There is 'meaning and purpose to life'

Life is to the Glory of GOD our Creator!

Hi Dan 1123, me not try to discredit Christianity, but to not to compromise with the : World, the Flesh and the Evil one, the Father of Lies, the Devil! There would be NO compromising of the Faith for no reason what so ever!
My Jesus is real and has let me know that I am ok, even when Pharisees say that in-which is of the negative. :D GOD loves me even more then I could understand it ..ever in this life! And even you and others, He is "no respecter of persons" and can deal with my life and others far above what I can ask or think! By the
GRACE OF GOD! "I Am saved, not of works, but it is the gift of GOD!" (saved unto good works) Remember, we Christians are still growing [so still are quite human]! We will come into fullness of maturity when He (Jesus) comes again!:) Have Fun in the Sun that was created by GOD!
 
...but to not to compromise with the : World, the Flesh and the Evil one...
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Interesting that you group "the Flesh" with these evils. It's like you're on the path of the gnostic dualists who thought that anything material was evil, and therefore Jesus did not live as a physical and material being after the resurrection. Paul shoots that one down--I think it's in Corinthians. But the point is that the flesh is not the evil or fallen part of us. The flesh was first made good. The flesh can be made good again (in a physical and material heaven).
 
Better Analogy

>Parent takes child to sea.
>Child tells parent that he's a "big boy" and swim alone.
>Parent allows child to do so, but keeps an eye on him from shore.
>Child gets caught in undertow and starts to drown.
>Parent tries to help child.
>Child refuses, shouting "It's your fault I'm drowning in the first place. Why would I let <i>you</i> help me?"
>Child drowns :(

Option: The last two steps could be replaced by:
>Child trusts his parent to rescue him.
>Child lives. :)

~Caleb
 
Maybe ...

If the parent allowed the child the liberty of performing the breast- or side-stroke, the child wouldn't have drowned attempting to crawl back to shore.

It's all about parental pride.

The fear of punishment compels people to obscene endangerments.

thanx,
Tiassa:cool:
 
Nice to meet you too Cupric. I like to feel like I tried with Loone too, but I have to admit I usually end up antagonizing him for my own amusement.

Dan1123 - I'm not sure the answer is obvious. In fact, when you say "If that is your question", I don't even know what question.

Loone, I forget who it was here, that suggested you try NOT using bible quotes. I think it's a good suggestion. It would let us know that you can actually form your own thoughts. Right now you sound like some bible machine spittin' out quotes for unleavened fortune cookies or something. I understand that the brainwashing of the church can be a powerful thing, but are you really so gone that you're scared to form your sentences? Just poke your head out of your shell for a second.
 
Even Better Analogy

--Parent takes child to sea

--Parent throws child in water knowing he can't swim

--Child gets caught in undertow

--Child cries for help.

--Parent says from his Golden Throne!
Pray for my help!
Praise Me!
Tell me how dispicable you are!
Tell me how wonderful and Glorious I am!
Sing to me, Tell me you love me!
Tithe to me!
Suffer for me!



Little more on the mark Says I.
 
I forgot say.

Caleb, I'm not really sure what you're driving at with that little story.

and, Tiassa, you're absolutely right. If Loone really does believe what he preaches, he does more harm than good for his religion. You hear that, Loone? No body WANTS to be a mindless tool.

I actually post this next quote in another discussion, but I feel compelled to do it again. I read this a good book:

The most preposterous thing homo sapien has ever come up with is that GOD, creator of all the universes and everything in them, wants our sacharine adoration, can be swayed by our prayers, and becomes petulant if he doesn't receive this flattery. Yet it's this belief that fund the oldest, largest and least productive industry on earth.

The second most preposterous thing is that copulation is inherently sinful.

---That book was full of good quotes. Uh oh, now I'M quoting. I hope this doesn't mean Loone is rubbing off on me.
 
Que,

That one I understood. Excellent analogy. In fact, it pretty much sums up my most basic opinion of doctrined religions.

very nice.
 
None of these analogies include the idea of spiritual warfare contained in the Bible.

If you want everything spiritual to be part of God, then the devil is part of God. This doesn't mesh.

