The Reasons Jews Do Not Believe Jesus Was G-d....

[Woody]

Matthew: "In truth I tell you, before this generation has passed away, all these things will have taken place."

This includes:

1. The second coming of the son of man
2. The sun being darkened
3. Moon wont give it's light
4. The stars will fall from the sky
5. Powers of the heavens will be shaken
6. All people on earth will beat their breasts.

As stated on my previous post:

He's only a couple of thousand years late - which was made in direct response to Mosheh's: "jesus said he would return".

These subjects have been evaluated for centuries, it's nothing new. It's a question of who "this generation" is. Is it everyone in the world that was alive at the time the statement was made? Or is it everyone that witnesses the aforementioned events first?

ps: I never heard of "beating the breasts" as a requirement. Are you using the King Kong version of the bible? lol

 

[The Devil Inside]

I've read a little about the Noahides, but I have only a few questions:

1) Which prophets in the Mishna or any other of your texts say it is not necessary to have a blood sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins (to avoid judgement)?

"And you shall call upon Me, and go, and pray to
Me, and I will hearken to you. And you shall seek Me, and find Me,
when you shall search for Me with all your heart" (Jeremiah 29:13)
also:
I Kings 8:46-50

also:
Hosea 14:3
===========i already posted this. read ALL the posts, not just the ones that support your claims.
-------------------------------------------

2) Why did the Jews stop doing this, because there was no temple when Moses performed it, nor was there a temple for any of the other patriarchs prior to Moses, and they all offered blood sacrifices?

the jews had the ark of the covenant with them. jews believe that the ark contained the word of G-d, and this was acceptable for the presence of sacrifice. do you really not know the "old testament"?
i reiterate, just to make sure you dont miss it:
(Jeremiah 29:13)
also:
I Kings 8:46-50

also:
Hosea 14:3

 

[SnakeLord]

These subjects have been evaluated for centuries, it's nothing new.

I never made claim or hinted that it was new. After all this time and people still can't answer it. Instead they make pathetic claims as opposed to just accepting that the quote points to absolute failure of jesus's supposed return.

Jan or Jenyar, (I always get those two confused), even went to such lengths to say he was talking to the olive trees, and not humans.

It's a question of who "this generation" is.

There is no question or doubt as to who 'this generation' refers to, (except for those that realise they need to come up with some quick excuse for why jesus has failed to show, and why the points listed above have failed to come to pass).

Or is it everyone that witnesses the aforementioned events first?

What would give you that idea, (other than the fact none of the claims have happened)?

ps: I never heard of "beating the breasts" as a requirement.

I never mentioned requirement. The listed items were what would happen, (whether they be required or not). None of these things happened. K?

 

[Woody]

S/L said:

There is no question or doubt as to who 'this generation' refers to, (except for those that realise they need to come up with some quick excuse for why jesus has failed to show, and why the points listed above have failed to come to pass).

The Book of Revelation must have been St. John's "excuse" as you say, since he was there when Jesus made the original statement concerning "this generation", and Revelation was written to explain the second coming after all of the other disciples were already dead. Without the book of Revelation you might have a point, but it is in the bible, and John is the last survivor of the original 12 disciples.

OK what generation is it? For centuries, christians have believed "this generation" is very likely the one that sees Israel reborn, and this event happened at the end of WWII. It is the hope of every generation that it (the 2nd coming) will come to pass in their lifetime.

This includes the first christians -- and they knew what Jesus said because they were there. OK, let's assume Jesus really meant "their generation" would see all the things come to pass -- then his prophesy clearly and blatantly failed from the get-go. Their cult, like so many others based on false claims would have died immediately -- like Jim Jones, Father Divine and others like them through the ages. Does anybody still believe they are God as they both claimed? In short the first christians would have realized that Jesus lied to them and christianity would have died then. So, logically that issue was resolved long before any of us were born. There must be an alternative explanation.

from Matthew's text:

So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Clearly from Matthew it is the generation that sees all these things. The list includes:

vs 5 and 6, 23 & 24: many false prophets that claim to be christ and are not. (this is more frequent in our modern age).

vs 14 says the gospel will be preached in all the world, so that all can hear it. This was impossible in biblical times, but it is now more realistic with modern technology, language translations, and overcoming political barriers. China for example only recently opened to the gospel. There are still some languages that don't have translations of the bible. Wycliffe is working on this. There remain 380 million people on this earth that do not have a bible translation in their language -- hence vs. 14 clearly has not been fulfilled - yet.

vs 15 The abomination of desolation must occur with the Jewish temple, which Jesus already said would be destroyed first.

