There is 'meaning and purpose to life'

[felix]

Re: There is a key to the "Thanx" thing

Originally posted by tiassa


Felix: re: His Holy Servant

One of the points I try to hammer as mercilessly as possible is that by most accepted Christians schemes, the nature of the Devil is an impossibility, for it either limits God in a manner unacceptable to the faithful, or places evil as a responsibility of God's Will. If we start with the Christian notion that God is in full control of the Universe, and nothing is unknown to him, it means that the Devil does his work as a result of God's Will....
....

But since nothing happens without God's Will, I tend to push the Holy Servant angle: Satan has a definite part in God's scheme; the question is one of redemption.

thanx,
Tiassa

Did you ever have a Christian go,"You know you're right."? Or do they just put their hands over their ears and start humming.

I'm sorry. That wasn't really fair. I have to admit that I've met christians-that-think. The problem is that I haven't met many, and I can't help but think that they're not thinking ENOUGH. And that's usually because they're afraid to question their faith, even in thought. The vast majority of my kin are afflicted with christianity and sometimes it really P's me off.

But as I'm sure you know, a little THC goes a long way with anger management.

 

[Deadwood]

I'm a little behind the times. Today I come to this site and its littered with a new buzz word/acronym THC. What is THC. Is it one of Dr Phils new buzzwords like 'closure'?

 

[tony1]

Originally posted by Deadwood
I'm a little behind the times. Today I come to this site and its littered with a new buzz word/acronym THC. What is THC. Is it one of Dr Phils new buzzwords like 'closure'?

THC is tetrahydrocannabinol, the active ingredient in marijuana.

Since tiassa likes and uses hashish, I refer to it as THC so that it covers any form of marijuana.

Originally posted by felix
"So, if you make a chair, that chair is part of you?"
Well, yes, actually.

Wow, a weird form of boundary confusion.

Is the devil not Lucifer?

You may be confusing the issue.
You may be thinking of the following...
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
(Ezekiel 28:13,14, KJV).

Satan was already a serpent in the Garden of Eden...
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
(Genesis 3:1, KJV).

That's supposed to tell me what? That god doesn't want to shoulder the blame for his own creations?

It was supposed to tell you that your idea of the devil is off a little.
You said he was the first angel, loved above all of the others.
This verse tells you that he was a murderer from the beginning.

Who or what doesn't follow who or what?

Your reasoning is a little weak.
God creating evil doesn't make him evil, any more than you creating a chair makes you a chair.
Altho, as you've previously indicated, you can't tell the difference between you and a chair.

Yes, I notice the opposites. Very neatly done. Albeit, without a shred of proof to bolster it. Even when I was very young and forced to go to church I didn't believe things just because someone else said it was so. They never liked me at church.

You need proof that good and evil are opposites?

So your saying that evil is temporary and good is eternal? How can you have good without evil? The concepts define each other. "You can't have a light without a dark to stick it in".

Your logic fails again.
Why don't you try to define temporary using logic like that.
According to your line of reasoning, temporary would have to be permanent to have any meaning.

Originally posted by tiassa
One of the points I try to hammer as mercilessly as possible is that by most accepted Christians schemes, the nature of the Devil is an impossibility, for it either limits God in a manner unacceptable to the faithful, or places evil as a responsibility of God's Will.

Hammer away.

The nature of the devil isn't an impossibility any more than dark is impossible because light exists.
In any case, the existence of evil is God's idea.

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(Isaiah 45:7, KJV).

He also tells us not to do evil...
Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell for evermore.
(Psalms 37:27, KJV).

Of course, fighting against most accepted Christian schemes is a good thing, since "accepted" usually means "accepted by the unbelieving," anyway.

 

[felix]

Originally posted by tony1

You may be confusing the issue.
You may be thinking of the following...
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
(Ezekiel 28:13,14, KJV).

Satan was already a serpent in the Garden of Eden...
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
(Genesis 3:1, KJV).

Nope. Wasn't thinking of that. I was asking: Are Lucifer and the devil the same being? lucifer and satan? satan and the devil?

It was supposed to tell you that your idea of the devil is off a little.
You said he was the first angel, loved above all of the others.
This verse tells you that he was a murderer from the beginning.

The question stands. Is lucifer the one cast out of heavan to become satan?

Your reasoning is a little weak.
God creating evil doesn't make him evil, any more than you creating a chair makes you a chair.
Altho, as you've previously indicated, you can't tell the difference between you and a chair.

I said god was BOTH good and evil. god is supposed to be everything, everywhere, all the time. So, yes, he must be at least partly evil along with partly everything else. And I said that making a chair makes the CHAIR part of ME. I didn't say it makes me a chair. And as far as my reasoning being weak goes, I'm not sure I'm convinced that there could BE reasoning strong enough to make YOU understand it.

You need proof that good and evil are opposites?

no, I can accept that at face value, but that's not all your little ditty said. Surely you're capable of realizing that.