If you wanted to use the analogy of the sea, you would have to include the devil in some way. Maybe some creature that was supposed to help the child swim turned against the child and latched onto him in such a way that no matter how the parent tried to save the child, the child would die.

So the devil thinks he has won--except there is one way that the parent can save the child: Put himself in the child's place and die in the way that the child should have. This, however, is a high price to pay.
 
I was under the impression that the the devil is part of God. After all, he was the first angel. Loved once above all others. Therefore God must have made him capable of the "evil" he now pursues. And, therefore, "God" must be both good AND evil. But that must be anyway if "God" is omniscient and omnipotent. For if "He" didn't wish there to be "evil", then there wouldn't be. So obviously good and evil are both gods will.

Although, I've never been one to get much into the bible. Not to mention, I think the idea of omniscience and omnipotence are rediculous, because that implies a finite amount of knowledge and power to be had. And I believe eternity is out there waiting and that there will always be more knowledge and power to be had.

which reminds me of another quote I like:

"God is omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenevolent. If you have a mind capable of believing all of these things at once, then I have the deal for you. NO CHECKS! Cash, and in small bills."
 
felix:

Your post implies that good and evil are things separate from God Himself. If good and evil are separate from God as you and I are, then God must be beneath good and evil. He must lie beneath some greater power than whatever made good and evil.

However, if evil is defined as rebelling against God. Then God can be entirely good without needing to contain evil. God could simply do the good act of creating a creature that could freely choose to go along with God or rebel against Him. If the creature rebelled against God, and doing so is by definition evil, then evil exists without God being evil Himself.
 
Devil and God

When all is said and done, and the glory of the coming of the Lord is past, will His holy servant, the Devil, be redeemed?

Felix
I was under the impression that the the devil is part of God. After all, he was the first angel. Loved once above all others. Therefore God must have made him capable of the "evil" he now pursues. And, therefore, "God" must be both good AND evil. But that must be anyway if "God" is omniscient and omnipotent. For if "He" didn't wish there to be "evil", then there wouldn't be. So obviously good and evil are both gods will.
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You have it exactly ... as I recall, a couple of "heresies" were physically erased from the earth by the human manifestations of God's will for considering that very question. I was about to say the Cathar heresy, but that turns out to be wrong, so I'm left trying to wrack my brain, because the Catholic Encyclopaedia is just too thick with propaganda for my current mood, and I'm not particularly enthusiastic about sitting down and raiding the indices of several books at once to figure it out. I'm sure I'll come across that one eventually.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
dan,

I didn't intend to imply that good and evil were separate from god. On the contrary, I was using the assumption of an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-consuming G O D. If god is such, then you and I are not separate from god either, and there is no apposing H I M. But the very people that worship this god are constantly spouting about OTHER people acting against GOD's will. And while presuming to be able to comprehend the intellect of such a being, feign humbleness.

Am I off topic here? What were we talking about?
 
Re: Devil and God

your welcome, tiassa. Although, I'm not sure what "thanx" was for.



Originally posted by tiassa
When all is said and done, and the glory of the coming of the Lord is past, will His holy servant, the Devil, be redeemed?
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tiassa, is that a quote from someone/some-book? I've never seen or heard of the devil be referred to as "His Holy Servant" before. Although, I admit I am not well read on religious topics. I sure do love to ramble on about them though.

***And G O D gazed down upon felix, saying, "VENT, my son, for I don't give a flyin' rats ass what you say. You are all here for my amusement." ***
 
Originally posted by DEVILDOG
LIVE FOR TODAY, FOR TOMMORROW NEVER COMES.
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Interesting quote...

Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek: ) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
(Matthew 6:31-34, KJV).

Originally posted by dan1123
If you want everything spiritual to be part of God, then the devil is part of God. This doesn't mesh.
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Why would you want that?

Not everything spiritual is part of God, any more than everything liquid is water.

Originally posted by felix
I was under the impression that the the devil is part of God.
Click to expand...
So, if you make a chair, that chair is part of you?
After all, he was the first angel. Loved once above all others.
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Not really.

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
(John 8:44, KJV).

Therefore God must have made him capable of the "evil" he now pursues. And, therefore, "God" must be both good AND evil.
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Doesn't follow.

