touche, SnakeLord 
The Reasons Jews Do Not Believe Jesus Was G-d....
- Thread starter The Devil Inside
- Start date
Woody said:Why don't you do something constructive -- like volunteering to rewrite the wikepedia? I have given enough examples of the false messiahs -- will you also defend Jim Jones, Father Divine, Moon, et al? Why don't you just accept the realistic fact that there are many false messiahs (the point I originally made), then get over it, and return to rational discussion instead of throwing red herrings at me. You do that a lot and it's distracting.
the point is, you posted false information.
in the thirty or so posts i have read of you....you have not said or posted a single constructive thing.
do your research if you want to seem knowledgable on the subject. i have studied biblical history for the last 12 years exhaustively. you are no christian. you are a troll.
by the way, does anyone want to worship Mr. T with me?
SnakeLord said:
It's a cop-out to blame Adam and Eve for your own accountabilities. Adam and Eve failed. Adam blamed it on Eve, Eve blamed it on the snake. The snake blamed it on nobody. A&E both "copped-out." It's human nature to blame someone else for their own accountabilities.
We aren't accountable for what they did. That is NOT why we need forgiveness. Each person is accountable for him/herself.
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The Devil Inside said:
You can't get to the main point and this is a big problem -- you fail to communicate at the basic level. I used the wikepedia as a reference, and you have not disproved any of it -- is this just more of your opinion? If you looked at it you would see it is quite detailed in it's explanation of the "false messiah" you admire so much. If you have a beef about it why don't you fuss at the author of it? And what about your post about JW's and Sheol? That was your opinion too, but it was wrong. You expect perfection from others but not yourself.
A civil discussion with you is not possible. You go to my ignore list.
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actually, my posts about sheol was correct. and i ADMITTED that i had been misinformed when i posted about JW's.
you are so christian. its a disappointing fact that you probably represent well over half of the blind evangelicals in america.
like i said, when you can read the texts in their original language...come see me.
until then, KEEP me on your ignore list.
somehow i doubt you care enough to actually learn hebrew.
you are so christian. its a disappointing fact that you probably represent well over half of the blind evangelicals in america.
like i said, when you can read the texts in their original language...come see me.
until then, KEEP me on your ignore list.
somehow i doubt you care enough to actually learn hebrew.
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M*W: Woody's buzz word is "cop-out." When he gets backed into the intellectual corner, he claims everybody else is a "cop-out!" When confronted with additional topics to explain, Woody says, "the debate is over!"
Let's take a look at this:
(1) Woody represents the xian cause.
(2) Woody cannot debate the issues.
(3) Woody doesn't do any research.
(4) Woody never learns anything.
(5) Woody has nothing to offer the forum.
(6) Why is Woody still here?
M*W: Woody's buzz word is "cop-out." When he gets backed into the intellectual corner, he claims everybody else is a "cop-out!" When confronted with additional topics to explain, Woody says, "the debate is over!"
Let's take a look at this:
(1) Woody represents the xian cause.
(2) Woody cannot debate the issues.
(3) Woody doesn't do any research.
(4) Woody never learns anything.
(5) Woody has nothing to offer the forum.
(6) Why is Woody still here?
If you actually read the text, you'll see it does not come down to "blame", but honesty. god asked them what happened. Are you suggesting they should have lied to god instead of telling the truth?
The serpent tempts eve and she then gives some fruit to adam. When god asks them they tell him the exact 100% undeniable truth of the matter. I find it quite perverse that you would see issue with them telling the truth to god. I guess, being the good christian that you are, you would have just lied to him instead?
No Woody, they told the absolute truth. Is that not the moral thing to do? Given that they now understood good and evil, being honest would have been the only appropriate way to go. It's amazing to see what benefit the fruit actually gave - and until they had eaten it, god saying "don't eat the fruit" would have been utterly meaningless. Having eaten it they showed greater morals than you obviously would in the same situation.
But we clearly are. I did not get my turn in the garden to see if, unlike them, I could avoid eating the fruit. No such joy for me, I was born with all those 'sins' in place - an integral unescapable part of me, and now for some reason you guys tell me I need to apologise for that, apologise for being who I am - all because two indviduals that made their own decisions.
Of course perhaps instead I am being punished or forced into apology simply because you're the kind of guy that would lie to god. Would it be fair for people in 6,000 years time to have to apologise and repent all because you decided to lie to god? It is exactly the same as people here asking you to apologise for the actions of christians back in the dark ages.
the story of adam and eve is often described as denigrating to women.
in traditional jewish thought however, that is incorrect.
there were several mistakes made by those two, not just the eating of the fruit.
