The Riddle of Epicurus
- Thread starter Zero Mass
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the preacher said:
Preacher for crying out loud a duck is a duck. You're arguing about what to call the same thing. Ok, how about this...just because you don't call it sin, doesn't mean sin doesn't exist, or that you aren't a sinner. Is it really that important what you call it? Let's call greed greed, and let's call lust lust...let's call envy envy, and let's call sloth sloth...ok? How about that?
And you know what? It seems that you're a bit biased. Let's see how you take it if someone opens a response to your post with "First off, you make me sick." The animosity that I receive from some out here is definitely not imagined, as it has even been pointed out by others, including an atheist. People disagree with me all the time, are you kidding? My own family disagrees with me about all kinds of things...and dear friends...and I love them to death, and we get along splendidly.
So let me ask you a question...how do you feel about Christians? Cause I get the distinct feeling that some people out here would answer "I hate them"...or how about "they make me sick". All I have to do is come out to one of these threads and offer up my honest opinion...what I believe, and that's the sentiment that is hurled at me. And actually, some of you atheists have proven that some particular scripture is true regarding this sentiment. Way to go.
Oh yes, and now I'm a homicidal maniac...right...um...do you hear yourself?!?!?!?!?!?!? And I would suppose that according to what you've said that your sentiment here is completely justified and rational and that I would have no right or reason to be offended. Is that right? And if I were to be offended then you could criticize me and insinuate more horrible things about me and call me names and...well, I've gotta run...seems someone wants to know my address so they can come over and cut off my fingers and toes.
F%$K OFF,
Lori
Ok, you know...I'm sorry for saying F OFF...I don't really mean it necessarily...all that much anyway...and now I feel kind of guilty for saying it. I'm just pissed...the animosity is getting old and wearing on me a bit. I'm not used to people hating me...quite the opposite actually. So would you forgive me? Is that what you even call it, or because it's a major tenet of the Christian faith do you say that forgiveness doesn't exist and refer to the same act by some other term? lol...
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Persol said:
And that would be your choice to come over and tie me up and mutilate me right?
I did answer the question in the first post...my answer was that He is able, but not willing...yet. He's not done yet...seems that some are slow learners.
God doesn't short change anyone...He's GOD. He made us for crying out loud...He designed the desires of your heart and put them in there...He can count the number of hairs on your head at any given time. We're clearly all different. Some people go to their graves just as lost and miserable as they ever were...hard-hearted, bitter, hateful, assholes that seemed to never learn a lesson their entire lives...because they chose not to. Then there are some who seem to have "old souls"...mature beyond their years. The kind of people who don't have to learn everything the hard way. I know what it took to bring me to my knees...to humble me...to get me to sincerely seek the truth. It took something horrible...absolutely horrible. I can only speak for myself.
Love,
Lori
You do realise of course Lori that the main angst about all this Bible and God stuff is that for it to work we must accept that from the moment we were conceived in our mothers womb we some how inherited a sin. This is so counter intuitive that people feel that you are offending them by calling them a sinner when in fact they believe your belief that they are is invalid.
To claim that a week old baby is a sinner and goes to hell if it doesn't grow old enough to understand a concept called Jesus is just so absurd it is almost laughable if it were not for how serious some xians are about it.
The problem is I think people are startng to know when they are being taken for a ride, and this bodes badly for religion because to accept the religion is to allow ourself to be conned into believing you are guilty for something someone else has done which in this case is "god" himself.
The whole offering of the bible and most mono-theistic religions is built on the premise of creating the need [belief in original sin] and provide the answer [in this case Jesus]
Now most people are starting to see this marketing ploy for what it is and of course they get offended when, in your eyes they are sinners and when in their own eyes they can not accept your offending assumption.
It is unfortunate that the very nature of strong belief in a book so full of holes works against what you desire. I would suggest that you all find a better book to use as your justification, because if you rely on this book as your justification religion as we know it is doomed to become a showpiece of superstitious nonsense, which more and more persons are determining it to be as time goes on.
May be it is worth asking why we should accept that the bible and it's followers are not the product of superstition, no different to the belief that rocks with holes in them are devine or pagan whitch craft has intrinsic value.
Why should we believe that it isn't a bad case of clinging to a superstition?
To claim that a week old baby is a sinner and goes to hell if it doesn't grow old enough to understand a concept called Jesus is just so absurd it is almost laughable if it were not for how serious some xians are about it.
