The Reasons Jews Do Not Believe Jesus Was G-d....

[SnakeLord]

An interesting enough post, but there are a few issues and errors I would like to point out:

The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others..

You didn't see it with your own eyes or hear it with your own ears - and you are fully dependant upon the testimony of the person that wrote that specific chapter, (to which you can only make assumptions as to who). It's like me saying I saw Frodo throw the ring in the fires of mount doom with my own eyes.

Maimonides devotes most of the "Guide for the Perplexed" to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form.

But this does not hold true with the OT, where god takes physical form many times. One such example would be in the GofE where he takes a nice stroll, or when he dances in front of moses.

Sex in the proper context is one of the holiest acts we can perform.

Strange perhaps that the religious jews have sex between sheets, unable to look upon each other, (Fundie English jews at any rate). Also not for fun, but only to conceive, (from the case of the man killed by god for spilling his sperm). It's inaccurate to then state it's about "pleasure", when it isn't.

 

[The Devil Inside]

i am the WRONG fellow to be debating the validity of christianity with, on this forum. it is my life study.

 

[The Devil Inside]

An interesting enough post, but there are a few issues and errors I would like to point out:



You didn't see it with your own eyes or hear it with your own ears - and you are fully dependant upon the testimony of the person that wrote that specific chapter, (to which you can only make assumptions as to who). It's like me saying I saw Frodo throw the ring in the fires of mount doom with my own eyes.

witnessed by thousands of people all at once.

But this does not hold true with the OT, where god takes physical form many times. One such example would be in the GofE where he takes a nice stroll, or when he dances in front of moses.

the issue was whether G-d ever took a human form, which it was never written that he did, or would.

Strange perhaps that the religious jews have sex between sheets, unable to look upon each other, (Fundie English jews at any rate). Also not for fun, but only to conceive, (from the case of the man killed by god for spilling his sperm). It's inaccurate to then state it's about "pleasure", when it isn't.

i also find that to be a strange practice, as the Torah tells us to rejoice in life and all of the experiences which do not violate the laws.
"if given the chance to taste a new fruit, and you refuse...you will have to answer to your actions, after your earthly life."

 

[SnakeLord]

witnessed by thousands of people all at once

So claims the one person that wrote that specific chapter.

the issue was whether G-d ever took a human form, which it was never written that he did, or would

Excuse me, but you said "physical form":

"meaning that He assumes no physical form". Whether he appears as a cloud, rock, burning bush or human would still mean taking "physical form".

K?

"if given the chance to taste a new fruit, and you refuse...you will have to answer to your actions, after your earthly life."

Answer to your actions? Yeesh.. I wonder if 'right of choice' means anything.

 

[The Devil Inside]

the argument woody and i were having was about a human form though, snakelord.
k?

 

[spidergoat]

The Jews and Christians will be waiting for a messiah (or one to return) forever because it's an ingrained part of their culture, like a carrot on a stick tied to their heads. Because they were arguing about theology instead of cooperating against a greater evil, the Romans were able to destroy the holy land, rewrite the words of Jesus, and establish a "holy" empire called Catholicism that extorted treasure out of Europeans for more than a thousand years.

 

[SnakeLord]

?

It was from your first post..

Don't tell me people are now making 20 threads to handle one debate? Further to which, you stated you got all that stuff from about.com. Were they debating with Woody also?

I also take it you had no dispute with my other statements?

It's also worth noting that not only does the bible state we are made in his image and likeness, but he is also seen walking in the GofE, (implying that he has legs, and thus some kind of human/animal form). There are other instances aswell, but this shall suffice for now.

 

[The Devil Inside]

i was posting to woody about the divinity of jesus, and he asked me why jews dont believe in him as G-d. instead of destroying a thread about DARWIN with the subject, i created this thread.
the about.com article was relevant to the discussion. dont be belligerant if you want to talk to me. of course they werent debating with woody. what an asinine question.

im not sure what other statements you mean.

unfortunately, im off for the night. i have a dinner party to throw.
goodnight.

 

[SnakeLord]

the about.com article was relevant to the discussion. dont be belligerant if you want to talk to me.

And the about.com article mentioned that god assumes no "physical" form. It did not state or limit it to human form. You made a mistake, it happens.. no need to take it out on me. Thank you.

im not sure what other statements you mean.

Hmm, I wonder.

You made a statement that certain events were "witnessed by thousands of people all at once". My rebuttal to that is that you can only make that assumption on the word of the one person that claimed thousands witnessed it. Your claim has no valid merit.

