This is too much to bear anymore!!!

[pjdude1219]

http://balagan.org.uk/war/ai/weapons.htm#Tanks 
a partial listing of weaponary used in the arab and Israel conflicts due the research on the things and when the were used. hell in the first war most of the arab tanks were from WW1

 

[Bells]

children of Gaza

(Warning, images may offend some with delicate sensibilities or who wish to excuse what was done to these children).

And here is another child from Gaza..

And another..

And more..

Does that make you sleep better at night?

Who would blame this man for hating the country that did this to his child? I certainly wouldn't blame him for wanting revenge. Would you? This one made me sob. I have kids around that age.

I could understand why these men would want to join Hamas.. If they were my kids, nothing would stop me from exacting revenge.

Cardinal Martino, president of the Vatican's Council for Justice and Peace, made the comment to Italian online site Il Sussidiario.

"Defenceless populations are always the ones who pay," he said.

"Look at the conditions in Gaza: more and more, it resembles a big concentration camp."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7817019.stm

I won't bother to point out the irony of it all..

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Spock:

Lovely play toys, those kids have, a AKM, and a 122mm Grad, I wonder what the result of a stray static voltage to the Grod would be, and would Israel be blamed?

The ignition to the motor is by electric spark.

I really love al the pictures of Palestinians kids, where the caption state that they have play guns in their hand, I laugh my ass off, because I know and can see the difference between a play toy and a real gun, or RPG, and a mock up, and in most cases those aren't toys.

Interesting article on Hamas and Fatah and the indoctrination of Children in to martyrdom.


http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=EC938B12-F1AE-4FEB-A134-80F4BDBD4EA8

 

[Buffalo Roam]

(Warning, images may offend some with delicate sensibilities or who wish to excuse what was done to these children).

And here is another child from Gaza..

And another..

And more..

Does that make you sleep better at night?

Who would blame this man for hating the country that did this to his child? I certainly wouldn't blame him for wanting revenge. Would you? This one made me sob. I have kids around that age.

I could understand why these men would want to join Hamas.. If they were my kids, nothing would stop me from exacting revenge.



I won't bother to point out the irony of it all..

Well then let Hamas stop launching rockets.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

I could understand why these men would want to join Hamas.. If they were my kids, nothing would stop me from exacting revenge.

Would you have the capacity to understand who put your child in harms way:

1) Hamas
2) Iran and other Hamas backers.
3) Israel
4) You

Where would you exact your revenge? The lazy answer would be Israel, after all they "pulled the trigger" and it's easy to gain power against them by joining Hamas. The hard answer would be Hamas because the only way you could get power over them would be to rally with other civilians... which is hard. The powerless answer would be Iran and other Hamas backers... the untouchable men behind the curtains pulling the strings. And the correct answer is you... for being stupid enough to raise children in a hostile environment.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

http://balagan.org.uk/war/ai/weapons.htm#Tanks 
a partial listing of weaponary used in the arab and Israel conflicts due the research on the things and when the were used. hell in the first war most of the arab tanks were from WW1

pj, you need a long study of what those numbers and nomenclature mean, The Arabs weren't using WWI tanks.

Yes some of the home built's were crude, but the Israelis weren't any better.

But much of the Arab Forces in the 1948 war had purpose built tanks, in first line condition, and not bought and assembled from scrap yards in Italy.

96----Israel---population 7,373,000----December 31, 2008


16----Egypt---population---75,737,000-----January 8, 2009

18----Iran-----pop[ulation--70,495,782------November 2006

39----Iraq-----population---28,993,000

54----Syria----population---19,929,000

104---Jordan--population----5,924,000

Lets see, 7,373,000 Jews against, 201,078,000 Arabs.

 

[ElectricFetus]

Knowing the Palestinians half of those children were placed in arms way for just that kind of imagery. The Palestinians specifically place children arms way for propaganda proposes, its all good for them they can just fart out more.