The problem is I think people are startng to know when they are being taken for a ride, and this bodes badly for religion because to accept the religion is to allow ourself to be conned into believing you are guilty for something someone else has done which in this case is "god" himself.
The whole offering of the bible and most mono-theistic religions is built on the premise of creating the need [belief in original sin] and provide the answer [in this case Jesus]
Now most people are starting to see this marketing ploy for what it is and of course they get offended when, in your eyes they are sinners and when in their own eyes they can not accept your offending assumption.
It is unfortunate that the very nature of strong belief in a book so full of holes works against what you desire. I would suggest that you all find a better book to use as your justification, because if you rely on this book as your justification religion as we know it is doomed to become a showpiece of superstitious nonsense, which more and more persons are determining it to be as time goes on.
May be it is worth asking why we should accept that the bible and it's followers are not the product of superstition, no different to the belief that rocks with holes in them are devine or pagan whitch craft has intrinsic value.
Why should we believe that it isn't a bad case of clinging to a superstition?
You often run into this argument when God's apparent refusal to prevent horrific things from happening is brought up; Christians will say that God doesn't use his omnipotent powers to prevent, say, a serial killer from torturing, raping, and murdering a child because God values our free will. Think about this for a minute - you're saying that God values the serial killer's right to free will more than the child's right to not be raped, tortured, and murdered. Does that really make sense to you?Lori_7 said:
Of course Nasor, all this really means is that the Christian idea of God is obviously wrong. Not necessarilly that a 'God' per see exists or not, just as to whether the idea of a God capable of doing things deliberately exists.
I for one would argue that the God so often referred to is incapable of single minded action, the God of the bible being a God of preference rather than a God of reality.
To me the entire universe is what God is, and some would call it just simply nature but to assume that God exists as depicted in the bible denigrates God to the level of an idiot lacking any sense at all. And personally I don't think the universe is at all as idiotic as the god of preference being that depicted in the bible and other prescribed montheistic text.
In a way Christianity is an insult to God, as the God would be considerably smarter than what they think he is and certainly not indifferent to the girl being raped and tortured by a serial killer.
So therefore one can only concur that a God as described by the bible does not exist as this would make him a laughing stock.
But I temper my comments by saying that just because the Christian version does not exist this doesn't extend to mean that God doesn't exist, only that he doesn't exist in the form as we would like him to exist.
Quantum Quack said:
Nice, you have good knowledge of good and evil.
A divine action can never be evil and a satanic action can never be good. Free will is needed to differ between right and wrong. Deliberate actions are done in the mind, and what we have done in the mind, that we have already done. A divine action is done in the right place and at right time, but a satanic action is done in the wrong place and at wrong time.
To control your characteristics means to use them in the right place and time. The same characteristic, which is divine in the right place and time, is satanic when used in the wrong place and time. There are no evil characteristics or powers, only characteristics and powers we use in a wrong way. A hammer becomes satanic in a persons hand who uses it to kill an innocent person, and it becomes divine when a person uses it to build something loveful.
If you speak in the wrong place and time, when speaking can hurt, the speaking becomes satanic, it forms into evil 'gossip'. This is a situation where you should be silent, because if silence happens in the right place, it is divine, an act of God. But if you are silent when one word can heal or save someones life, the silence once again forms to a satanic action, into a satanic 'secrecy'. Just as speaking and silence ('not-speaking') are two, each others, complementary manifestations of one power, there are many other characteritics that we have to learn to control in a divine, right way.
When you can control all your characteristics you will not be mistaken anymore, because you will be the love itself. Because love can only do love, you can just radiate 'yourself', you can only be, and 'life giving water will pour out from your eyes.' Remember that all the good chararacteristics that we have belong to Him, our person is only an instrument, a projector. All powers that we express flow to our person from the higher self, from God. The person is only an illusion, our only eternal real being is God.
There are limits in everything, so we should have a balanced mind in every situation. We must be brave and we mustn't fear, not even the death. But never must this courage turn into satanic 'rashness'. Because we must also be careful, but never must this carefulness fall too low. We have to fight with the sword of justice, but never must this fighting turn into senseless 'quarrel'. We must fight so that peace appears between those who are fighting. But never must this peacefulness turn into cowardice. We must do things as good as we can, not 'better' or 'worse'. Otherwise it turns into what I have told you. The personal self doesn't have that much importance as one might think.