John wrote the book of Revelations after most of that generation was passed away. He was very old, living in exile on the island of Patmos . The book of Revelation details the second coming clearly after that generation was already gone.

ps: "beating the breasts" might be in King Kong's but I never heard of it in King Jame's. How did you come up with it? Was it meant for humor?

 

[SnakeLord]

OK what generation is it?

That has already been answered. It was the generation that were standing there listening to jesus say some of them would not have died before all those things took place.

If he meant He would show up in their lifetime then it should have happened in their lifetime -- right?

Should have, but didn't.

Then christianity would have ended in its infancy because of failed prophesy right from the get-go

Alas, it never works out that way. Without checking up, wasn't it the 7th day adventists that put the end times in like 1930 and when it didn't happen said "oops" and just changed the date? Pride, the need to believe etc keep people believing even when something is shown to be false.

In 2006 people even try and dispute evolution.. That pretty much sums up a large portion of humans. They're idiots.

Like all the other so-called "prophets" that made claims that didn't come to pass -- their cult following would have died immediately.

Such as?

Clearly from Matthew it is the generation that sees all these things.

Try again.

ps: "beating the breasts" might be in King Kong's but I never heard of it in King Jame's. How did you come up with it? Was it meant for humor?

Ok, I didn't realise you were not aware that there are many different translations of the bible. Really, you shouldn't have even had to ask.

 

[Woody]

“ OK what generation is it? ”

That has already been answered. It was the generation that were standing there listening to jesus say some of them would not have died before all those things took place.

I have already explained as well.

Ok, I didn't realise you were not aware that there are many different translations of the bible. Really, you shouldn't have even had to ask.

Ok you are getting defensive -- of course I know there are a lot of translations out there. I just finished explaining about Wycliffe translators. And I never heard of "beating on the breasts" as a fulfilment of prophesy; perhaps this is where the misunderstanding comes from. I don't know which version of the bible you are using, but it sounds like it is in error. Otherwise I would not have asked.

“ Like all the other so-called "prophets" that made claims that didn't come to pass -- their cult following would have died immediately. ”

Such as?

Such as those I provided and many more. Wait until Sun Myung Moon dies and see what happens to that cult. It shouldn't be much longer -- he is 86 years old. The Moonies will find out he's not the Messiah, though he claims to be. He lied to them -- that's why he's so wealthy -- Christ never lived like that. :bugeye:

Here's a list of some Messiah claimants from the Wikipedia, since you asked:


5 Other historically significant Jewish Messiah claimants
5.1 Josephus's report of civil unrest in the first century
5.2 Menahem ben Judah
5.3 Bar Kokhba
5.4 Moses of Crete
5.5 In 7th century Persia
5.6 The Syrian Serene
5.7 Messiahs during the crusades
5.8 David Alroy
5.9 In Yemen
5.10 Abraham Abulafia
5.11 Nissim ben Abraham
5.12 Moses Botarel of Cisneros
5.13 Asher Lemmlein
5.14 David Reuveni and Solomon Molko
5.15 Isaac Luria
5.16 Sabbatai Zevi
5.17 Sabbethaian pseudo-messiahs
5.18 Mordecai Mokia
5.19 Jacob Frank
5.20 Menachem Mendel Schneerson

There are plenty more of them, and they're all dead with no followers. Perhaps their followers didn't have enough "pride," as you say, to carry on the torch, but I don't think so. Here's a Clue -- a lie is nothing to be proud of ***hint ***hint.

Snakelord, Have you ever heard of of these "messiahs" before? lol.