 

[sly1]

Would you have the capacity to understand who put your child in harms way:

1) Hamas
2) Iran and other Hamas backers.
3) Israel
4) You

Where would you exact your revenge? The lazy answer would be Israel, after all they "pulled the trigger" and it's easy to gain power against them by joining Hamas. The hard answer would be Hamas because the only way you could get power over them would be to rally with other civilians... which is hard. The powerless answer would be Iran and other Hamas backers... the untouchable men behind the curtains pulling the strings. And the correct answer is you... for being stupid enough to raise children in a hostile environment.

I find that last part a bit.....arrogant

are you saying the victims of 911 were at fault cuz they were stupid enough to work in a country that is likely to be attack by terrorists? Their deaths are thier fault for working in a high profile terrorist target?

No more than you are at fault for being stupid enough to think your raising your children in a perfect world.

That logic you used at the end is a bit fkd

 

[pjdude1219]

pj, you need a long study of what those numbers and nomenclature mean, The Arabs weren't using WWI tanks.

um the renault ft-17. you know what that 17 stands for 1917 late world war 1. unless of course there was some sort of temporal anomaly your wrong

Yes some of the home built's were crude, but the Israelis weren't any better.

a tank that is built to engage hard and soft targets is better than one designed solely for soft targets. The hotchkiss h-39 was the main Israeli tank. The FT-17 was the lebenese tank. the tank the eygptian used were the mark 4 the locust and the matitilda.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotchkiss_H35#The_Char_l.C3.A9ger_mod.C3.A8le_1935_H_modifi.C3.A9_39
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FT-17
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Tank_Mk_VI
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M22_Locust
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matilda_tank

But much of the Arab Forces in the 1948 war had purpose built tanks, in first line condition, and not bought and assembled from scrap yards in Italy.

the main Israeli tank was purchased directly from france. that is hardly from the scrap heap in italy

96----Israel---population 7,373,000----December 31, 2008


16----Egypt---population---75,737,000-----January 8, 2009

18----Iran-----pop[ulation--70,495,782------November 2006

39----Iraq-----population---28,993,000

54----Syria----population---19,929,000

104---Jordan--population----5,924,000

Lets see, 7,373,000 Jews against, 201,078,000 Arabs.

lets see civilian population which is irrelevant to troops fielded. Plus my assertion for outnumbering their opponents does have a caveat you might not have know about.( I do not think you were involved in the debate when I orginally made the claim so it is unfair of me to assume you knew the complete ins and outs surrounding it) It is only for the first war the 48 one.



Why must you delibrately be dishonest and misrepresent people arguments?

 

[Bells]

Would you have the capacity to understand who put your child in harms way:

1) Hamas
2) Iran and other Hamas backers.
3) Israel
4) You

Where would you exact your revenge? The lazy answer would be Israel, after all they "pulled the trigger" and it's easy to gain power against them by joining Hamas. The hard answer would be Hamas because the only way you could get power over them would be to rally with other civilians... which is hard. The powerless answer would be Iran and other Hamas backers... the untouchable men behind the curtains pulling the strings. And the correct answer is you... for being stupid enough to raise children in a hostile environment.

Do you think the parents of those children are able to think rationally? What if all three of your children were killed by a direct attack from an Israeli tank or helicopter gunship or plane. Do you think you'd be able to sit there while cradling their dead bodies and think.. 'hmm.. well the reason they bombed our house is because Hamas were firing rockets in the area.. and Hamas is really supported by Iran, so I should hate them more..'..? Would you sit there and think 'well, it's really my fault for having children and staying in our house during this incur *cough* invasion *cough* sion, and it's really my faults that all the borders are closed by Israel and I can't get them out..'.. Bring on abortions and infanticide to make sure no child is brought up in a hostile area.. just so Israel does not face the condemnation it deserves for targeting innocent civilians to weed out a few Hamas? Or would you lay blame on the people who directly targeted your home and blew it apart, killing your three children? Decisions, decisions.. Hmmm.. How do you think the parents of those children are going to rationalise the deaths of their children?