It's better for a man to lose his body than to lose his soul. But we must never lead people by force, even if we tell the 'truth' for them, it is still not True if we try to force them to the 'truth'. God let's us have free will, and so must we let others have it, because God only does the good, beautiful and loveful. But never must this turn into personal 'desires', and just watch by when someone is dying. When a word heals, let it out, when a word destroys, don't let it out. Find the perfect balance and see the difference. Whatever we 'eat' we become. Eat these words and once again you 'eat' the fruits from the Lifetree.
It is possible for every human to hear the voice of the higher Self wispering, and whoever obeys this word is on his way to heaven.
But you are what you are, and so is also your future.
But yorda you mentioned earlier that evil 'satanic acts must continue to exist so that we know what is good.
So is not by yourown reckoning doing an evil act just helping every one to know what good is?
And if this is the case is that evil act actually evil if it is needed to create the good.
"evil is good because it allows us to see what is good" type reasoning
Do you see how the logic you are using defeats itself?
So is not by yourown reckoning doing an evil act just helping every one to know what good is?
And if this is the case is that evil act actually evil if it is needed to create the good.
"evil is good because it allows us to see what is good" type reasoning
Do you see how the logic you are using defeats itself?
QQ
No, evil acts must not exist. But the evil must exist in the hidden, undisclosed; we must never express the evil, but use it as we use the ground when we walk. A thing can't exist without its complementary half. However, the ground, the matter, is not evil, but if we follow its Law, we bring the law alive with our own life - the living matter is satan - the evil. Satan lies dead in matter as long as we don't bring it to life, and it acts as a divine law, a necessary natural law of resistance, since it acts in matter, as matter, that is; 'in the right place and at right time'.
But if the law of resistance and cold is brought to the spirit, it exist 'in the wrong place and at wrong time'. Then man converts and expresses the 'qualities' of matter (hardness, resistance, drawing inward/gravity, cooling) as spiritual forms like egoism, jealousy, spiritual hardness, vain and greediness. Without the ground we can't jump, but we must never express the ground, the material, egoistic nature. If we were not tempted we wouldn't find the good, but we must never fall for the temptations.
Now, there are also evil acts in the world because most people don't win over these temptations, but by their mistakes they will suffer and they will learn by the evil in the 'world' (humans) that they must be good. It would be better if these things never existed, but the free will must exist, and man is like he is and so is his future.
No, evil acts must not exist. But the evil must exist in the hidden, undisclosed; we must never express the evil, but use it as we use the ground when we walk. A thing can't exist without its complementary half. However, the ground, the matter, is not evil, but if we follow its Law, we bring the law alive with our own life - the living matter is satan - the evil. Satan lies dead in matter as long as we don't bring it to life, and it acts as a divine law, a necessary natural law of resistance, since it acts in matter, as matter, that is; 'in the right place and at right time'.
But if the law of resistance and cold is brought to the spirit, it exist 'in the wrong place and at wrong time'. Then man converts and expresses the 'qualities' of matter (hardness, resistance, drawing inward/gravity, cooling) as spiritual forms like egoism, jealousy, spiritual hardness, vain and greediness. Without the ground we can't jump, but we must never express the ground, the material, egoistic nature. If we were not tempted we wouldn't find the good, but we must never fall for the temptations.
Now, there are also evil acts in the world because most people don't win over these temptations, but by their mistakes they will suffer and they will learn by the evil in the 'world' (humans) that they must be good. It would be better if these things never existed, but the free will must exist, and man is like he is and so is his future.
Quantum Quack said:You know, it is contantly a source of amazment and wonder how poeple use their imaginations and apply small fragments of information and build huge stories out of them. Tolkien was famous for doing it and Yorda you should write a book or two just like he did.
I am impressed by the story and marvel at it's construction but most of all I am amazed that it has the possibility of one person giving it credibility by lending his belief to it.
Actually I wasn't using my imagination, but just telling the truth. That is all I know and I wouldn't be able to write much more about it than that.
This human race will pass away in the future and maybe another human race will be born, and when they hear about this human race, they will be amazed by what we had achieved and they will tell it to other people. The story goes on and in a distant future it will be thought as a myth, a story, a 'fairytale', but we lived here once and we did what we did, but they don't believe. We flew with space crafts to other planets, we built 'machines' by which we could manipulate and transform 'matter' and 'energy' into different forms, we could control the gravity and other natural forces. Will all these be turned into myths once again, just as the 'miracles' of the Bible has turned into 'myths'?