Pride, the need to believe etc keep people believing even when something is shown to be false.

Then some of the other "messiahs" should have believers as well, but they don't.

Should anyone be surprised? Jesus told the prophesy:

Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

There are still more to come, with even stronger powers of deception and the antichrist will be the last. It's unfortunate that Jim Jones' followers didn't listen to Jesus' warning.

 

[Michael]

taken from an article i was reading on about.com. all of the information that is in this article is 100% pure fact.

1) What year was the Torah canonized?

2) Historical fact - there was no Jesus character.

 

[SnakeLord]

Ok you are getting defensive -- of course I know there are a lot of translations out there.

A strange notion. I wasn't getting 'defensive' at all, I just asked if you were ignorant of differing translations given that for some bizarre reason you asked me if I was being funny instead of asking me what translation I was using. You even went into your "king kong lol" speech. If you act like an idiot, don't complain when people treat you like one.

I don't know which version of the bible you are using, but it sounds like it is in error.

The bible in error? Should I burn it? I have many versions: kjv, nkjv, niv, njv.

Wait until Sun Myung Moon dies and see what happens to that cult. It shouldn't be much longer -- he is 86 years old. The Moonies will find out he's not the Messiah, though he claims to be. He lied to them -- that's why he's so wealthy -- Christ never lived like that.

But you see how easily people fall for nonsense? From koresh, (that still has a, (albeit small), following).. to jones, to jesus..

Of course jesus was bound to win the battle. The early followers went around in earnest slaughtering anyone that believed differently.

Here's a Clue -- a lie is nothing to be proud of ***hint ***hint

Then why would you go round being proud to be christian?

Snakelord, Have you ever heard of of these "messiahs" before?

They probably would have remained more commonly known if their followers had have spent an era killing a load of witches and anyone that didn't believe them.

Then some of the other "messiahs" should have believers as well, but they don't.

I'm curious as to why you've changed it from "prophets" to "messiahs". Anyway, prophets still exist and still have followings - 7th ay adventists, koresh, jones yada yada.

 

[qwerty mob]

taken from an article i was reading on about.com. all of the information that is in this article is 100% pure fact. with my hebrew texts in front of me, i checked the validity. not a single mistake.
enjoy.

Awesome.

Let's not forget either that they simply had no record of such a guy in the first place; neither in the baraitots, mishnah, nor talmuds.

 

[Woody]

The early followers went around in earnest slaughtering anyone that believed differently.

Rather the early followers went around spreading the gospel, and were slaughtered by others for doing it, "all for a lie" as you say. All the disciples except John were executed, because they were "too proud" as you say. The apostle Paul was beheaded as well. Then there are those early christians that died in the roman colliseum to entertain the romans --this is hardly the picture you are painting. Christian Persecution is well known and well documented. Only after the Catholic Church perverted christianity, were people killed for not belieiving their brand of it, for which many fellowbelievers were killed as heretics because they believed a bible rather than the pope.

The bible in error? Should I burn it? I have many versions: kjv, nkjv, niv, njv.

I only asked about anyone of them (bible versiosn) that says "beating the breasts" is one of Jesus' prophesies concerning the end times, but you choose to be slippery as a snake. You would like to write them all off with my statement by twisting it perhaps, rather than stating the truth. I only asked for the version that made the statement -- it is not in the kjv because I've already done a phrase search. Why do I keep asking? You must not have the information on your cue card from the author of the "points that disprove the bible," or maybe you can't get in touch with him -- I don't know why you're stalling out.

 

[The Devil Inside]

im not going to go through the lengthy "quote" about previous messianic claimants, woody...but i know for a FACT that at least ONE of those listed NEVER claimed to be the messiah: isaac luria.
he is a particularly interesting man to me, due to his philosophies and such. he was a humble, generous man.......WHO NEVER CLAIMED TO BE THE MESSIAH. not even close.

 

[The Devil Inside]

Awesome.

Let's not forget either that they simply had no record of such a guy in the first place; neither in the baraitots, mishnah, nor talmuds.

you mean jesus?