Regardless of Hamas' despicable behaviour, it does not excuse Israel's targeting civilians in order to kill the Hamas hiding amongst them. There is absolutely no justification, moral or otherwise, that could excuse the direct targeting of civilians in order to kill a few scumbags who may be hiding amongst them.

Where would I exact revenge? I'd find out who fired the damn bomb, who pressed the button, who gave the order.. then I would simply hunt them down and exact pain on them like they have never suffered in their lives. But then again, that's just me.

Well then let Hamas stop launching rockets.

Or better yet, Israel can stop deliberately targeting civilian areas because some Hamas may be hiding there. Israel can simply stop killing children. Sounds about fair, don't you think?

Knowing the Palestinians half of those children were placed in arms way for just that kind of imagery. The Palestinians specifically place children arms way for propaganda proposes, its all good for them they can just fart out more.

"Fart out more"? It is astounding how your argument ends with that comment.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

I find that last part a bit.....arrogant

are you saying the victims of 911 were at fault cuz they were stupid enough to work in a country that is likely to be attack by terrorists? Their deaths are thier fault for working in a high profile terrorist target?

No more than you are at fault for being stupid enough to think your raising your children in a perfect world.

That logic you used at the end is a bit fkd

The basis of logic is comparison.

SCENARIO A:
You are a U.S. citizen. You are working for a large financial institution. You are protected by law, law enforcment, human resources, insurance, and can move about freely and exercise a HUGE array of personal freedoms. A terrorist hijacks a plane and rams it into your office building. You die.

SCENARIO B:
You are a Gazan citizen. You are working for the government and a rival government takes over who also happens to be on the list of known terrorist organizations in the world. They kill the previous governments law enforcers and make it clear that they intend to destroy your closest geographical neighbor, whom is vastly more powerful. All your neighbors cut off relations with you; thus, restricting your movement. Your freedoms are negligible and being punished by your government, whom is stockpiling weapons and militants next to your house, is an every-day concern Your government then begins attacking a neighbor and they respond. You die.

Which scenario would you say portrays an environment significantly more hostile than the other? Can you see the difference?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Do you think the parents of those children are able to think rationally?

I suspect if they thought rationally they wouldn't be in their predicament.

What if all three of your children were killed by a direct attack from an Israeli tank or helicopter gunship or plane.

I would be very upset that my children were killed by an Israeli force after I had amnesty international place my family in another geography.

Do you think you'd be able to sit there while cradling their dead bodies and think.. 'hmm.. well the reason they bombed our house is because Hamas were firing rockets in the area.. and Hamas is really supported by Iran, so I should hate them more..'..? Would you sit there and think 'well, it's really my fault for having children and staying in our house during this incur *cough* invasion *cough* sion, and it's really my faults that all the borders are closed by Israel and I can't get them out..'..

I would not allow my family to be in that situation.

Bring on abortions and infanticide to make sure no child is brought up in a hostile area.. just so Israel does not face the condemnation it deserves for targeting innocent civilians to weed out a few Hamas? Or would you lay blame on the people who directly targeted your home and blew it apart, killing your three children? Decisions, decisions.. Hmmm.. How do you think the parents of those children are going to rationalise the deaths of their children?

Let's say there was a foreign land close to your house and the governing inhabitants begin firing rockets in your area non-stop becuase they have a charter to destroy you. Your car is destroyed, your husband is in pieces, and your dog is peeing on the carpet. You also happen to be an influencer in your government and have learned that the foreign government is quite large and doing all their rocket firing from densly populated areas.

What do you do?

Regardless of Hamas' despicable behaviour, it does not excuse Israel's targeting civilians in order to kill the Hamas hiding amongst them. There is absolutely no justification, moral or otherwise, that could excuse the direct targeting of civilians in order to kill a few scumbags who may be hiding amongst them.

It's more than a few scumbags. It's the entire government... but even so, what would you do?

Where would I exact revenge? I'd find out who fired the damn bomb, who pressed the button, who gave the order.. then I would simply hunt them down and exact pain on them like they have never suffered in their lives. But then again, that's just me.