Many stories like the story about tolkien may in some way reflect real things that has happened, but it is still totally 'made up', of course. Because people are so 'proud' of themselves they don't want to believe anything in the religious scriptures. Why would they say that the Bible is true if it isn't? Why would they write that Moses divided the sea and Jesus raised the dead if they didn't?
Now travel to Egypt, look at the great pyramid and ask yourself how it was built, who did it and why.
"You performed miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt and have continued them to this day, both in Israel and among all mankind, and have gained the renown that is still yours. You brought your people Israel out of Egypt with signs and wonders, by a mighty hand and an outstretched arm and with great terror." Jeremia 32:20-21
now wouldnt GOD be responsible for CREATING people wicked then?Lori_7 said:
like you say here....
thanks for the contradiction,now you know why reasonable person cannot take the bible seriously!
btw He couldnt just smite the bad fuckers instead of drowning the whole world??
Quantum Quack said:
Maybe this is where the misconception lies then. I'm not calling anyone anything. I haven't come out here shaking my finger in anyone's face saying, "Repent you sinner or you're going to hell!" You would never in a million years hear those words from me. I speak for myself and for my own beliefs...my own testimony...my own knowledge. I'll call myself a sinner without a doubt...trust me, there is nothing that I'm more aware of except maybe God's love, which I am so eternally grateful for. I haven't come out here accusing people of anything. I came out here to share my experience with people. I mean shit, I had an f'ing miracle happen to me that blew my mind...still is...you know, something along the lines of Fatima, or statues crying tears of blood, or stigmata...what has happened to me...it's just huge...it's huge. And I came out here to share what I know, from what I've experienced. You know, I never expected everyone to agree with what I believe. You can't know what I know unless you've experienced it yourself. And for God's sake I would never suggest that someone just take my word for it...that would be crazy. I never expected people to believe what I said. What has happened to me has been so absolutely over the top that I don't blame people for having a hard time understanding or believing it. I don't know, I used to post out here for years...years ago...and I shared alot, and I learned alot, and I made some really great friends...and with those who do not share my beliefs. There used to be people out here who were intelligent, and respectful, even in disagreement. This place has changed a lot, and unfortunately for the worse. But I didn't know that, and so I came out here thinking that if there was one place that I should be able to go to share some over the top miracle, that it would be here. I was wrong. I thought that if there was a place that I could go to talk about my beliefs and the experience I've had that has led me to them, that it would be a "religious forum", but I was wrong. I think that most of the people out here are cool, but there are a select few, who are honestly some of the most hateful, cynical, close-minded, bigoted, ignorant, self-righteous, egotistical blow-hards I've ever had the displeasure of trying in vain to communicate with. And I suppose that because of said traits, they seem to have something to say about everything...never anything intelligent, respectful, or constructive...but that doesn't stop them. And I suppose that because they hate me, or hate Christianity, or hate me because I'm a Christian, or for whatever reason, they make a point of attacking me at every opportunity. It's entirely lame.
I'm a Christian and that is in no way shape or form what I believe to be true. You know, I think the problem definitely is that people who don't know God, or people who aren't even educated in the tenets of the faith through some other theological means, assume to understand things about it/Him, and they're wrong. But the problem is that they don't care if they're wrong, as long as they have what they deem to be a good reason to deny Him, they are happy with that. Let me assure you that God is not stupid, and His will is not absurd. What you have said above is not in God's Word anywhere, and as a matter of fact, it is contradicted in His Word. So why do you want to believe such a thing about God? Why would you assume that this is His sentiment?