 

[The Devil Inside]

1) What year was the Torah canonized?

2) Historical fact - there was no Jesus character.

lol, the Torah was not "canonized"....it was translated into the septuagint, along with other texts, and pretty much kept in decent shape.

 

[The Devil Inside]

1) What year was the Torah canonized?

2) Historical fact - there was no Jesus character.

no, it is not a historical fact that there was no jesus. it is an opinion based on lack of evidence. the fact that the bible is the most published book in the history of man, and that there are historical accounts of christians 10 years after his supposed death tells me that he probably DID exist.
again, thats an opinion (mine).
there is a difference between opinion and fact.

 

[qwerty mob]

you mean jesus?

Ofcourse.

The only two remotely similar references were to a "Yesu" and "Yeshua"- but are wrong place, wrong time, not the same; definitely not the Jesus of Xanity.

 

[The Devil Inside]

well, i believe that jesus was a real guy, but he was never referenced in ANY hebrew text before his birth.
again, i reiterate: regardless of the wonderful teachings the man had, he did not fulfill all of the prophecies of the messiah. therefore, it stands to reason that he was not the messiah. whether someone thinks a messianic teaching is b.s. or not, it is ludicrous for anyone to think he was the jewish messiah. nowhere does it teach that the messiah will come back from the dead millenia after he "dies for our sins" (another section of christian faith that makes no sense to me).

 

[SnakeLord]

Rather the early followers went around spreading the gospel, and were slaughtered by others for doing it, "all for a lie" as you say

In this instance one could ask why. If god had come down to earth, shown his miracles, and sacrificed himself for the sake of mankind, why were these people killed? These people must have found more credibility in worship of sun gods - which surely points at the utter worthlessness of the whole jesus story. Eventually, like any good cult, jesus worship started to gain ground - and in turn went around killing everyone else. Such is religious belief. (and indeed your following quote shows you guys can't even agree with each other, or your own bible):

"for which many fellowbelievers were killed as heretics because they believed a bible rather than the pope"

I only asked about anyone of them (bible versiosn) that says "beating the breasts" is one of Jesus' prophesies concerning the end times, but you choose to be slippery as a snake.

Don't try and twist this on me, and be all 'woodery as a woodpecker'.

Once again my advice to you is that if you wish to be taken seriously, you must show that you're being serious. All I got from your post was: "what, you're using the king kong version? lol". I'm sorry, but given that statement of yours, I didn't realise you had genuine interest. Act like a fool, I'll treat you like one.

To clear it up, it's from the njv - which was put together in 1985. Considering the kjv was done some 400 years ago, it stands to reason that the njv would be more accurate, (given mankinds great advances over the past half millennium). It's also worth stating that if the kjv was indeed accurate there would have been no need to make a New kjv, (which seemingly corrects all the errors from the kjv).

Further to which, I personally fail to see the serious issue with 'beating the breasts'. It doesn't imply that men look like "king kong", or tarzan for that matter. The statement is akin to "pulling your hair out". No, you don't actually pull your hair out, but most semi-intelligent individuals realise what it's actually getting at.

Hope that's helped.

 

[spidergoat]

The Jews never took Jesus seriously because he proposed a radically different style of social organization that would have robbed the priesthood of power and placed women on an equal level with men. Interestingly, the brand of Christianity that became popular in Roman times also ignored his more radical teachings in favor of a slightly updated but still male dominated hierarchy.

 

[Woody]

S/L said

Such is religious belief. (and indeed your following quote shows you guys can't even agree with each other, or your own bible):

"for which many fellowbelievers were killed as heretics because they believed a bible rather than the pope"

Woody shakes his head. So in your eyes we're all the same, and my church is really out to kill everybody. (Deluded old f___) Yes indeed I know I sound like a killer. And the folks in the choir are notorious murderers.

 

[SnakeLord]

Woody shakes his head. So in your eyes we're all the same, and my church is really out to kill everybody. (Deluded old f___)

Umm...... no. I thought we were talking like a couple of millennia ago? That was the topic of conversation no?