Originally posted by tiassa
When all is said and done, and the glory of the coming of the Lord is past, will His holy servant, the Devil, be redeemed?
Click to expand...
No.

Here's how it works...

God
creator
good
eternal
wise
His servants are servants deliberately
powerful
Knows he's winning even though it looks like he's not

Satan (the Devil)
created
bad
temporary
foolish
Servant of God unwittingly
feeble
Thinks he'll win even though he won't

Notice the opposites?
 
I think "thanx" is part of tiassa's sig. I thought he was being sarcastic with me at first.

But the very people that worship this god are constantly spouting about OTHER people acting against GOD's will.
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Everyone acts contrary to God's will all the time. If we could act along with God's will, Jesus would have come down with a twelve-step program on how to act in God's will.

On the contrary, I was using the assumption of an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-consuming G O D. If god is such, then you and I are not separate from god either, and there is no opposing H I M.
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If God wants a relationship with us, as the Bible stresses throughout. Then how could He have a relationship with Himself? If we are part of God, then how come we don't know anything but ourselves?

If the universe is not separate from God, then why isn't the universe thinking and acting on a will instead of blind forces? God may sustain the universe, but God doesn't directly cause things to happen. He doesn't cause us to act either--this should be obvious. (certain miracles recorded in the Bible are exceptions--otherwise they would not be miracles)

So if we are separate from God, we are free to act counter to God. And if God is the measure of good, then acting counter to good is the measure of evil.
 
"So, if you make a chair, that chair is part of you?"
Well, yes, actually.


"Not really."
Is the devil not Lucifer?


"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
(John 8:44, KJV)."

That's supposed to tell me what? That god doesn't want to shoulder the blame for his own creations?


"Doesn't follow."
Who or what doesn't follow who or what?




"Here's how it works...

God
creator
good
eternal
wise
His servants are servants deliberately
powerful
Knows he's winning even though it looks like he's not

Satan (the Devil)
created
bad
temporary
foolish
Servant of God unwittingly
feeble
Thinks he'll win even though he won't

Notice the opposites?"

Yes, I notice the opposites. Very neatly done. Albeit, without a shred of proof to bolster it. Even when I was very young and forced to go to church I didn't believe things just because someone else said it was so. They never liked me at church.

So your saying that evil is temporary and good is eternal? How can you have good without evil? The concepts define each other. "You can't have a light without a dark to stick it in".
 
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dan,

thanks, I was noticing the "thanx" thing on other posts.

also, how could you know that everyone acts against god's will all the time? maybe we all act along with god's will all the time. And why couldn't god have a relationship with himself? I know it's a bit of a cliche, but it's good know oneself. Getting to know yourself as a GOD must be a lot more complex a process than we go through.
 
There is a key to the "Thanx" thing

But it actually requires its own topic, and I think the explanatory post might take about two days to read, and I haven't a clue how long to write. But it largely has to do with my subjective interpretation of the post I'm responding to, and what it incites within me. To say that I specifically withdraw it when I'm upset about something is inaccurate, but does describe the general trend; to the other, I do include it when someone gives me nothing but sarcastic delight, or when someone dead-ends their own point. Of course, I'm quite sure there are occasions that I've forgotten to include it altogether; as Tony1 is fond of noting, THC can do that to someone; there have been occasions when I've gone back and edited a post to put it in; it happens. ;)

Felix: re: His Holy Servant

One of the points I try to hammer as mercilessly as possible is that by most accepted Christians schemes, the nature of the Devil is an impossibility, for it either limits God in a manner unacceptable to the faithful, or places evil as a responsibility of God's Will. If we start with the Christian notion that God is in full control of the Universe, and nothing is unknown to him, it means that the Devil does his work as a result of God's Will; there is the beginning of Job, when the Devil attends God alongside the hosts of Heaven:

* Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. (Job 1.6, KJV)

Some tradition or another states that Mephistophiles is allowed access to Heaven (cf. Goethe's Faust and Marlowe's Doctor Faustus; in their time, had they not appropriate support for their literary assertions, they ran the risk of condemnation), but Satan himself? He's expelled, as I understand it.

But since nothing happens without God's Will, I tend to push the Holy Servant angle: Satan has a definite part in God's scheme; the question is one of redemption.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
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