You know, because of pride, which is a sin according to the faith, people are so caught up in the whole right vs wrong, good vs bad thing, and that's missing the whole point. People always seem to focus even more on particular acts rather than sin being a state of existence. I can only speak for myself when I say that when I take a look at myself, and when I look around at the world around me, I can see greed, lust, envy, sloth, gluttony, pride, and wrath. Can other people not see these things? I've experienced these things within myself and around me and lived through, and continue to live through the consequences of them...don't you? Are you satisfied with this world? I'm not, and not many people are. Sure there is good in it, but a lot of bad as well...there is both. One of the arguements that is always thrown up is that God is a big meanie for allowing such horrible things happen in the world...all of the pain, suffering and death...that He must be sadistic or malevolent. Which tells me then that people do in fact see the sin, and the conseqences of it...they just don't want to call it sin...whatever???? What you call it is really irrelevant...like I said, a duck is a duck. So you disagree with the fact that humanity is fatally flawed? Well, we surely do die don't we? And we surely do suffer until we do. You think that humanity has what it takes to perfect itself...to redeem itself...to save itself? Well then let's take a look at every history book in existence, and let's take a look at current events. Um...yea...can't really see that happening. Shit, all I have to do is take a look in the mirror, and I know that's never going to happen. Because what I want in my spirit is not the same as what I want in the flesh...they oppose each other...I feel that war going on. So I've given myself and my life up to Him, because I realize that is the only real hope that I have. I would rather not live unless it is He who lives through me..this is what I pray. And on a related sidenote...a rebirth of the flesh...by the flesh...by man...is the mark of the beast. It is a genetic alteration that will make the life of the flesh eternal, but that will kill you spiritually...cut you off completely from God. This is the same thing as the fall of man...this change....only where the fall placed a veil of sin between man and God, the mark cuts us off altogether...the final nail in the coffin. It is stupid to think that we could look to ourselves to provide eternal life and perfection in our own creation...because it is not ourselves who created in the first place. And before you even go there, that is not to say that we are not responsible. We are responsible for gaining enough knowledge through humility and sincerity to realize that can not save ourselves, and to seek the truth about God.
I feel the need. The need has brought me to my knees crying out for help. He was there for me. He was there with me. I heard Him. I felt Him. And what people don't want to know is that I am in no way speaking metaphorically, and that I'm as sane as the day is long. And when this happens to you, you know. You f'ing know...doubt is obliterated. Jesus is the answer. I know Him. I've lived through it, and I know because and only because I've lived through it and I know Him. I don't know what else to say...I'm telling you the truth. The only thing that keeps people from knowing what I know is that they don't want to...that's it. And I think it's extremely clear based upon what's written out here, and if the people reading this were to look honestly at their own intent...people don't want to know Jesus. They don't want to know God. They don't want to share their lives with Him...to hand their self and their lives over to Him. It's as simple as that. And so they go about claiming good reason to not want Him, and that is every man's choice to make. But I'm telling you sincerely that I too was like that at one time...when I was younger. But my intentions changed. And I found out that I was wrong...man, was I ever wrong. And I just want to tell people so bad that they're wrong about God, that they don't understand Him at all. I want to convince them to just get to know Him themselves and they would see what I mean...they would see how wrong a person can be...I saw this myself! But the frustration comes in realizing that people just don't want to know. People don't want to know the truth about Him...people don't want to know Him...otherwise they would...because a sincere desire is all it takes.
What is it exactly that you think I'm marketing? I'm not trying to offend, I'm trying to help. I've experienced something that has helped me so much...that has made my life so fulfilling and so awesome and I'm so amazed and I just want to share it with everyone. I want everyone to know what I know. I want everyone to know and feel and see just how much God loves them. I'm not charging a f'ing fee you know? I'm not selling an f'ing book. It's not about that you know? It's about the truth. Put your fear and your pride away for a minute and ask yourself...do I want to know the truth about God? Either way...any way...whether He does or does not exist...whether Jesus was His Son or not....whether He subscribes to a particular dogma or doctrine or not....whether you can be born again or not....whether you can actually know Him and have a relationship with Him or not...DON'T YOU WANT TO KNOW???????? WHY DON'T YOU WANT TO KNOW?????????? PEOPLE DO NOT WANT TO KNOW. And I assure you that is the ONLY thing that keeps them from knowing.
For like the gazillionth time, I in no way use a book as my justification, or as the basis of my belief. My belief is based upon knowledge that was gained through personal experience and that's it. And you know, I would really love to know exactly how many times I'm gonna have to say that before anyone out here would possibly take it into consideration. The only reason, and I mean the only reason that I know the Bible to be true is because God always uses it to confirm things that I've experienced through Him in my life. So, He'll teach me something through my life experience, and then later at some point, I'll see the same thing depicted or described in scripture, and I'll be like, "Oh, wow, so that's what this scripture is talking about...now I understand." It says right in the Bible itself that it is impossible to understand without the interpretation of the Holy Spirit on a personal level, so why it is that people still keep trying to understand it without this interpretation is beyond me. Then again, I guess it serves their purpose in rationalizing their intent, which is to deny God, and to avoid sincerely seeking the truth about Him. The Bible is not meant to be used as some theology or history or science textbook....it's so beyond that. I hate to use this word, but for purposes of explanation, the Bible is like a magic book. And I say this from personal experience. There are times when I've read it and for as much as I've understood, it may as well have been written in the orginal greek, and there have been times when the Holy Spirit has lead me to scripture that has made me feel as if I was reading my own life story...history and future...but deeply, deeply personal. Personal...as it was meant to be. Person to person....spirit to spirit....you and the Holy Spirit. Again...it is entirely futile to try to "get" God by relying on yourself to do so...you may as well not even try. All you need to do is want it, and it is He who takes it from there and via His Holy Spirit. The Bible is more than just a book...it is a spiritual tool.