Then you would take the easy option. Hamas knows that most people would which is why they get their civilians killed intentionally.

 

[Crunchy Cat]

...
...
...
In either case, the blockade will be lifted, which is Hamas' goal for this war. Its already won.

Care to place a wager on that outcome?

 

[S.A.M.]

This discussion is so ridiculous I just have to give my two bits.

Anyone who is not watching al Jazeera has no clue as to what is really happening.

Why? Because they don't see the interviews with Hamas and their supporters, they don't hear the Arab street opinion. No one in the Arab world considers Hamas a terrorist group [except their puppet leaders, who are rapidly losing the battle with public opinion] and everyone knows why they are throwing the rockets and refusing a ceasefire.

Because after two years of starvation and blockade of medicines so severe that amputations are currently being carried out without anaesthesia, their primary and most important goal is to open the borders and lift the crippling blockade.

They will keep on throwing rockets until Israel admits that there is NO military solution to this conflict and that Hamas will not accept a ceasefire without the additional concessions they demanded earlier, i.e lift the blockade.

Gaza has been without water for the last 5 days and the Israelis are bombing the tunnels through which food, water and medicines are supplied by Hamas to the people of Gaza. People are being forced to lie buried alive under rubble for four days and bleed for over 80 hours because the IDF won't let the medics in. In fact medics have been killed by IDF snipers. Oh they know whom to blame alright.

After all, this is what they see. And you don't.

I see only two outcomes from this war

1. Israel will be forced to occupy Gaza
2. Hamas will lead the PLO.

In either case, the blockade will be lifted, which is Hamas' goal for this war. Its already won.

 

[iceaura]

Let's say there was a foreign land close to your house and the governing inhabitants begin firing rockets in your area non-stop becuase they have a charter to destroy you. Your car is destroyed, your husband is in pieces, and your dog is peeing on the carpet. You also happen to be an influencer in your government and have learned that the foreign government is quite large and doing all their rocket firing from densly populated areas.

What do you do?

You could start by pulling your head out of your ass and realizing that they are not firing those rockets "because they have a charter to destroy you".

That may lead you to the possibility of remembering there was once a "cease-fire" agreement, and you agreed to do something - what was it - - oh yeah: lift a blockade. Maybe if you return to that agreement, apologize for failing your obligations under it, and fulfill them, things will start to improve.

It's worth a try - something new might get new results. And if the alternative is making yourself into an odious monster of a militarized State, that bombs children from the air and oversees a world of enemies and concentration camps, well that would be a last resort, eh?

btw: which of the half dozen or so people killed by Hamas rockets does that little scene refer to?

 

[Michael]

Nebi Musa marches in Jerusalem

One thing that always fascinated me was how Muslims are perfectly happy to move to America or Australia and live on conquered land administered by the victors. Yet, it is somehow wrong when these same peoples, namely the Europeans/English, allowed Jews into Palestine?

I once put this question to a Muslim and he said it was his religious duty to spread the freedom of Islam to all parts of the globe. Of course, no one asked the indigenous people if they WANTED a Muslim (or anyone else) here spreading the word.

meh....

 

[Mr.Spock]

AL Jazeera in Naharia, Israel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfSh63A69ik

 

[Enmos]

This discussion is so ridiculous I just have to give my two bits.

Anyone who is not watching al Jazeera has no clue as to what is really happening.

Why? Because they don't see the interviews with Hamas and their supporters, they don't hear the Arab street opinion. No one in the Arab world considers Hamas a terrorist group [except their puppet leaders, who are rapidly losing the battle with public opinion] and everyone knows why they are throwing the rockets and refusing a ceasefire.

Because after two years of starvation and blockade of medicines so severe that amputations are currently being carried out without anaesthesia, their primary and most important goal is to open the borders and lift the crippling blockade.