1. they ate the fruit.
2. they hid from G-d.
3. when confronted, eve blames the serpent (actually the hebrew word is "nachash", which can mean "shining spirit" as well). she didnt take responsibility for her actions (a VERY important concept within judaism).
4. when confronted, adam blames his transgression on eve. by this action, he shows ungratefulness for the gift G-d gave him (woman). basically he said "the woman you gave me was faulty, and she affected me!" being ungrateful for G-d's blessings is one of the gravest things you can do in judaism.
just a few new things to discuss i suppose.
in traditional jewish thought however, that is incorrect.
there were several mistakes made by those two, not just the eating of the fruit.
1. they ate the fruit.
2. they hid from G-d.
3. when confronted, eve blames the serpent (actually the hebrew word is "nachash", which can mean "shining spirit" as well). she didnt take responsibility for her actions (a VERY important concept within judaism).
4. when confronted, adam blames his transgression on eve. by this action, he shows ungratefulness for the gift G-d gave him (woman). basically he said "the woman you gave me was faulty, and she affected me!" being ungrateful for G-d's blessings is one of the gravest things you can do in judaism.
just a few new things to discuss i suppose.
Without any knowledge of good or evil, there's no valid reason as to why they shouldn't.
After eating the fruit they knew what evil was when they saw it.
I have explained the issue with these on my last post. You too seem to be stating that they should have instead just lied to god. Their explanation of the events was 100% truthful and accurate. No being could ask for more.
I think you are mistaken. This myth, and especially the serpent (a symbol of the Goddess) was specifically designed (or was a reflection of) a cultural devaluation of women. In the Goddess culture that the Hebrews replaced, women were seen as the givers of life, and thus played a central role in creation.
The garden is a symbol of the first agricultural innovations.
The woman is blamed, since according to the Jews, women are not supposed to have any interest in knowledge. This is in order to maintain dominance over them.
S/L says:
I can understand how you feel about this because I used to feel the same way. I had resentment toward God because I am living with the consequences of something done by someone else. However, this is an unfortunate byproduct of sin -- other people suffer for the wrong that we do. That's the way sin works. My freedom gives me the capability to do harm to someone else or not.
I can not change the past, but I can do something about the future. All other people are given the same opportunity to change their future, and they are accountable for their final choice.
You could say God was responsible for A&E's mistake, after all he created them, he gave them the choice to obey or disobey, he knew what the outcome would be, therefore He did it knowing very well that they would fail -- but accountability doesn't really work that way. When someone is given responsibility they are given a choice to succeed or to fail.
Let's listen to what Adam said according to Genesis:
Reading between the lines here. Adam is saying "God, you know that woman you gave me, she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it. Everything would have been just fine, God, if you didn't give me that woman. It's your fault, God, because men can't say no." Adam never admitted he was accountable because he wasn't man enough, instead he picked on the weaker sex.
Then Eve,
In other words, she's too big a fool to be held accountable. Ironically this comes after her quest for wisdom.
It looks like they copped-out to me.
I can understand how you feel about this because I used to feel the same way. I had resentment toward God because I am living with the consequences of something done by someone else. However, this is an unfortunate byproduct of sin -- other people suffer for the wrong that we do. That's the way sin works. My freedom gives me the capability to do harm to someone else or not.
I can not change the past, but I can do something about the future. All other people are given the same opportunity to change their future, and they are accountable for their final choice.
You could say God was responsible for A&E's mistake, after all he created them, he gave them the choice to obey or disobey, he knew what the outcome would be, therefore He did it knowing very well that they would fail -- but accountability doesn't really work that way. When someone is given responsibility they are given a choice to succeed or to fail.
Let's listen to what Adam said according to Genesis:
Reading between the lines here. Adam is saying "God, you know that woman you gave me, she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it. Everything would have been just fine, God, if you didn't give me that woman. It's your fault, God, because men can't say no." Adam never admitted he was accountable because he wasn't man enough, instead he picked on the weaker sex.
Then Eve,
In other words, she's too big a fool to be held accountable. Ironically this comes after her quest for wisdom.
It looks like they copped-out to me.
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Clearly you cannot and do not understand how I "feel". I am an atheist Woody. That means I have about as much resentment for god's as I do for leprechauns. The facts are that there was no Adam and Eve in a garden, there are no such thing as talking snakes, there are no gods, etc etc etc.