You shouldn't believe anything that you don't have knowledge of yourself. You will not gain this knowledge of God from a book or from a man, but only from your own personal experience of living through it...only from Him...straight from the source. The scripture says seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened. This is law...spiritual law. You do not seek in a book, but seek God Himself. You do not knock on a man's door, or the door of a church, but call out to God Himself. "God, if you're there, if you care, I want to know it...I want to know you...show me yourself." That's it...it's that simple. And yet it is not simple because of all of the "conditions" that we want to place on Him and on the "truth" that we seek. If you sincerely seek the truth, then you seek it no matter what it is and do not place conditions on it. That is why knowledge is gained only through humility...because you have to acknowledge that you do not know already in order to seek it.
There was a time in my life when I intellectualized religion and God. I said to myself and to others that I wanted to know, but only because I rationalized that this was the correct answer to give...after all, what more important question is there to answer in this life? But sincerely, I did not want to know. It would have totally f'd up my plans for the evening...it would have been a real buzz kill. So I read books and contemplated theories and theologies and appeased my guilty conscience regarding answering the big question with what amounted to be a bunch of mental masterbation. Until something happened to me. This something was an abortion. Not judging anyone else who's had one...I had one...I know what it is, and I know what it's like. It was a culmination of things, experiences and feelings with me, but the one thing that stood out among everything else and was the primary driving force in my search was the abortion. And it made me, for the first time, really want to know. Not just to say I wanted to know...not just to read about it or theorize about it or debate it...but really want to know. I had already decided for as much reading and studying and theorizing as I had done, I would never come to truly know by these means...I needed proof. And for the first time, I sincerely wanted proof, and so I sincerely asked for it...regardless of the consequences...regardless of my weekend plans....regardless of what it meant for me and my lifestyle and my choices or whatever. I, for the first time, wanted to know the truth, no matter what the truth turned out to be, and I wanted to know for sure...without a doubt. And that is when everything changed for me. And nothing has ever been the same. It did not happen over night. Shit, it's been over a decade. But it's happened. It's happened perfectly...so that I know. And I just wish to God that everyone else wanted to know what I know now...that's my "agenda"...that's all I want. So sue me, hate me, call me a liar, call me delusional...do what you want. My intentions are sincere.
Love,
Lori
Nasor said:
I will say that yes, God values free will obviously, or these terrible things would never happen. But I will also say that God has protected me many times from harm. God has miraculously rescued people from harm. I also know that everything happens for a reason...even if what happens is horrible. He sees to it that His truth is shown in this world. Eating from the tree of knowledge is what it is. We now have knowledge of both good and evil...just like God...and now we know the difference...because we live it.
I can't explain everything, but let me share something that I realized through my own experience. I conspired and paid money to have my own child murdered. I laid my ass down on a table and allowed a doctor to vacuum the child out of my womb and chop it up to bits and throw it out with the trash with full knowledge of what he was doing. I did this for selfish reasons. Though I had rationalized at the time that I was doing it for everyone involved's own good, including my child's...when it came right down to it, I was doing it so that I would not have to face the consequences of my own foolish and selfish actions...the primary consequence being the child itself. I realized many, many years later, that this little baby...fetus...only after six weeks of life...not ever having been outside of my womb...affected more of a positive influence on this world, than I had been able to accomplish in thirty some odd years of life. A life that I lived primarily for myself. My little baby gave it's life to save it's mom's soul. This wretched mother that I am...this murderous, vile, selfish, hideous creature that would never deserve such a thing as to be forgiven or to be saved. God used the horrible and violent death of my innocent child to do something good and loving and forgiving...grace. And so when I say that I would give my life, so that God could use me in this same way, I'm not kidding...it's not lip service. I truly mean it from the bottom of my heart. It's the least I could do. And so I've given Him my life, and will continue to do so, and He can use it in whatever way He chooses. I do not deserve what He's done for me. I do not deserve the love and forgiveness that He's given me. I do not deserve the blessings that He has bestowed upon me. And to think that sometimes...shit, often times I complain and whine around selfishly about my circumstance...about it being "hard". I'm so absolutely wretched. I see this in myself, and I see His Word and His truth come to life in me. The truth about what I am...the truth about this horrid flesh that I'm in and the vile sin that resides in it. And I know that without a doubt, His Spirit is the only and I mean only good thing in me, and He is my only hope.