They will keep on throwing rockets until Israel admits that there is NO military solution to this conflict and that Hamas will not accept a ceasefire without the additional concessions they demanded earlier, i.e lift the blockade.

Gaza has been without water for the last 5 days and the Israelis are bombing the tunnels through which food, water and medicines are supplied by Hamas to the people of Gaza. People are being forced to lie buried alive under rubble for four days and bleed for over 80 hours because the IDF won't let the medics in. In fact medics have been killed by IDF snipers. Oh they know whom to blame alright.

After all, this is what they see. And you don't.

I see only two outcomes from this war

1. Israel will be forced to occupy Gaza
2. Hamas will lead the PLO.

In either case, the blockade will be lifted, which is Hamas' goal for this war. Its already won.

Hehe.. you just couldn't control yourself, could you

Welcome back ?

 

[Bells]

I suspect if they thought rationally they wouldn't be in their predicament.

Who? The parents of those children? Yes, it is so much easier to blame the victims, isn't it? I guess we can also blame the Jews in Europe when they were rounded up and placed in concentration camps and slaughtered by the Nazis.. we can tell them they shouldn't have been there.. the Jewish victims who lost their children and whole families.. we'll blame them and tell them they should not have allowed their family to be placed in that situation. We can say the same for the Tutsi's as well..

But where are they meant to go? How are they meant to get out? Apply for visas or try to migrate elsewhere? Sheesh.. who'd have thunk it.

I would not allow my family to be in that situation.

How? By choosing which parents you are born to? I didn't know that was possible.

Let's say there was a foreign land close to your house and the governing inhabitants begin firing rockets in your area non-stop becuase they have a charter to destroy you. Your car is destroyed, your husband is in pieces, and your dog is peeing on the carpet. You also happen to be an influencer in your government and have learned that the foreign government is quite large and doing all their rocket firing from densly populated areas.

What do you do?

Not make the situation worse with blockades and embargoes.. I don't know, start treating them like human beings instead of shutting them up in concentration camp like zones and then attacking them indiscriminately. You know the saying that if you poke a dog once too many times, no matter how friendly it might appear, it will one day start biting back?

Instead of attempting to make the Palestinian people their friend, they have ensured a whole generation's worth of enemies with their actions. Good move.

It's more than a few scumbags. It's the entire government... but even so, what would you do?

I think I already covered that above.

Then you would take the easy option. Hamas knows that most people would which is why they get their civilians killed intentionally.

And the people doing the killing? What of them? So we can absolve the Israelis of all blame in the matter because Hamas went into the civilian areas first? We can absolve them because to destroy the Hamas Government, democratically elected Government mind you, we shall just bomb the civilian areas and their homes until we drive Hamas out? Israel, as I've said before, had the opportunity to take the moral high ground int his whole debacle. But I guess they just can't seem to find it or don't know it actually exists. Much easier to just bomb the shit out of them, kill innocent civilians, a large chunk of them being children, and then blame Hamas for having been there in the first place. Yep.. much easier.

While we're at it, we'll also blame the victims of this whole sorry saga, the civilians who are being bombed, by telling them they shouldn't have been there in the first place. Where they're meant to go, no one knows, but it's much easier to lay the blame on them.. make them the bad guys. *Sigh* now I can sleep so much better at night..

 

[chuuush]

Claim 8: Hamas uses civilians as human shields.

he human rights group Amnesty claims that Israelis are also using civilians as human shields.

Malcolm Smart, its Middle East director, said:

Our sources in Gaza report that Israeli soldiers have entered and taken up positions in a number of Palestinian homes, forcing families to stay in a ground floor room while they use the rest of their house as a military base and sniper position. This clearly increases the risk to the Palestinian families concerned and means they are effectively being used as human shields.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2009/jan/08/gaza-israel

Anybody who makes such a claim is either directly on the Israeli part (to justify their crimes) or a total shithead. How can a group whose only aim of resistance is to defend its people and its land use the same people as human shields. But, on the contrary I'm sure that there are many Palestinian civilians who are ready to die defending the Hamas fighters.