 

[Woody]

and to answer your question about "the rest of jewry" "getting out of it"..... it is specifically stated in the mishna that if there is no temple, a graceful life will assure you a place with the almighty. no temple means no sacrifices. period.

outside of the temple, it is forbidden to kill animals for such an idea.
like i said: jews the world over will flock to the temple for the sacrifice, once it is built. it is a grave sin to not comply.
except noahide jews, of course.
btw...have you researched what noahide jews are, yet? or are you still lumping them with hereditary jews?

I've read a little about the Noahides, but I have only a few questions:

1) Which prophets in the Mishna or any other of your texts say it is not necessary to have a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins (to avoid judgement)?

Compare this to Moses:

Exodus 12:12,13 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.
And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

Also a NT reference:

Hebrews 9:19-23 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
(ref Exod 24:8) [And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.]


21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

-------------------------------------------

2) Why did the Jews stop doing this, because there was no temple when Moses performed it, nor was there a temple for any of the other patriarchs prior to Moses, and they all offered blood sacrifices?

 

[Qorl]

A hero always has to die to change the future. How many real heroes in this planet pass the age of 33?

 

[Woody]

DI said:

a christian is supposed to emulate christ, right? then why arent you jewish, woody? do you observe the sabbath on the seventh day? do you eat pork?

please clarify your beliefs.

Do you eat pork?

-- you betcha

My Barbecue Website

Jesus said that it's not what goes in the mouth (food) that defiles a man, rather it is what comes out of the mouth that defiles a man (speech).

do you observe the sabbath on the seventh day?

No, I am not a seventh day adventist . Jesus proclaimed that he was Lord of the Sabbath (Mat 12:8, Mark 2:28, Luke 6:5) as He performed miracles, and changed our view of the sabbath.

His healing work on the sabbath started his death sentence (from Matthew Chapter 12:

For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day. And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue: And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out?
How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.

14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.

Jesus really hated what the jewish leaders had done to the sabbath and other practices to enslave people with the law.

 

[Mosheh Thezion]

ah... yeah see.. THE PROBLEM IS... they just dont realise that he did...
do everything he was supposed to...

by cause and effect... he was the cause.. and the effect was Christianity...

which is the only reason jews have prospered over the last 1500 years...

and is the only reason ISRAEL exists today.

once we come to see this simple truth... we find that he did the job...

2000 years ago.. and it continues.

-MT

 

[cciissccoo]

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.
2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH

Have you read the book of daniel?

 

[The Devil Inside]

yep.

 

[The Devil Inside]

and i stand by the statement that jesus did not qualify.
remember, im not a jesus basher. but he did NOT fulfill all of the prophecies, so the christians need a SECOND coming of the messiah......which is written NOWHERE in the prophecies.

 

[Mosheh Thezion]

wrong... jesus said he would return... dah.

-MT

 

[SnakeLord]

"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

He's only a couple of thousand years late.. lol.

 

[Woody]

"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

He's only a couple of thousand years late.. lol.

From Luke: So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.


The church age (Kingdom of God ) began with salvation through Christ.

"This generation" is the generation that experiences all the events previously described, which all clearly have not come to pass yet. The reformation of Israel is one of the required events, and this event occured after 1900. Also the rebuilding of the Jewish temple must occur before "all things" are fulfilled. If the Jews attempt to rebuild the Jewish temple, they must destroy the Dome of the Rock , one of Islam's holiest shrines that was put there centuries later than the prophesy. Odviously this would escalate into an all-out arab-jew war.

Sometimes the Kingdom of God is confused with the Kingdom of Heaven discussed in Matthew. The meaning is debatable though that is not critical to the point you made.

So in other words, the Kingdom of God is here on earth "now", as experienced through a new relationship that no longer requires a temple in Jerusalem and animal sacrifices. It began with the crucifiction and resurrection of Christ and elimination of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem (an obsolete relic). It advances with each subsequent stage in cluding the second coming and millineal reighn (which have not occured yet).

After the second coming of Christ there will be a millineal reign lasting 1000 years. Christ will be physically on the earth for the 1000 years, but the earth will not be destroyed until after that. Jehovah's Witnesses believe that the millineum began in 1914. They are the only denomination that thinks this way.

As promised by scripture, there is no way a human can predict these events in advance. So if someone says they have it figured out -- they don't. Hence the ambigous interpretations.

The information presented here is for information purposes and I don't necessarily agree with all of it.

 

[SnakeLord]

Sometimes the Kingdom of God is confused with the Kingdom of Heaven discussed in Matthew. Apparantly they are not they same.

Matthew: "In truth I tell you, before this generation has passed away, all these things will have taken place."

This includes:

1. The second coming of the son of man
2. The sun being darkened
3. Moon wont give it's light
4. The stars will fall from the sky
5. Powers of the heavens will be shaken
6. All people on earth will beat their breasts.

As stated on my previous post:

He's only a couple of thousand years late - which was made in direct response to Mosheh's: "jesus said he would return".