So, in other words...you are talking to the killer. I can only speak from my own perspective. But I can only hope that my perspective may shed a little light on an answer for someone else.
Love,
Lori
Q25 said:now wouldnt GOD be responsible for CREATING people wicked then?
like you say here....
thanks for the contradiction,now you know why reasonable person cannot take the bible seriously!
btw He couldnt just smite the bad fuckers instead of drowning the whole world??
The Bible says that Noah and His family were the only ones who were found to be "pure", which I'm assuming is referring to his bloodline...the purity of his genetics. I mean, the population then was not what it is today...we're probably only talking about a very localized population. And if you can imagine the effects of breeding a demi-god. These men were giants...men of renown. I'm sure it was a very popular thing to do...people signing up for it left and right....just like it will be with the mark of the beast. It will be presented as a good thing you know, not a bad thing, not an "ok" thing to do, but "the" thing to do. It will be presented as "the answer", as I'm sure this phenomenon was back then in Noah's day. Stands to reason doesn't it? Breeding with angels...I'm sure the consequence was a very powerful and very seductive one.
And yea, God knew that we would live in sin and still chose to create us. He wanted it this way. This is the only way that we know the difference between good and evil. This is the only way to have true knowledge. So He apparently wanted us to have knowledge...through experience, and not to simply be dictated to, or worse, to follow Him blindly without knowledge. And as much as it may suck to live in sin, this makes sense to me.
Love,
Lori
Lori,
I read your response, I see the strength of your conviction. I see the strength of your desire for others to experience what you have experienced.
Many years ago I too had similar experiences and wished to share and advise based on those experiences.
What I found was, that the depth of your truth is so strong that it repells people because they can't possibly understand it with out actually experiencing it for them selves.
I found also that to rely on words or intellectual discussion led only to circles, thus I dropped any mention of that which required words as the only testimony.
I took a long look at the events that were Jesus for example and I realised that to accept those events as stated in the bible unfortunately diminishes those events.
The logic that is often used in the bible limits Gods abilities to act in a sane and rational way. So therefore the bible is a poor indication of that which is God.
In the second book we have a man that ends up on a cross. The son of God sacrificed when this is not necessary. God is much more smarter than to require the painful sacrifice of a single man to prove his love for mankind.
If you go back and re-read your posts and do so imagining that the bible doesn't exist on this planet.
Center yourself in your own revelations, understand how mankind can only take words and use them in distorted ways to serve self interests and self fears.
Place no condition on what you believe and what you know. And have faith in your own relationship with God and know that all will be fine in the end.
Go sit under a tree somewhere and feel what you have, and realise that you do not have to do anything.
"And when God came to town the first thing he did was order all bibles to be destroyed and a new bible to be written, because the bible was his greatest liability, If only because the words of the past are words of the past, and only words of the NOW are relevant "
I read your response, I see the strength of your conviction. I see the strength of your desire for others to experience what you have experienced.
Many years ago I too had similar experiences and wished to share and advise based on those experiences.
What I found was, that the depth of your truth is so strong that it repells people because they can't possibly understand it with out actually experiencing it for them selves.
I found also that to rely on words or intellectual discussion led only to circles, thus I dropped any mention of that which required words as the only testimony.
I took a long look at the events that were Jesus for example and I realised that to accept those events as stated in the bible unfortunately diminishes those events.
The logic that is often used in the bible limits Gods abilities to act in a sane and rational way. So therefore the bible is a poor indication of that which is God.
In the second book we have a man that ends up on a cross. The son of God sacrificed when this is not necessary. God is much more smarter than to require the painful sacrifice of a single man to prove his love for mankind.
If you go back and re-read your posts and do so imagining that the bible doesn't exist on this planet.