Your logic fails again.
Why don't you try to define temporary using logic like that.
According to your line of reasoning, temporary would have to be permanent to have any meaning.

Again, you're avoiding answering the question. I'll ask again, and this time I'll leave out the extra commentary............

Are you saying that good is eternal and that evil is temporary? And if so,...How can you have good without evil?

Is that a little easier for you? no distracting logic to start your synapses firing at random?

Oh, and anyone else reading, I'm taking bets as to whether or not tony actually even ATTEMPTS to answer a question this time. I'm personally betting against you answering, tony, 'cause that would be just a liiittle too frightening an endeavor for you. I'm giving you a wide open shot to actually prove me wrong. All the only price you would pay is to just ATTEMPT to answer a question. It would be even better if you actually answered ALL of those questions, but I don't want to get too far out there. I dare ya.

 

[dan1123]

You know, I have this pet-peeve about the King James Bible quotes. First, it's really hard to understand since the English language changed so much, and we have newer translations today which utilize today's English. Secondly, the manuscripts that the King James Version used are not as accurate as the modern translations due to the research done since then.

But anyway, on to the real subject at hand:

Did you ever have a Christian go,"You know you're right."? Or do they just put their hands over their ears and start humming.

Actually I think I did once to tiassa, or maybe it was tiassa to me or both...

...but Satan himself? He's expelled, as I understand it.

I thought this happened in revelation which would make it some time in the future, but I'm not sure...

Are you saying that good is eternal and that evil is temporary? And if so,...How can you have good without evil?

Think of good and evil as temperature, with good as heat, and evil as cold. If you were transported to a planet where everything was equally as hot, they would have no concept of cold. But you would comment on how hot it was around because you had experienced being cold in the past. After a while though, assuming you were stuck there, temperature itself would slip away from your mind as you got used to the new planet.

That's enough for now

 

[tony1]

Originally posted by felix
Are Lucifer and the devil the same being?

Doesn't look like it.

lucifer and satan?

Doesn't look like it.

satan and the devil?

yes

The question stands. Is lucifer the one cast out of heavan to become satan?

See above.

I said god was BOTH good and evil. god is supposed to be everything, everywhere, all the time. So, yes, he must be at least partly evil along with partly everything else

Who said God was everything?

. And I said that making a chair makes the CHAIR part of ME....And as far as my reasoning being weak goes, I'm not sure I'm convinced that there could BE reasoning strong enough to make YOU understand it.

You're right about that.
Boundary confusion like that requires some pretty powerful stuff to explain it.

Are you saying that good is eternal and that evil is temporary? And if so,...How can you have good without evil?

Yes.
You've got the evil that exists now to compare it to.

Oh, and anyone else reading, I'm taking bets as to whether or not tony actually even ATTEMPTS to answer a question this time. I'm personally betting against you answering, tony, 'cause that would be just a liiittle too frightening an endeavor for you.

Oh yeah, you're terrifying all right.

Based on your attempts at reasoning evident in other posts, I'm afraid that some of whatever it is you have might rub off on me.

 

[Tiassa]

So, uh, Tony

That's a nice opinion of Satan, Lucifer, and the Devil. Of course, I agree with you on the Lucifer bit; that name is reserved for the christos.

But have you any references to back your opinion, or is this, like everything else you seem to post, merely your opinion?

thanx,
Tiassa

 

[DEVILDOG]

Originally posted by tony1

.
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.[/i]
(Matthew 6:31-34, KJV).

Actually what I meant by saying "live for today, for tommorrow never comes" was something my grandfather said all the time. "Tommorrow never comes because when it gets here it becomes Today."

I surely was NOT trying to quote the bible.

 

[tony1]

Originally posted by DEVILDOG
"Tommorrow never comes because when it gets here it becomes Today."

Same is true for Christians.

I surely was NOT trying to quote the bible.

I didn't think so.

But when you wish to speak the truth, you end up quoting the Bible.

 

[felix]

Thus says the Lord God: "You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God... You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created till iniquity was found in you... You became filled with violence within, and you sinned; therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God; and I destroyed you..." Ezekiel, 28:12


This appears to state that he was NOT a murderer from the beginning.

I went ahead and did some research on the Lucifer/Satan thing, and it seems there is some debate already about Lucifer and Satan/the devil being the same.

Originally posted by tony1

Who said God was everything?

That's just what I was taught in Sunday school.

Oh yeah, you're terrifying all right.

Evidently. I can smell your fear.

Based on your attempts at reasoning evident in other posts, I'm afraid that some of whatever it is you have might rub off on me.

I have to admit, I didn't think it would be that easy to get you to agree with me about anything at all.

 

[tony1]

Originally posted by felix
Thus says the Lord God: "You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God... You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created till iniquity was found in you... You became filled with violence within, and you sinned; therefore I cast you as a profane thing out of the mountain of God; and I destroyed you..." Ezekiel, 28:12


This appears to state that he was NOT a murderer from the beginning.

Good quote, but if you read a little farther up the page...

Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
(Ezekiel 28:12, KJV).
That is talking about the king of Tyrus.

I went ahead and did some research on the Lucifer/Satan thing, and it seems there is some debate already about Lucifer and Satan/the devil being the same.

I've noticed that, too.

That's just what I was taught in Sunday school.

And you went ahead and believed it?

Evidently. I can smell your fear.

I'm not there with you. It must be you.

I have to admit, I didn't think it would be that easy to get you to agree with me about anything at all.

Wouldn't it be kind of pointless debating with someone who agrees with everything you say?

 

[felix]

Originally posted by tony1

Good quote, but if you read a little farther up the page...

Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
(Ezekiel 28:12, KJV).
That is talking about the king of Tyrus.

Well your the one that brought it up in reference to one of my questions about Lucifer, tony. Don't blame me if it has no relevance.

And you went ahead and believed it?

I believed that they believed it.

Wouldn't it be kind of pointless debating with someone who agrees with everything you say?

Well, just because I agree with a point doesn't mean I can't debate against it if I choose to. But I get your meaning, so YES it would be pointless.

 

[DEVILDOG]

Originally posted by tony1

But when you wish to speak the truth, you end up quoting the Bible.

What are you talking about, your reference to (Matthew 6:31-34, KJV). was about not worrying about tommorrow because it takes care of itself. My point was tommorrow never comes. There is no connection between the two.

 

[tony1]

Originally posted by felix
Well your the one that brought it up in reference to one of my questions about Lucifer, tony. Don't blame me if it has no relevance.

Since you actually quoted those verses, I'd have say any lack of relevance would be yours.

I believed that they believed it.

Does this mean that anyone debating you has to debate not just your points, but also those that you believe someone else would make?

Originally posted by DEVILDOG
What are you talking about, your reference to (Matthew 6:31-34, KJV). was about not worrying about tommorrow because it takes care of itself.

How do you think it takes care of itself?
It never comes.

My point was tommorrow never comes.

Is there an echo in here?

 

[DEVILDOG]

Let's try this again.

Originally posted by tony1

How do you think it takes care of itself?
It never comes.

The way I read the passage, and my interpretation would be don't worry about tomorrow it takes care of itself, meaning cross that bridge when you get to it. Don't over worry about a problem, because when you face the problem your fears will probably be worse than the situation actually is.

Isn't that amazing, something so many christians consider to be perfect, the bible, can have such an enormous amount of interpretations. Seems to me, if that is the way we are supposed to live our lives, then it would only be able to be interpreted one way. That solves that problem, it has different meanings to different people so it must not be correct, perfect, or meant to be followed.

 

[tony1]

Originally posted by DEVILDOG
The way I read the passage, and my interpretation would be don't worry about tomorrow it takes care of itself, meaning cross that bridge when you get to it. Don't over worry about a problem, because when you face the problem your fears will probably be worse than the situation actually is.

Isn't that amazing, something so many christians consider to be perfect, the bible, can have such an enormous amount of interpretations. Seems to me, if that is the way we are supposed to live our lives, then it would only be able to be interpreted one way. That solves that problem, it has different meanings to different people so it must not be correct, perfect, or meant to be followed.

"Cross that bridge when you get to it."
"Don't worry about a problem."
"Your fears will probably be worse."
...
(giant leap)
...
The Bible must not be meant to be followed?

What a leap!

Tomorrow STILL never comes.

 

[Sir. Loone]

The 'Truth' can set you free!

All life has 'purpose'! All has meaning ! To the Glory of GOD!
Every one in the Human-race has a much higher 'purpose' to there existence then that of animals! Man was created in the image of GOD, though fallen man can act like an animal, and can be worse then any animal, he still is and was created in the image of GOD! And that is why it's wrong to murder! And to have an abortion! The person is created in the image of GOD! And man can have a personal relationship with GOD Almighty threw JESUS the Son of GOD! We have the highest calling of any terrestrial creature anywhere! And can live forever with the loving Heavenly Father and His Son, with loved ones to rule with JESUS!But so many will not enter into eternity in peace, because they have rejected JESUS as savoir, and will spin eternity separated from the author of life it self, into eternal torment!

 

[felix]

Originally posted by tony1

Since you actually quoted those verses, I'd have say any lack of relevance would be yours.

Look a little further back, tony. You were the original quoter of that verse. I just typed a little more of it.

Does this mean that anyone debating you has to debate not just your points, but also those that you believe someone else would make?

Sure, why not? Although I don't see why you care, since you take everything and rearrange the words or take partial statements out of context to match your hatred of everthing not you.

 

[Sir. Loone]

There is 'meaning and purpose to life'!

In JESUS, there is purpose and meaning to life! And the Word of GOD is the only truth that will guide you out of darkness in His marvelous light! The Bible is supreme!!

 

[Tiassa]

I always knew it was about Supremacy

Thanx much, Loone, for affirming what so many pagans, atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, and many others knew already.

--Tiassa