is lifted, Hamas made the right decision. As they said quite clearly, no justice for Palestinians equals no peace for Israel.

When I think of starving injured kids who have been traumatised by the attack, being amputated without anaesthsia because the Israelis cannot be fricking bothered to make the meds available, my blood boils like lava and I can see a red mist in front of my eyes.
 
Asguard said:
of course spider, it would have nothing to do with people being fed up with being staved, watching their children die from lack of health care ect. No of course isreal is an innocent bystander right?:rolleyes:
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Their "elected" leaders import weapons into Gaza to kill Israelis. That's why they don't have health care or food. They care more about land than their childrens lives.
 
Because its so easy to get food and water and meds for 1.5 million people everyday through tunnels. The Israeli incursions warrant defense. You cannot blame the victim for resisting their oppression.

Didn't the ZOB do the same in Warsaw? Everyone on one cup of soup a day and they were smuggling weapons to fight the Germans.
 
S.A.M. said:
When I think of starving injured kids who have been traumatised by the attack, being amputated without anaesthsia because the Israelis cannot be fricking bothered to make the meds available, my blood boils like lava and I can see a red mist in front of my eyes.
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That's probably a result of going "cold turkey." :rolleyes:
 
S.A.M. said:
Because its so easy to get food and water and meds for 1.5 million people everyday through tunnels. The Israeli incursions warrant defense. You cannot blame the victim for resisting their oppression.

Didn't the ZOB do the same in Warsaw? Everyone on one cup of soup a day and they were smuggling weapons to fight the Germans.
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The Germans were trying to kill them. The Israelis only want them to stop killing Israelis.
 
S.A.M. said:
When I think of starving injured kids who have been traumatised by the attack, being amputated without anaesthsia because the Israelis cannot be fricking bothered to make the meds available, my blood boils like lava and I can see a red mist in front of my eyes.
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This is truly horrific. Almost matched by the Worlds apathy to condemn this outrage against humanity. :)
 
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