Kindly do not get distracted and think that my ability to debate issues means I have feelings towards non-existant entities.
My debate to you is in direct correlation to you stating that it's a "cop out" for you to take any of the blame of people you never knew, that did things you don't agree to. It is the exact same case here.
That sin only exists because of the sins of two people. Without their error, (and the tempting from a snake that somehow mysteriously managed to make it's way into the garden, give itself the ability to speak and the nature to deceive), we would be in the garden of eden... no?
So, unless we are suffering for their mistakes some 10 millennia after their deaths, we should surely all be there to see if we too would fail? Given your earlier statements, it remains a "cop-out" for us to be bearing the brunt of their 'crimes'. If it isn't a "cop-out", then I would urge you to apologise sincerely for the mass crimes of christians back in the dark ages.
This only works if the person is able to understand the responsibility, which Adam and Eve clearly were not. If a child drunk a bottle of bleach, you can hardly blame them - but the person that put the bleach there. A young child is incapable of understanding the consequence and responsibility that comes with having a bottle of bleach. In the same way, Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good or evil - and hence could never have made a responsible decision.
Why not put "reading between the lines" aside for a second and just concentrate on reading the actual lines? K let's go..
'She also gave some to her husband who was with her and he ate it'.
Now, once more look at what Adam said:
"she gave me of the tree, and I did eat."
That is absolute 100% accurate, 100% honest. Again I can only ask why you would prefer him to have lied.. to god of all beings?
Utter nonsense. He showed he was accountable by saying; "I ate it". He did not say someone forced it in his mouth, but clearly, accurately and honestly stated that she "gave" him some and he ate it. There is nothing in his statement that implies he was forced into anything.
Woody, do not think that making up your own text in any way diminishes or changes the actual text.
Set aside "other words" for a moment and look at the actual words:
'Then the snake said to the woman, "No!......" .. the woman saw that the tree was good...'
(long quote)
Now look at what Eve said:
“ And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. ”
Again this is 100% accurate, and 100% honest. Why would prefer eve to have lied.. to god of all beings?
That's what happens when you feel the need to rewrite the bible.
S/L said about the end time prophesy of all men "beating their breasts"
I'm searching the New kjv and I'm not finding the verse about men "beating their breasts" as an end time prophesy. Could you tell me chapter and verse? Nahum 2:7 uses the phrase, but I don't see it otherwise.
I'm searching the New kjv and I'm not finding the verse about men "beating their breasts" as an end time prophesy. Could you tell me chapter and verse? Nahum 2:7 uses the phrase, but I don't see it otherwise.
You should be aware of that by now. Aside from the odd fundie here and there, does anyone take it literally?
Now you're being silly and, I hasten to add, avoiding the discussion. I don't believe Lord of the Rings is a true story, yet I can still discuss and debate the characters and events in it quite happily.
I personally think they shouldn't have left the ring with frodo. Hobbits annoy me.
See Woody?
Now, is it possible you could get to the actual debate?
Again, this is what happens when you rewrite the bible as opposed to looking at the actual text. In both instances they say: "I ate it", which is admitting that they are accountable.
I'm trying to think how much worse the punishment would have been if they had have just lied to god like you clearly wanted them to do.
Why? My quote says, in the very first sentence, that it's from the njv - not the nkjv.
SnakeLord said:
they were told not to.
SnakeLord said:
are you implying that they actually saw G-d, snakelord?
SnakeLord said:
no, they shouldnt have lied. but instead of being apologetic, they were ungrateful. you have a really interesting interpretation of the events, but you need to be able to actually read it in hebrew to understand. it isnt about 2 naked idiots eating apples in a garden. it is a metaphor for the searching of knowledge by humanity in general.
With no knowledge of good or evil, it really doesn't matter what they were told not to do.
Certainly, he was walking through the garden after all.
Once again they were honest and 100% accurate. From looking at the text, do you deny that they told the story accurately and honestly?
Well there's a worthless assumption... Who said I can't?
Admittedly my Hebrew isn't that good. Can you point out where it says that?
snakelord, you just argue for the sake of arguing...just trust me about what the general consensus of jews inside judaism think of the story of genesis, ok? lol
android....EXACTLY. thats what i have been saying all along, in fancier words i suppose.
android....EXACTLY. thats what i have been saying all along, in fancier words i suppose.