Center yourself in your own revelations, understand how mankind can only take words and use them in distorted ways to serve self interests and self fears.
Place no condition on what you believe and what you know. And have faith in your own relationship with God and know that all will be fine in the end.
Go sit under a tree somewhere and feel what you have, and realise that you do not have to do anything.
"And when God came to town the first thing he did was order all bibles to be destroyed and a new bible to be written, because the bible was his greatest liability, If only because the words of the past are words of the past, and only words of the NOW are relevant "
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Yorda said:
Yorda,
I wanted to apologize for asking you that question. It was a flippant and callous remark. I shouldn't have inquired in that manner...maybe not inquired at all. I had read some of your posts and seemed to recognize "the voice". See, I don't believe that aliens are what most people think they are, but that the abduction phenomenon is a spiritual one. You are obviously enlightened by some spiritual source.
Love,
Lori
Hi Quantum Quack,
Quote QQ:
"The logic that is often used in the bible limits Gods abilities to act in a sane and rational way. So therefore the bible is a poor indication of that which is God.
In the second book we have a man that ends up on a cross. The son of God sacrificed when this is not necessary. God is much more smarter than to require the painful sacrifice of a single man to prove his love for mankind.
If you go back and re-read your posts and do so imagining that the bible doesn't exist on this planet.
Center yourself in your own revelations, understand how mankind can only take words and use them in distorted ways to serve self interests and self fears.
Place no condition on what you believe and what you know. And have faith in your own relationship with God and know that all will be fine in the end.
Go sit under a tree somewhere and feel what you have, and realise that you do not have to do anything."
Good to hear your words, I can absolutely relate. Many years ago, when trying to find the answers to why so many cruel events had happened to me, I received the understanding that the simple answer was just "because". It had nothing to do with god, sin or bad luck. Pathetic as it may sound, this insight changed my life. I could break out of "victim" mode and fall effortlessly into "grateful" mode. So simply put, in my humble opinion, religion and its accompanying dogma create nothing but distance between man and god. Religion absolutely limits god to the human arena.
Ahem.
Quote QQ:
"The logic that is often used in the bible limits Gods abilities to act in a sane and rational way. So therefore the bible is a poor indication of that which is God.
In the second book we have a man that ends up on a cross. The son of God sacrificed when this is not necessary. God is much more smarter than to require the painful sacrifice of a single man to prove his love for mankind.
If you go back and re-read your posts and do so imagining that the bible doesn't exist on this planet.
Center yourself in your own revelations, understand how mankind can only take words and use them in distorted ways to serve self interests and self fears.
Place no condition on what you believe and what you know. And have faith in your own relationship with God and know that all will be fine in the end.
Go sit under a tree somewhere and feel what you have, and realise that you do not have to do anything."
Good to hear your words, I can absolutely relate. Many years ago, when trying to find the answers to why so many cruel events had happened to me, I received the understanding that the simple answer was just "because". It had nothing to do with god, sin or bad luck. Pathetic as it may sound, this insight changed my life. I could break out of "victim" mode and fall effortlessly into "grateful" mode. So simply put, in my humble opinion, religion and its accompanying dogma create nothing but distance between man and god. Religion absolutely limits god to the human arena.
Ahem.
It is good to hear someone else shares a point of view, Stretched.
I have often argued that religion re-inforces the separated state of man and God rather than brings us all together.
When I was a kid learning about religion and standing in a school church service the priest asked all us kids to pray and I said to my self, If I have to pray to be heard then something aint right in ole' heaven, as God hears everything.........maybe I should write my prayers down and post them to my self...[chuckle] at least I would get to know what I prayed.....ha
The Christian idea of God does limit God terribly and so to do most religions.
In the main they must think God is an imbicile, an entity that has no intelligence, which funnilly enough isn't that far from the truth I reckon, in that God needs not intelligence as he IS intelligence.
The externalising of God by man is in the middle of the whole problem.
We pass the buck, we blame and thank something that we think is separate from us yet all the time it IS us.
Why is there suffering ? Because God chooses to suffer. Why do we suffer?Because we choose to suffer.
God suffers with us have no doubt. When you suffer the news of sadistic crimes and suffer so too does God. When you don't suffer from the news of sadistic crimes well neither does God.
So in this way God is suffering just like you and you and you and me.
This is my take on it......
If you feel the pain of someone elses suffering or even your own then just remember God is suffering though you as well.